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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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August 14, 2008 3:26 PM

Ibanez, Washburn staying put

Posted by Geoff Baker

UPDATE (4:51 p.m.): So apparently, the Twins did put in claims on both Ibanez and Washburn, but only got to negotiate on Washburn because they had a better record than the Tigers -- who also claimed Ibanez. The Twins move was not to "block" a Washburn claim by the White Sox. The Twins are in dire need on an 8th inning guy, sort of like the M's last season. What they want to do is pick up another starter and move one of their current starters into the bullpen. They don't view Washburn as a fifth starter the way some of you posting on this blog do. They figured he's better than some of that they already have in the rotation.

Apparently, the M's wanted a player off the Twins' 40-man roster. Not sure who, but I'm told it was one of their many starting pitchers. That's where the deal fell apart. This is interesting because it suggests there would be room for continued negotiation. I mean, there's nothing stopping the two sides from continuing their talks, agreeing on something and then the M's putting Washburn through waivers again, the Twins claiming him (since they could very well be the lowest ranked claimant again) and then sending Seattle the player agreed upon. Since this isn't a "block" but more of a need situation by Minnesota, I don't see their needs changing in the next few days. The only reason this had to end now was the 48-hour negotiation window.

And if someone else swoops in and claims Washburn ahead of the Twins, then the M's still save the salary. Anyhow, that scenario makes as much sense to me as any other we've discussed so far. What do you think?

To answer a question, if the M's put Washburn on waivers and nobody claims him in 48 hours, then he will have "cleared" and be eligible to be traded without the waiver process for the remainder of the season.

And no, I highly doubt Washburn would invoke his no-trade clause. Minneapolis is just a puddle-jumper flight from his home in Wisconsin. He'd go there in a heartbeat.

3:26 p.m.: I've been told that it was indeed the Twins putting in a waiver claim on Jarrod Washburn, as was reported a short while ago by Jon Heyman over at Sports Illustrated's online site. Raul Ibanez was claimed by a bunch of teams, the Tigers having first crack at him. Still no word on who the M's were looking for from the Twins.

As we discussed earlier, the likelihood of an Ibanez deal getting done was slim.

In Washburn's case, once again, if the goal is to unload some money, that can still be done this month. Both players have now been pulled off waivers by the Mariners. But they can be put back on them at any time.

That won't happen with Ibanez. He's staying here for the rest of the year.

When a player is put on waivers a second time, he is automatically lost if claimed. You can't pull him back again. So, the M's won't risk losing Ibanez that way. But they could just throw Washburn back out there and hope he gets claimed.

There is still a chance that could happen, depending on pitching needs. Carrying Washburn into the off-season is a risk. Sure, the market could open up. But there will also be more pitchers on that open market. And the middle-of-the-pack lefty making $10.3 million won't look like such a great deal. Doubtful the M's would get anything significant back that they haven't already been offered at this time of year.

Maybe they have some concerns about their ability to get through the rest of this season without Washburn and the quality innings he's tossed of late? If so, you could hold on to him a while longer, get another start or two out of him and then throw him out on waivers to see if anyone bites.

But we're also now getting into the final six weeks of the season. Not a whole lot of time left for him to make an impact. I know the Mariners want value for the pitcher, but I'm not sure what they're doing here. The market has spoken. They aren't going to get his salary plus a prospect.

Frankly, this team has to decide whether it's going to contend or rebuild next year. If you're rebuilding, Washburn makes little sense as part of that plan. This is where not having a full-time GM could potentially hurt the Mariners. The new GM has to make that call. Not Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln. The new GM will be the one to say if this is a rebuild or a "go for it" scenario. There's no one around now to do that.

If there was, they would very likely opt to rebuild. And Washburn would be out of here.

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Posted by Unk

3:41 PM, Aug 14, 2008

This is completely and utterly ridiculous. Would someone please explain to me why Jarrod Washburn is still in a Mariner uniform?

Posted by Alaskan

3:42 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I don't see why Washburn would be part of a contention plan, either. His 10 million could be better used on offensive talent, given the minuscule difference between his performance and one of the other cheap options (RRS, Feierabend, Dickey, Morrow).

Posted by Adam

3:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Let's see - do I think the Mariners will actually do the right thing and let Washburn go?

Uh, no.

Posted by The Ultimate Optimist

3:44 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I don't see Washburn going on waivers again. If the M's are going to do that, in essence losing him for nothing, then they may as well have stuck the Twins with him. That would have been great. Minnesota is stacked in their rotation and doesn't have much money. To force them to take his salary would ahve been sweet since them claiming him was oviously a block of the White Sox getting him. They screwed us, we should have screwed them. Oh well.

Posted by Peter80s

3:45 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The incompetence of this organization is staggering. I wish nothing but terrible things to befall each and everyone who assists in continuing the downward spiral of this absolute DEBACLE.

Posted by Cynical Optimist

3:47 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Exactly what Alaska said.

Posted by Miles

3:48 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Yeah, I don't see Washburn going anywhere now either, for the reasons Ultimate Optimist said. This tells me that in Mariner world they think Wash has value to them, even if they are stuck with his contract all of next year. I'm not necessarily going to blame Pelekoudas for this because we all know that GM's don't have the final say in this organization since Gillick, at least.

Stupid move for a whole lot of reasons. I defended the move to not trade Washburn in July and try and get something for him, but those days are long gone. I'm not going to defend this.

Posted by M's Fan in CO Exile

3:50 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Frankly, this team has to decide whether it's going to contend or rebuild next year. "

Washburn would be a poor piece to either plan. The Mariners just hamstrung the next GM with a very expensive #5 starter. We have one of those on the team for the next several years in Silva. Washburn's streaky contributions could be had at a fraction of the cost. The Minnesota Twins just walked up to the Mariners and offered to pay them to fix a very leaky roof. You don't get those kind of deals very often. It's the baseball equivalent of winning the state lottery (not powerball, mind you, but still pretty good). The Mariners decided to take the lottery ticket and burn it instead of redeeming it. Nice work.

Posted by matt

3:52 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I don't get the outrage over the M's tack thus far with Washburn. If we had three shots to unload him, with the final shot being the salary dump only option, why not try to get back some players on the first two tries? I think the only legitimate outrage people can have is if the third try does not result in someone claiming Washburn and his salary stays on the books.

Posted by Leroy Bean

3:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Cant we put Lincoln and Chuckles out on waiver and see if they get claimed? These clowns have been the reason this team has cratered.

Bedard....what the heck is going o nwith this?? Where is he? Is he well? What another crappy trade that one was. Hope we can ship him off during the offseason. Hate Hate his attitude.

Posted by Mr. Met

3:57 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I was unfortunate enough to attend the game when Burke was put in to pitch in the 15th inning. For the past 7 years this Met fan (but will go to any game) has attended Ms games each weekend they were in town. $35 - $55 tickets; $7 beer; $20 parking; $4 hot dogs; $3.50 peanuts. With 30K fans the Ms are making money yet providing an increasingly inferior product. Burke in the 15th and the Ms players sitting on the bench disinterested in the game on the field made that game the last game I will attend until the Ms front office overhauls the organization. Fans should boycott the team, the high prices, and the pathetic effort so the team loses enough money to take notice.

Posted by HarryPodelstein

4:03 PM, Aug 14, 2008

This is a pathetic attempt by Lincoln and his cronies to get people to keep attending ballgames the last 6 weeks... they realize that ridding themselves of Washburn, probably means starts for guys who may very well get battered around (Silva style).. thus accumulating numerous losses and driving attendence down the last 6 weeks..

This is why this regime must go.. they look to pinch every penny possible in regards to attendence.. and are willing to be on the hook for 10 million, for a below average starter next yr, cause they want to be competitive the final 6 weeks of this season..

What a disgrace... I wont follow this team closely again until Lincoln and his puppets are gone

Posted by Tim F

4:08 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I am pretty sure that the second time a player goes on waivers he's effectively being released and if someone doesn't claim him, you have to cut him a check.

I hope I'm wrong about that.

Posted by Really Irate

4:09 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Frankly, this team has to decide whether it's going to contend or rebuild next year. If you're rebuilding, Washburn makes little sense as part of that plan."

It makes little sense either way, Geoff.

Contrary to your most ardent claims, Washburn is not a good pitcher and never will be a good pitcher. Keeping him on this team in nothing more than another example of Mariner pigheadedness.

If pigheadedness determined success on the field, this organization would be in the midst of a dynasty the likes of which only the Yankees have seen.

Posted by ancient mariner

4:16 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Unfortunate. It would have been a nice start to the rebuilding process to get some prospects for Raul and to dump the bloated contract of Washburn. While they are at it, the Mariners can try to unload Silva, Batista, Bedard, Johjima, Beltre....all overpaid remnants from the Conehead Bavasi era.

Posted by The Ultimate Optimist

4:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

That's pretty much my understanding of it. If the M's put Wash on waivers a second time, a team claiming him could strike a deal with the M's and get him. Or, after the claiming period ends, they would release him and be on the hook for the remainder of his salary and he'd be a free agent and can sign with anyone (ala Sexson). This rule is in place more or less to help circumvent a team from blocking a player. Cleary the White Sox wanted Washburn and the Twins claimed him to block. If the Ms did it again, the White Sox could then sign him as a free agent, so the Twins probably wouldn't block a second time and then the White Sox probably wouldn't claim him again - just wait for the release.

With the back and forth in the standings in the AL Central, it's too bad the M's didn't see this coming and wait for a period when the Twins were ahead of the White Sox, therefore allowing the Sox to get a claim in. Just my thoughts anyhow All of this is assuming that the White Sox really wanted him.

Posted by john

4:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Well put. For some reason the Mariners value Washburn more highly than the other 29 teams in basball do.

Posted by mikey

4:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

WOW. lol

Posted by John

4:20 PM, Aug 14, 2008

No ... Seattle will not do the right thing and dump Washburn. At least not any time soon.

The Seattle FO is like the parent who simply cannot except that their child really is quite ugly, cannot sing or is the biggest bully on the block.

It's the one thing that has always separated this organization from ones like Oakland, where a GM like Bavasi takes a hard, realistic look at what he has, and trades in his stock when it has peaked and on the way down. Seattle, meanwhile, toils away for months and years with unbelievably bad talent - like Sexson and Vidro, just to name a couple of the most recent disasters, unwilling to part ways until what they have is so useless that they end up dumping them and paying for it - literally.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, this is an organization in complete chaos. Frankly, though, this season was the very best thing that could have happened.

As with life, sometimes the only way you can convince an addict they need help is for things to get so bad the person had nearly killed themselves or someone else.

That's what has happened in Seattle. No one, not even the dumbest donkey in that M's front office can possibly think what they've put together is even marginally acceptable as a major league franchise.

Then again, apparently there are some really dumb donkeys running around Edgar Martinez Blvd.

Posted by Nick

4:24 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Geoff, what is your view on adrian beltre? the consensus here with the exception of the Adam's and BrianL's of the world is that he is paid A-rod money for his A-rod-esque season he had in LA years back and is nothing more than a .230 hitter with above average D and horrid clutch numbers. Do you think he should be placed on waivers on the offchance a team bites on him? I really doubt any team does , but he is a far bigger cancer/sink hole on this team than Washburn or Raul.

Posted by Tacoma Rain

4:26 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I hope you are creating a long list of questions for Lee and other members of the M's FO.
They have a lot to answer for, as you mentioned in your last blog.
Some of the questions I would like answered are:
1. Have the M's added $10 Million to their 2009 budget, or is money going to be a limiting factor for next year???

Posted by Tacoma Rain

4:30 PM, Aug 14, 2008

More questions...
2. Do the M's have a plan on what they are going to do with all the lefty starters they have in the minor Feierabend, RRS, Rohrbough, Justin Thomas, C. Jimenez, and etc...
3. What is the purpose for auditioning Feierabend this weekend? Have the M's given up on him? Or would the M's actually have a rotation with 3 lefties in it?

Posted by chucko24

4:31 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Beltre is Ok but Washburn is crap. they are stooooopid if teh ydont dump him just for salary cap reasons and to open a spot for a kid next year. F. Hernandez, Bedard, Morrow, Silva, and rookie phenom Aumont???Pretty nice rotation, huh? Oh and no more dickey or batista PLEASE!!

Posted by Scanman

4:32 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Just remember my frustrated baseball cronies; this is all about the entertainment value, not the player’s skills. It’s a thriving business that won’t change until the turnstiles rust shut.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

4:33 PM, Aug 14, 2008

John: Well put! Things have pretty much hit rock bottom with this organization - I was driving by the M's ticket office yesterday on the way to the freeway and couldn't help but notice only one ticket window was open (at 11a) and no customers were buying tickets. Looked like the old Maytag repairman commercial. Other than the NYY series, attendance will be dismal in Sept. and maybe that will get Yamauchi to wake up and either decide to sell or clean house in the FO.

I still think the Bavasi canning was mandated by Mr Y. who was esp. unhappy that the multi-year radio contract rights bid by KIRO was only 1/2 of what KOMO bid 5 years ago. The firing came while the radio contract bids were being reviewed by the M's.

Posted by Tacoma Rain

4:34 PM, Aug 14, 2008

More questions....
4. Do the M's think Washburn will continue to pitch this well next year, or are the M's still planning on trying to trade Washburn in the off season?
5. Does Washburn feel trapped here in Seattle now? Is Washburn's motivation gone, and thus he will return to his old form??

Posted by Utis

4:35 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The M's have stated that money isn't the primary factor for them. If so, the M's may be able to get more value for Washburn over the winter by eating some of his salary. This will be particularly true if Washburn finishes strong.

Posted by M's Fan in CO Exile

4:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

". . .with the exception of the Adam's and BrianL's of the world is that he is paid A-rod money for his A-rod-esque season he had in LA years back and is nothing more than a .230 hitter with above average D and horrid clutch numbers. Do you think he should be placed on waivers on the offchance a team bites on him? I really doubt any team does , but he is a far bigger cancer/sink hole on this team than Washburn or Raul."

Uh, wow. A-Rod gets paid almost $28 mill, to hit big and play crappy defense at 3rd. Adrian Beltre gets paid less than 14 mill (13.4) to play outstanding defense and provide ok offense. You really have to be out of touch to think that Beltre is a "sink hole" for this team. It's not even close to the objective truth.

Posted by Bandit

4:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I can see holding on Ibanez if your not getting anything in return, but Wash?!


Posted by Gordie

4:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The complete failure (yes, that's the best word to describe it) to unload Washburn twice is more than enough evidence that Lee Pelekoudas is not meant to be a major league GM, especially not one in Seattle. If you heard Pelekoudas on KJR after the Washburn-to-New-York deal didn't happen, the sheer stupidity that came out of his mouth was mind-boggling. Of course, mind-boggling to the fans means par for the course to Lincoln and Armstrong, so I expect Pelekoudas to get an extension soon.

Posted by Walrus

4:40 PM, Aug 14, 2008

6. Since obviously some of the reasoning on keeping Washburn and Ibanez is so that the Mariners don't lose 100 games -
What happens if both players now slump, since they had hopes of being traded, and the Mariners do lose 100 games? What is the M's excuse then? Atleast if the Mariners got rid of one or both of the players, the FO had a reason why the Mariners lost 100 games with a $117 million payroll.

Posted by Batter Up!!!

4:40 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Geoff, Are we sure Washburn did not nix the deal with his limited trade clause?

This is just too BIZARRE!

Posted by Sounders

4:41 PM, Aug 14, 2008

beltre is an easy out. any pitcher worth a damn can get him out without breaking a sweat.

Posted by enough is enough

4:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I have been a fan of this team for 30+ years and never have I been so frustrated. That's saying something with some of the teams they put out their in the 80's. At least they were still a young team and we didn't expect much. We had everything going for us early in this decade, now it is just embarrasing. Why can this front office not make the move to get rid of Washburn? We should absolutely be thanking someone for claiming him and taking on his inflated salary. But why would they use common sense. They probably think that we're still only a piece or two away from contending. Man this sucks.

Posted by Merrill

4:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Hey, by the way, M's Fan in Exile: M's Fan in CO Exile has been posting here longer than you. In fact, when I first saw your handle, I thought he'd moved, or gotten lazy. Pretty funny, huh?

Posted by CaptainPoopy

4:46 PM, Aug 14, 2008


I'm glad you're carrying that badge well.

You know, that badge that says, "I'm not smarter than a 5th grader"?

Posted by Tacoma Rain

4:52 PM, Aug 14, 2008

More questions...
6. Was this decision made by Lee, or was it a group decision? If it was a group decision, will the new GM have to abide by the same rules of asking the committee if he can make a trade...or was the committee used becuase Howard & Chuck do not trust Lee?

Posted by Eat that Poop, Captain

4:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

How about eating a nice poop sandwich, Captain?

Posted by Pirata Morado

4:55 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I can't understand the love for Beltre. OK offense? My goodness, don't you actually watch the games? He's a sink hole!

Just look at the leaderboard in WPA:

Beltre ranks #153 out of a total of 158 qualified batters in WPA, fo course he is our worst hitter in terms of WPA with -2.44.

People, don't you watch the games? Yes, he's a solid defender, but so were David Bell, Jeff Cirillo, among others that we are happy to see gone. I'm gonna be happy the day I see this clown gone!

Posted by -j.

4:55 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Indefensible not letting Washburn go. Plain and simple.

In essence, the Mariners just raised a big sign over their head saying "we are incompetant and running a baseball team".

These idiots make it really hard to root for the Mariners.

Posted by doug

4:58 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Jeff Cirillo takes insult to you comparing adrian to him. Cirlillo out hit him and didnt get paid a-rod money

Posted by Pirata Morado

4:59 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Jeff Cirillo takes insult to you comparing adrian to him. Cirlillo out hit him and didnt get paid a-rod money"

That's a good one! You're absolutely right! Please Cirillo, accept my apologies!

Posted by doug

5:02 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Jeff was hated on for no good reason, adrian is widely considered the biggest FA bust around ask any gm or espn analyst. he is the problem with the team and his D isnt as hard to replace as u think.

Posted by hoke

5:03 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The Mariners front office has no idea what they are doing. They had the opportunity to dump salary, and rid themselves of an expensive medicore pitcher, and they passed on it?

I am sure they have some prospects they can dump for another gritty veteran with declining skills to provide clubhouse leadership.....but the M's have no chance to amount to anything with the crew in power.

Posted by Bums

5:16 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I applaud Pelekoudas for not getting fleeced like Bavasi did on a consistent basis, but this one should not matter. They have to get rid of Wash w/o paying his salary. There is no reason to be stuck with him, his contract, and his poor performance next year.

Posted by scottM

5:22 PM, Aug 14, 2008

from GEOFF: "And what will it matter in 2009? Does anyone truly think this team can contend next year?"

The "anyone" that counts here is the front office. The actions/inactions of our F.O. indicate that the M's haven't thrown in the towel on '09. They also seem to be consistent that they are not in a salary dump mode (or Washburn would already be gone).

So, GEOFF, the more significant question should be: What is the worst case scenario if Jarrod Washburn, Erik Bedard, Adrian Beltre are with the M's at the start of 2009? Simple. The M's will have until the July 31, 2009 trade deadline to determine if this team, with those core players, can be competitive. If not, trade these expensive chips then. No harm in trying next April with these guys, because none of the actual play of these specific players has hurt the team nearly as much as the play of Vidro and Sexson in 2008.

[As for Ibanez, if he is with the M's in '09, he will have a multiyear deal to play DH. If not, he's gone.]

Obviously, when projecting success, we can go down the list of current players––closer and bullpen, starting rotation, our fairly slow and powerlite offense, or often porous defense––to figure out the specifics of what needs to improve in 2009 to be competitive. Clearly, if as many things fall into place for the Mariners in 2009 to the extent that they fell apart in 2008, we should win the World Series.

Posted by The Observer

5:32 PM, Aug 14, 2008

No matter how this is explained, if Washburn is still a Mariner then the front office has once again SCREWED UP!

Posted by Adam

5:38 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Geoff - I don't buy your explanation of the Twins' motives for one second. There simply is no way that a well-run organization like the Twins would take any one of their five starters (each of whom is at least an equal to Washburn), move one of them to the bullpen, AND take on Washburn's 2008 salary.

No way. The Twins are just too smart to do something stupid like that.

The Mariners, on the other hand, have now blown TWO chances to get rid of Washburn. I'm guessing Minnesota took one look at Seattle's asking price, laughed, and walked away.

And I'm guessing that if Seattle puts Washburn back on waivers, no team will even bother taking him.

Get ready for Jarrod Washburn in 2009.

Go Knicks.

Posted by shortbus

5:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Thanks for the update, Geoff. I may not always agree with your opinions, but your committment to providing the fans with up-to-the-minute info on the team is unimpeachable.

My guess is the M's once again decided to play hardball figuring they have a second chance to dump Washburn's salary. They can now put him on irrevocable waivers...with or without a prior arrangement with Minnesota...and still dump him. Clearly Minnesota is prepared to take on his salary so this should be a successful gambit.

I'd just as soon take the money and run on this one, though.

Posted by notscottM

5:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Jarrod Washburn, Erik Bedard, Adrian Beltre ... these guys, because none of the actual play of these specific players has hurt the team nearly as much as the play of Vidro and Sexson in 2008." scottM

Nonsense, each one of them is virtually in the same class as Vidro and Sexson. Washburn was an automatic loss throughout much of the season, Bedard is damaged goods who will never be the ace he was in Baltimore, and Beltre is worst of all with no ability to hit with runners in scoring position and nothing to show for his batting cleanup. These three are a big part of the reason as to why the M's are a last place team and the second worst squad in baseball.

LeeP has today passed up the last chance to unload Washburn as no team will now claim him off the waiver wire since they can simply wait until he clears and the sign him. While folks seem blind to his failings, Bedard will never recover from his hip injury, so he will never be the pitcher he was for the O's - thanks for doing your homework Bonehead. Worst still Beltre cannot even be counted as a mediocre despite all this bull about line drive percentage, luck and injury. He continues to fall off the mark down and falling down. Of course he is hitting out of position when batting fourth, particularly given his total inability to hit with risp, he is at best a six or seventh hole hitter.

It is simply to put stock in these three underacheivers have brought us to the loser ball and promise more next year. They are simple bloated contracts that should be moved and they offer no core of quality for the future. Probably they will have little on no trade value in the off season or at next year's trade deadline. Thanks LP for saddling the next GM with an unnecessary $10 million contract. Face it these losers are the reason why this team is costing $117 million and on track to lose 120 games.

Lets hope that Washburn continues his starts and Riggle sticks with him beyond his usefulness, that Bedard comes back to show he is no ace but an aloof past his prime project, and especially that Beltre continues to hit cleanup and swing at anything breaking away or above his eye level. With these guys, we might have a chance to win that draft lottery which is now at only 21/2 games behind Washington.

Posted by scottM

6:07 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Hey notScottM:

Aren't you the wimpy slimebucket who can't think of his own handle when so "bravely" going on the attack.

Beltre routinely makes excellent plays at the hot corner. Of course he could hit better, but we have him for 2009, irrespective of your brilliant wish lists that are devoid of contractual realities.

Washburn demonstrated that he pitches quite well when showcasing his talents. Would he bring that in '09. Who knows?

And, I guess you're Dr. NotScottM the way you speak with such authority that Bedard––a very good pitcher––has a career ending injury.

Where do you douchebags come from, The Massengill Society?

Posted by Beam me up Scotty

6:15 PM, Aug 14, 2008

scottM -

Resort to your ad hominen attacks filled with crass and vulgar references, show everyone how rational you are. ScottM - a paradigm of reason - has hope for any and all losers. Thw M's will contend next year and the studs - Washburn, Bedard, Beltre - will take them to the ball. The same old losers will bring you home in '09.

Good luck, chief engineer, your fantasy is just around the next galaxy.

Posted by Faceplant

6:36 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Jeff Cirillo takes insult to you comparing adrian to him. Cirlillo out hit him and didnt get paid a-rod money"

Jeff Cirillo's best year with Seattle? .629 OPS

Adrian Beltre's worst year with Seattle? .716 OPS

Alex Rodriguez salary this year? 28 million dollars

Adrian Beltre's salary this year? 13.4 million dollars

Google searches are easy. Use them or go post on a blog that is closer to your intelligence level.

Posted by doug

6:39 PM, Aug 14, 2008

OPS? why combine two fictiticious stats into one inane one? us ba or rbi


Posted by Uncle Buc

6:40 PM, Aug 14, 2008

RotoWire has a pretty good theory on this deal:

The only way this makes sense is if the Twins refused to take all of Washburn's salary. So the Mariners pull Washburn back, and when they re-waive him the claiming team will be forced to take his total salary. The Mariners won't get any players in return, only a $50,000 claiming fee, but that doesn't matter because this is merely a salary dump anyway. And if no team claims him, then the Mariners can negotiate a trade with any team. Other than that, we're hard pressed to understand why Seattle wouldn't rid itself of Washburn when it had the chance.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:42 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Can anyone tell me if Strasburg fits the Mariners “Physical Mode” of height and weight or will they ignore him like they did Lincecum?

With Bob Fontaine at the helm it wouldn't surprise me at all if Strasburg will be viewed exactly as Lincecum was. Afterall, Fontaine has historically bombed drafting in the first round. Clement over Tulowitski, Morrow over Lincecum, Aumont over Matt Dominguez who scouts compared to Mike Lowell..

Posted by scottM

6:46 PM, Aug 14, 2008


The ad hominem attack began when you hid behind a negating and derivative blog name, the practice of which is chickensh*t. Ad hominem is when you call people "bonehead" for trying to assess what the F.O. might be doing relative to its key players. But, gosh, it's not bonehead on your part to suggest dumping everyone of your team's key players with no rational plan for moving forward.

But then, I'm fairly certain who is speaking. Mr. BiPolar has reared his head again. Are you planning on a barrage of posts in Russian/Spanish/French/German and Chinese now to show everyone how obnoxious you can be with your Babel translation cut-and-pastes? Or are you going to revert to your mimicking BS from a couple months ago by assuming other blogger's identities? You intentionally insult people, then act insulted. Calling you on your repeated crap in here is not ad hominem. As a poster you are in fact a chickens**t. You have no respect for this blog or its bloggers.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

6:50 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Resin Isn't Cheating -

Fontaine is actually a really good scout. A catcher with Clement's bat potential is really hard to find. Morrow actually has a great shot at turning out to be a number 2 pitcher one day.

Lincecum has a weird delivery and that might have shied the M's away, or he might have wanted money that was greater than his slot (something Selig asks teams not to do) and the M's wont sign out of their slot.

Posted by Beam me up Scotty

6:55 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Bonehead was a reference to Bill Bavasi who created this mess including acquiring the players you so passionately defend. And you hide behind an unknown moniker because no one really knows who scottM is, still there are so many like you here that one can only avoid the endless attacks from you stat heads and otherwise foolish dreamers referring to the stupid Jose Guillen business.

Your problem is you cannot face reality, you are in space dreaming of an instant fix with the same bunch of losers who earned this one hundred loss season. Get a grip or the UFOs will haul you off.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:56 PM, Aug 14, 2008

No way. The Twins are just too smart to do something stupid like that.

I've always stated the Twins are a well oiled machine using the farm system. However, they have made mistakes in free agency and trades in the past. No one is perfect. The Twins when they do make a mistake keep on winning since they majority of their daily operations are performed above average.

Here are a few rare mistakes by the Twins in just the past few years:

1. Bret Boone
2. Jeff Cirillo
3. Tony Batista
4. Ruben Sierra
5.Jose Offerman

So yes, Lord Adam, the Twins could be serious about Washburn.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

6:57 PM, Aug 14, 2008

In fact, I truly feel that with some of his picks, Fontaine, was overruled by Bavasi and other FO personnel. I think Fontaine wanted Timmy... but the over slot price made the M's FO say, "no".

Posted by no poop

6:58 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Captain Poopy - back spreading your stink are you? Poopy with a hat made of diapers.

What a stupid call name.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

6:59 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Resin -

It's not like those were big FA pick ups either. As I recall, Boone was a waiver wire deal. Money wasn't huge and neither were the years.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

7:00 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Fontaine is actually a really good scout.

He's average in my book. Fontaine has weaknesses. He is old school to a fault. I don't believe he's a tools guy because he never would have drafted Clement. History backs me up Captain, I never stated Fontaine sucks as a scout. I believe he has weaknesses, and is average at his job.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

7:00 PM, Aug 14, 2008

You were all disgusted with my post saying that one fellow wasn't a smart man... I agree, I took it too far.

Yet, you can still make fun of my name? Get over yourself and grow up.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

7:02 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Resin, you may be right in your assessment... I'm just saying, I'm not displeased with anything he's done so far. I do think that Lincoln and Armstrong and Bavasi also swayed his picks. I can't help but think that... especially with how this team is ran.

Posted by no poop here

7:04 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Go clean the poop deck, captain.

Posted by Eddie V

7:07 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Ibanez is at an all time high value yet these tools running the show can't manage to swing jack. All I can say is that this team is run by a bunch of stupid cunts

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

7:16 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I can see your point Captain as far as salary goes. The Twins are a small market team with limited revenue from ownership. They paid good money for salaries on Corey Koskie and Doug Meintkeiwicz (sp) players that did not pan out. These are considered huge mistakes where their budget is concerned. Yet they still kept on winning. A model franchise.

Posted by RagArm

7:16 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Wouldn't it be great to have a journalist fly to Japan and interview Hiroshi Yamauchi, who is represented by John Ellis, and ask some questions we all have been asking about the mangement of this team?

It is obvious the CEO and his subordinates are totally inept and it would be interesting to hear Mr. Yamauchi's assessment and rational for keeping the management team intact.

Can't one of our major news organizations tackle this for the fans? We need to know the truth on why the disfunctional team is allowed to flounder. Also why non-moves like Washburn's sit on your hands approach by Lee and others continues.

Please, somebody. This, as Unk said in the first entry to this thread, is completely and utterly ridiculous!

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

7:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I don't have a big problem with Fontaine's talent scouting as for the most part, his draft picks in recent years have been doing okay. I just wonder sometimes about whether the M's even have an advance scout - I assume this area falls under Fontaine also. Who is their advance scout and why do our hitters esp. go up to the plate against journeyman pitchers without having a clue? Look at the Angels last night against JJ - they knew he has no control of the splitter now so they just look strictly fastball and whacked away at that very hittable pitch. If we have an advance scout, he must be spending his time constantly in some bar on the road.

Posted by doug

7:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

no team on earth wants beltre infecting him with his awfulness. he would make any team in baseball even the tacoma raineers worse just by setting foot and infecting them with his loser ways. he is god awful and represents all that is wrong in the world today.

Posted by Davis

7:19 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Aumont was a pretty bad pick in retrospect, he is always injured his upside is kevin "i punch dugout walls" brown. blech

Posted by doug

7:20 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Some one jsut suggested we get adam dunn. Umm bb tonight just said he is awful, stikes out so much it hurts the team, cant handle pressure and has never won in his life. WHY DO WE WANT HIM???

Posted by RagArm

7:22 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Also, I listened to a 60 minutes report many years back that compared Japanese baseball to baseball in America. The report's thrust was that in Japan it is never really necessary to win, that the national culture doesn't honor winning for winning's sake.

It showed teams that were ahead in score who purposely allowed the other team to come back in score, and even win on may occasions.

This cultural/attitudinal difference may be a factor in our ownership not really caring about being a contender.

Does anyone else have knowledge on this subject? I'm not making this up.

Posted by The Ancient Mariner

7:24 PM, Aug 14, 2008

doug you've have again got it right despite your spelling of Rainers. Beltre is a Jonah; Jonah is someone who brings back luck to a ship and according to the stat heads that is exactly what Beltre has when making so many outs despite hitting so line drives as they say. Jonah I tell you - send him out on waivers and see what you can get in return.

Posted by Faceplant

7:24 PM, Aug 14, 2008

That might explain why ichiro has never tried hard his entire career. Japan as a nation has a defeatist and loser-ish mentality that is compounded by their nations lack of a work ethic, their work force is lazy and doesnt work many hours leading to poor products and weak minded people.

Posted by RagArm

7:26 PM, Aug 14, 2008


I was not even hinting at that, so don't back up my post with such a racist comment.

Posted by Elkboy

7:30 PM, Aug 14, 2008


Here are some more Twins mistakes just for fun...they are a team that frequently overestimates the value of "veteran leadership" and so forth and undervalues young power hitters.

6. Livan Hernandez
7. Craig Monroe
8. Rondell White
9. Ramon Ortiz
10. Juan Castro
11. Phil Nevin

12. David Ortiz.... : (

As a Mariner fan living in Minnesota, I was very conflicted by the potentiality of this move.

Posted by RagArm

7:32 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Faceplant, don't know if you were being sarcastic or not, but I did listen to that newscast.

Also: Japan is a work-oriented society. The 9-5 work shift is more like 6-9. Work seems to be the answer to everything. As one American reporter living in Japan pointed out, "even if I am not busy at work, I will always appear concerned, frustrated, and totally focused on something. If I appear frazzled after a long day at work, my co-workers will think 'wow, he must have gotten a lot done, look how freaked out he is'. Work is the one thing really worth doing and if you're not working, you're a parasite."

Posted by AKMarinersFan

7:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Can we give Silva back to the Twins as well. That would take care of both of our starting pitching problems.

Geoff - "some" of us don't think as Washburn as a 5th starter. Some of think of him as a guy who should be out of baseball...

Posted by dblog

7:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Once again the three Stooges strike, but this ain't funny. Unless they asked for Santana :-)

Posted by doug

7:43 PM, Aug 14, 2008

mike lowell ? :-/

Posted by scottM

7:50 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"Get a grip or the UFOs will haul you off."

Ahh, so you are the same obnoxious fellow who claimed to be with the Washington State Patrol. You are certainly the one who wanted everyone to think he was multi-lingual for his use of the Babel translator.

Are you also No Poop, and No Poop Here, and the one that is making Faceplant sound racist toward the Japanese by impersonating him, (if so, that's really over the line)?

You're oh so "clever", but too scared to establish a blog identity of your own. You are a real chickens**t.

Posted by Beam me up Scotty

7:55 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Your omission of letters "it" does not make your post any less vulgar Mr. Spaceman, dream on fantasy master.

Posted by scottM

8:11 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Just as I thought, you're the troll who mocks other bloggers by goofing on their names, and who can get quite manic in how he appropriates this blog with repeat obnoxious posts.

What would you call your blog presence here, if not chickens**t? Do you have a regular blog name? Can you logically stand by your opinions and positions? Do you have a clue about how to respect other bloggers here?

Posted by Thoan

8:15 PM, Aug 14, 2008

My understanding of the non-public MLB rules is that if you put a player on waivers a second time, they are irrevocable. In other words, the waiver cannot be withdrawn if claimed.

Thus, I don't see how Geoff's suggestion could work. It was: "I mean, there's nothing stopping the two sides from continuing their talks, agreeing on something and then the M's putting Washburn through waivers again, the Twins claiming him (since they could very well be the lowest ranked claimant again) and then sending Seattle the player agreed upon." After the second waiver, there's no reason for the Twinkies to send us a player, because they can claim Washburn without doing so, and we can't stop them. Still works for a salary dump, but not for picking up a prospect.

A pet peeve is that these rules aren't published. Teams have them, agents have them, players might have them, but we don't. Why MLB (or someone who wants to annoy them) doesn't simply post the rules at a web site is one of life's little mysteries.

Posted by Chip1010

8:16 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Thanks for all the reporting today, Geoff. Good work.

And Faceplant, that was hilarious. There's nothing quite as fun as making fun of racism and then being called a racist.

Posted by Batter Up!!!

8:21 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Watched Straburg pitch in the Olympics last night. What a treat.

Let's not forget what we are really playing for now!

Posted by Batter Up!!!

8:23 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Strasburg, sorry.

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

8:24 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Say what you may but you are the one who has resorted to vulgar and profane insults, no matter how you disguise it, you make yourself appear to be a lowlife. The galaxy holds the answers to your riddles Mr. Spaceman, but the likes of Beltre, Bedard and Washburn will not give you a contender, they are deep in the refuse of this one hundred lost season. Your boys are prime contenders for losing, and it is about time you woke up from your fantasy notion that the M's can contend with these same defective pieces that you so blindly champion. Live it large Mr. Spaceman, they have a place - padded cells and all - for you at the Lakewood Center.

Posted by ML

8:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Geoff, I will correct you. If you are going to contend OR rebuild, Washburn makes little sense as part of the plan :)

Posted by scottM

8:38 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The galaxy holds the answers

The Seattle Times knows who you are and the multitude of blog crimes you have committed here, CS. (Short for your favorite word that starts with chicken.)

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

8:45 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"CS" - You are the one who uses the vulgar words, Scotty, it would appear that it is your favorite word. My so called "crimes" include no profanity or vulgar references. In reality, all I have done is disagree with you regarding the worth of Washburn, Bedard and Beltre, you are the one who stooped so low as to create vulgar insults. So who in this case is the cyber criminal? You can't hold back your profane and vulgar tendencies that make you the "criminal" in this case. Call the kettle black will you, there is a special cell awaiting you in Lakewood Center. There you can indulge your fantasies all day and night long.

Posted by jiggs

8:52 PM, Aug 14, 2008


I was curious about that too. I think Geoff was saying the M's would use the next couple of days to see if some kind of trade could be arranged with the Twins, and then place him on waivers again ONLY if the Twins agreed to offer something acceptable in return for him. And if some team with a worse record than the Twins and money to burn claims him, so be it.

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

9:02 PM, Aug 14, 2008

You can't really believe that the Twins wanted Washburn, they were merely blocking the White Sox from getting him. If he goes on the wire again, no one will claim him because he is not that valuable in the first place. He will go unclaimed and the M's will have to pick up the check for his $10 million. When he then clears waivers any team will be free to sign him. The second waiver is absolute and he is gone so the M's have no more leverage with moving Washburn. It is for this reason that everyone here with the exception of some few are so disappointed in today's failure to simply dump him on the Twins, thereby calling their bluff. It was a great chance to clear some salary space and make room for younger, more effective arms.

Posted by fire_chuck_howie

9:05 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Still waiting for one person to mention who will be playing 3rd when they get their wish and Beltre is gone.

Also you think Yuni and Imobilanez's defense is bad now...wait until they have to cover the rest of their position.

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

9:11 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Is that you scottM hiding behind that "fire_chuck_howie" handle? Shame on you.

When Beltre moves on the M's will handle it - there is Morse in the wings of recovery - Lopez, a former shortstop - might shift there with Hulett at second. Beltre is no panecea and he is not irreplaceable, his time to move on is growing ever nearer so he has no future with the M's. And I say good riddance to him.

Posted by jiggs

9:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Yeah, actually I do think the Twins' claim on Wash could have been more than a blocking maneuver (though that's entirely debatable). If the M's really asked for a member of the Twins' starting 5 in return then it makes sense that the deal would fall through. Giving up a starter for Wash means the Twins have no 6th starter to nudge into the bullpen to take on 8th inning relief duties. It would've defeated the purpose of the trade.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

9:47 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Still waiting for one person to mention who will be playing 3rd when they get their wish and Beltre is gone.

Also you think Yuni and Imobilanez's defense is bad now...wait until they have to cover the rest of their position.

Your answer is Jose Lopez.

Yuni plays second base his natural position. You can sign Orlando Cabrera for $9+mil. a year if the Sox don't re-sign him.

Posted by Kelly

9:49 PM, Aug 14, 2008

There is no doubt about it. We are the worst run organization in baseball, and in a world that includes the Washington Nationals that is saying something.

The depths of how deeply we suck are just way to vast to imagine. There is simply no intellectually defensible excuse for not dumping Washburn on the first sucker you can find.

What this decision confirms is that the dynamic duo of Lincoln and Armstrong will make a GM choice as uninspired as when they selected Bavasi.

Frankly, why would any GM of any talent want to come here if they have to report to those two morons.

We are right and royally screwed until those two guys shuffle off this mortal coil. Maybe then we'll get lucky and someone with some baseball intelligence will take over. But it is awfully sad to think that the two guys running this team are so incapable of learning from their mistakes that we are utterly doomed to failure.

I wonder if Armstrong and Lincoln would literally vote for Bush and Cheney for a 3rd term. I'm not talking about voting for McCain. I mean that, if given the choice, they would vote for Bush and Cheney over McCain.

They are fools. But as Yoda said, who is more foolish. The fool or the man who follows him. Felix is no fool, which is why I'm sure he is counting the days until he can take his leave from the worst run team in baseball.

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

9:51 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Why in the world would the Twins give up one of their quality starters for Washburn? Surely this could not have been a reasonable scenario, perhaps they set out to block the Chi Sox and then the M.s demanded a prospect alla the earlier Yankee negotiations. In reality, the M's should have played their hand giving Washburn up to the Twins who surely had no need for him. The Twins claimed him and as such they were committed to taking his $10 million salary, which in itself could have busted a rival budget. It was surely a bluff and the M's failed to call them on it. Now they are stuck with him for his full contract. Major blunder.

Posted by Cynical Optimist

10:11 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Why does everybody think once Washburn clears waivers, the M's have to pay his salary? He's not being dfa'd he's just on waivers. Once he clears, they can make a deal and if noone wants him, he's back next year, simple as that.

And I'm calling it right now, Beltre gets surgery in the offseason and next year he's back to 07 style. Going out on a bigger limb, Yuni will turn it around. Yeah that's right I said it.

Posted by scottM

10:11 PM, Aug 14, 2008

from BeamMeUpScottyM: "Is that you scottM hiding behind...?"

No, I'm not a CS hiding behind a juvenile mockery of other people's blog names.

And maybe I'm in the minority here thinking that the M's F.O. is prudent not to simply get rid of viable players for salary dumping purposes only. Even GEOFF has been vacillating on the question of whether the M's should blow it all up or make a game attempt to field a competitive team in '09 (even if he seems doubtful that will happen). Salary obligations, like it or not, are a complicating factor for guys like Washburn, Beltre, Silva, Batista, and Johjima.

Ironically, when I read ADAM and others being so vehement about freeing up Washburn's salary, it reminds me of Bavasi's approach to sell low and buy high.

I still don't get why there is this widespread assumption that the M's will again spend over $100 million next year in salaries. If getting rid of Washburn simply allows the M's to spend less, how will that improve this ballclub?

Sexson and Vidro were MUCH greater problems than Washburn, Beltre and Bedard because they grossly underperformed at key power positions. Bedard's injuries have been a big disappointment, not his actual pitching; Washburn looked great showcasing himself in June and July and has been our second best pitcher considering Bedard's injuries. Beltre is an excellent defender with a down year at the plate, but not nearly as down as Johjima, Yuni, the two replacements for Guillen, or Vidro. And, yes, if we dump Beltre in 2009, who will come close to replacing his gold glove at third? [No, NOT Jose Lopez or Yuni Betancourt].

Bottom line, if the M's can't get viable prospects for Washburn, Ibanez, Beltre, or Bedard, then keep them for at least the first half of 2009. It's definitely a long shot, but maybe, just maybe this team will surprise us.

Posted by Adam

10:13 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Here are a few rare mistakes by the Twins in just the past few years:

1. Bret Boone
2. Jeff Cirillo
3. Tony Batista
4. Ruben Sierra
5.Jose Offerman

So yes, Lord Adam, the Twins could be serious about Washburn.

Boone - picked up by Boone in the final year of his K after he was released by the Mariners - had to pay very little
Cirillo - signed a 1 year, 1.5 million dollar deal
Batistia - signed a 1 year, 1.25 million dollar deal
Sierra - signed a minor-league contract
offerman - signed a minor-league contract

Yeah, the Twins really didn't make any mistakes like getting Washburn would be. Those were low-cost deals. Getting Washburn would be just the opposite of those deals.

Nice try, though...

Posted by scottM

10:18 PM, Aug 14, 2008

To clarify, the only way Ibanez is with the M's next season is if he signs an extension to be our DH for the duration of his career. He has said publicly that he has conditioned his body to play until he is 40 years old. He's now 36. One would suspect that he will leave the M's unless they pony up a three or four year deal.

I can actually see Raul being a solid DH until he's 40, and an adequate fourth left fielder for a couple more years.

Posted by Sounders

10:24 PM, Aug 14, 2008

News Flash

Dateline Vladivostok:

Seattle Mariners President Chuck Armstrong has been arrested in Vladivostok Russia. Armstrong was apprehended sneaking out the back door of a roadside cafe carrying a cauldron of Borscht. He had attempted to conceal the cauldron with an Armani sports jacket. When apprehended Mr. Armstrong was quoted as saying "Eat Dirt! It's good for you!"

Posted by Kelly

10:25 PM, Aug 14, 2008

The reason some of us are so intent on dumping Washburn is that he isn't close to being worth $10 million a year. Guys like him are a dime a dozen. We could keep RA Dickey and get the same level of performance.

The point isn't to cut salary simply to cut salary. The point is to get rid of guys who aren't worth what we are paying them. We'd be WAY better of spending Washburn's salary on hiring more international scouts, signing free agents in Latin America, hoarding cash to pay signing bonuses for next year's draftees, or simply returning some cash to the owners.

Also, hanging on to Washburn and Ibanez through the first half of 2009 makes NO sense. All we would be doing is delaying - again - the start of a serious rebuilding effort. With Ibanez we need to offer arbitration, he'll refuse, and we'll take our draft picks. Washburn is a waste of a roster spot.

PS: If I were an owner of the Ms I would be outraged that management is wasting money on a guy who could be replaced by at least 24 other guys currently pitching in the minors.

Bottom line: we AREN'T getting viable prospects for Washburn. No one else as an FO as dumb as ours. L

Posted by Adam

10:25 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Since 2006, two regular AL 3B have a higher OPS than Beltre - Mike Lowell and A-Rod.

Neither hit in Safeco.

Neither can defend as well as Beltre (although Lowell is close).

Can we please stop with the misconceptions about Beltre?

Posted by CaptainPoopy

10:28 PM, Aug 14, 2008

ScottM -

There's nothing "adequate" about his LF defense now, how in the world would he be an "adequate" 4th OFer? A DH, sure... my hope is that we offer him arbitration and say, "all you'll be is a DH for us." He'll turn it down thinking he can still play the field and we net two high draft picks from it.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

10:33 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Honestly, this organization can afford to pay Washburn's salary and contract. That is why they are trying to get value for him. The same organization that paid $48 million for Carlos Sucks Silva. $25 mil. for Miguel Batista at 36 years old, $10 million on a wasted year for Jeff Weaver in the past.

Surely the M's could risk paying $10 million for 1 year on a #4 starter in order to fleece a team for a mid-level prospect. Do I have confidence Pelekoudas can do it? Nope. He failed miserably in the past winter free agencies trying to sign players that we luckily didn't.

I guess I am in the minority thinking not making a salary dump on Washburn is imperative to a rebuilding club or a difference maker in the future of the franchise. It really isn't. I think Washburn is just a warm body that takes up a spot in the rotation.

If the M's start opening day with Balentien, LaHair, Reed, Clement, the payroll is going to be quite low and we won't be scraping cash at the bottom of the barrel and install energy saver lights at Safeco Field next year.

Posted by scottM

10:44 PM, Aug 14, 2008

from Kelly: "We'd be WAY better of spending Washburn's salary on hiring more international scouts, signing free agents in Latin America, hoarding cash to pay signing bonuses for next year's draftees, or simply returning some cash to the owners."

Thanks for the thoughtful response. If I were confident that the M's would commit Washburn's $9million in '09 on a FA acquisition at DH, 1B, or LF, I would not have a problem with unloading him. Returning cash to the owners is not my concern. I want a competitive Mariner franchise. Period.

"Also, hanging on to Washburn and Ibanez through the first half of 2009 makes NO sense. All we would be doing is delaying - again - the start of a serious rebuilding effort."

Again, Ibanez will not be with the M's unless it's a multiyear contract AND Raul is willing to segue into the DH role.

"Washburn is a waste of a roster spot."

If Washburn pitches the way he did when he was showcasing himself, then he is by no means a wasted roster spot. Even if you believe that blowing this team up completely is the answer, then dumping Washburn for no prospects or with no assurance that his salary will be shifted to viable new prospects makes no sense either.

Bottom line, if we knew what the M's intend to do strategically for the 2009 season, especially what their spending budget will be, then the answer to the Washburn question would follow.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

10:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Yeah, the Twins really didn't make any mistakes like getting Washburn would be. Those were low-cost deals. Getting Washburn would be just the opposite of those deals.

Nice try, though...

Oh I finally read your response King Adam. If you read the dialogue I had conceded the financial part of the argument with Captain P. Again, you like to argue for argument sake.

My point was that signing those players were mistakes and did impact the team's offense during contention years. I realize my writing isn't up to your high standards.

Re: Beltre

There's no misconception being spread, it's just in your mind.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

10:54 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Resin -

We can afford it, you are correct.

My only issue is that our FO that ridiculously stupid that they think a man that's making 10M per year is worth more to this team than that of his filler that would make 500K and have (almost) identical stats.

They think Washburn is really worth the 10M and that they didn't overpay for his services. Fact is that they severely overpaid for him and they don't know it. And that's what troubles me.

I hate, so much, that I grew up a fan of the M's. It hurts me to root for a team that I despise so much. I so wish that I could cheer for the Rays or A's. I really do. I hate that I'm so loyal to my hometown team. I hate that Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong have a hold of this team. They may be smart men, but they have no baseball IQ what so ever. We have the worst front office in all of baseball and maybe in professional sports.

Posted by scottM

10:56 PM, Aug 14, 2008

"There's nothing "adequate" about his LF defense now, how in the world would he be an "adequate" 4th OFer? A DH, sure... "

The Raul in LF discussion has been beat to a pulp here. Yes, Raul has poor to average range. For his speed, he does get a good jump on the ball, makes the catches on the balls he gets to, and has a decent enough arm. The erratic defense of Yuni and Lopez at the more critical SS and 2B positions has been FAR, FAR, FAR more troublesome for the M's in 2008, than the defense of Raul Ibanez in LF. Yes, he would be an adequate backup left fielder.

The bigger question is whether Raul wants to play DH and give up on being a fielder. I would be surprised if Ibanez doesn't want to parlay his last big payday into a multi-year deal. Will any team take him as their left fielder?

Finally, much too much has been made of those two draft picks the M's would receive for Ibanez. Personally, like you intimate, Raul as our DH for the next three years is attractive.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

11:03 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Scott -

The high picks you'd receive from him leaving would help restock our farm club quite a bit. In essence, we'd be receiving another first rounder and a sandwich pick in the spot between first and second round. That's four picks in the first two rounds. That's a huge step towards rebuilding what we lost in the Bedard deal.

About Raul's defense. He does catch almost everything he gets to. He has a good glove, but he makes routine look awesome because he's such a minus fielder. Granted, I do believe he'd be better in RF because of the fact that RF in Safeco is smaller than LF and arm-strength is overrated. How many times during the year do you actually need your arm in the OF, not much.

We do agree though that Lopez and Yuni are horrendous fielders and I'd like them both to traded ASAP. If you keep one of them, it's Lopez. He's a much better hitter. Stick him at third if you trade Beltre. Get a cheap, defensive SS and we'd have a good infield D again.

Posted by Beam me up ScottyM

11:08 PM, Aug 14, 2008

scottM - hiding behind juvenile vulgarity in name calling - "CS" - he says but is this behavior really necessary. He likes to tout himself as high and mighty, although only Lord Adam exceeds his sense of superiority.

Does he really have a point concerning the likes of Washburn, Bedard and Beltre? Or is it just wishful thinking, fantasy illusion in his notion that the M's are only one player - Jose Guillen - away from competing in '09 with the likes of the above players. Total fantasy.

Washburn was terrible in April, May and much of June, he was an automatic loss during this period. Might one really believe that he will continue his recent competitive level of mediocre pitching?

Bedard began the season with a hip problem, it was erroneously reported that Jones had a hip problem that was holding up the trade, but clearly this is an example of how communications are often garbled. In fact, it was Bedard with the hip problem that was revealed on video showing the tremendous torque that he puts on the left hip in order to get his velocity. Bedard's is an unorthodox delivery with this hip torque motion that cannot be expected to continue without serious damage. It caught up to him last year in Baltimore when he first went on the DL, but Bonehead Bill - that Bavasi scottM - did not bother to examine Bedard's physical condition beyond the cursory glance. Clearly this season, he started with a hip problem, followed by a shoulder problem likely caused from overcompensation due to the inability of his hip to take the torque. Result he did not have the momentum on his fast ball as before and he proved not to be the ace Bavasi thought he was getting. As a result, Bedard is never likely to be the pitcher he was in Baltimore. Don't expect much from him period.

It has been well shown on this blog by Geof that Beltre does not hit with risp, in fact he is terrible when the pressure is on. So why not bat him fourth in the line up when you might have more rbi opportunities than any other hitter? M's managers seem to be fooled by his team leading home run statistic. Does he really hit so many line drives? Or is he just unlucky hitting them at the defense? Perhaps as some have suggested the defenses are playing him perfectly. Such utter nonsense, Beltre hits .250 which is not even a mediocre batting average. Is this really excellence that the M's cannot do without? Beltre has never lived up to the hype and he is not likely to do so anytime soon. With his contract year on the horizon, he may try and get it going a bit next year, but don't count on it. He still flails at outside breaking balls and eyeball high fastballs. Albeit Beltre has a bit more plate discipline than Betancourt, but the result is now much more effective. Maybe his numbers are improving but it is too late to matter for the M's, given his dismal start and utter failure to drive in runs, Beltre has not done very much to help this team win. If his statistics come up a bit with August and September, it is just padding because he was not there when the team needed him - April, May, June. Even now, he does very little to deserve so much adulation from M's fans. Beltre has never shown much as an M, he is not really contributing to winning games, he is simply adequate but the M's need more from his position, as you have very little from the other power corners, except for Ibanez. Beltre is no chip to build around for next year, best try and move him to someone like Boston who has need now that Lowell has gone down.

We have seen that the rest of the league does not have the same notions of value associated with M's players as that of the M's FO and Bench. No one was beating down the door for this overpaid gold glover. He will never be much more that a seven or eight hole hitter. With him batting fourth through much of the season, it is no wonder that the M's left record numbers of runners on base.

It is nonsense to defend these three losers, best try and at least get something for Beltre while the Bo Sox need help. Likely the rest of the league will let him pass, they can see what a poor excuse for a hitter Beltre is during his tenure with the M's.

The failure to dump Washburn today will hinder the development of our young pitchers who are making a case for a long-term with the M's. Washburn gives you nothing short of worthy of his contract, it was Bavasi who bought high beyond the true market value of the bum. So now there is little to do, particularly given the events of today. No one will now claim him and if you put him out on the wire, he will clear waivers so that the M's will be stuck with his $10 million contract. As a result, there are now no options for dumping this bum contract during this season.

ScottM would have you believe that you can build around these bums and compete next year, utter absolute nonsense. The M's need to move and scottM needs to get his head out of that Alien's behind before the UFO hauls him away.

Posted by Bill

11:11 PM, Aug 14, 2008

I've got 5 bucks that says scottM and his nemesis are the same person.

Posted by scottM

11:17 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Cap't P: I'd still rather see Raul at DH––a proven commodity––than two draft picks who might be four years off if they pan out.

I've been pleased with Lopez at the plate, but the Yuni/Lopez infield has been a disappointment. They are both young enough to turn it around. I, too, have more confidence that Lopez will improve at 2nd simply because he showed what he can do at the plate. Yuni started the season showing some plate discipline, but reverted to his free swinging ways. I don't trust his cavalier attitude either at the plate or in the field. He needs a wake up call like the one Lopez got last offseason.

Will he respond? I do like his POTENTIAL, but he's such a question mark.

Posted by CaptainPoopy

11:23 PM, Aug 14, 2008

If we were a winning ball club, I'd be stoked about the thought of Raul as our DH. Right now, as it stands, we suck. We wont be good for at least 3-4 more years. Especially with Lincoln/Howard at the helm.

I'm ok with taking chances at two highly ranked players coming in as opposed to keeping Raul.

Posted by uuuuuuuuuuu

11:37 PM, Aug 14, 2008

Raul would be the best DH in the league, of course u would be pumped to have him DH

Posted by kujo

12:27 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Geoff''s scenario is not so far fetched. Not sure why people want to see things in such absolutes. If the Twins see a league average pitcher fitting the team for a playoff push by allowing them to strengthen their bullpen how many dollars is that worth? What is to stop them from trading him in the winter, even if they have to pay part of his salary or dump it? A league average lefty will always have a job. A trip to the post season would more than cover that cost in many ways. Not rocket science to figure that out. It's really not that big of a gamble and the Twins seem to do ok at analysis.

If he is put on waivers again though it would be interesting to see if the Yanks grab him. Unless of course they are starting to give up on the post season.

Posted by Adam

12:27 AM, Aug 15, 2008

There's no misconception being spread, it's just in your mind.

Feel free to try to refute my argument with actual facts.

Since the beginning of 2006, no regular AL 3B other than A-Rod and Lowell has hit better than Beltre, measured by OPS. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that Beltre plays half his games in Safeco, which is very hard on RH hitters.

Further, Beltre's defense at 3B is as good as it gets.

So, again, feel free to explain why Beltre is a bust, or whatever you want to call him...

Posted by scottM

12:37 AM, Aug 15, 2008

from Bill: "I've got 5 bucks that says scottM and his nemesis are the same person."

That's actually very funny!!

And I'd bet double that Bill and CS are the same person, except that this would imply that CS would be clever enough to turn the tables on me by insinuating that I am the one with the multiple-blogger-personality-disorder. CS isn't that savvy. Just read his last bloated post.

If you had said that I am the same poster as Frankie, Walla Walla Girl, and Guillénforcer, I would at least take this as a high compliment. ;=)

Or, maybe I'm a Seattle Times plant, and actually GEOFF, too......

Posted by doug

1:01 AM, Aug 15, 2008

we pay him huge amounts of money for that season he had in LA, instead the guy bats .230-.250 is awful with RISP (the best baseball stat, ask joe morgan) and is an easy out for any pitcher with half a brain. low and away or fastball above the head. just cuz most 3b suck doesnt mean beltbust is a good player. he is one of the worst in baseball.

Posted by Jefza Hack

2:52 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Nice willful obfuscation, Geoff.

The Twins were stuck with Washburn. No negotiation was required. All of your words are ridiculous and designed to mislead.

Even if the Mariners try to contend, Washburn shoudl nto be on the team next year. He'll be old and grossly overpaid. Morrow, Smith and Feierabend are on the horizon.

Posted by Bill

7:16 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Or maybe one of the infamous LL or USSM spies patrolling Geoff's blog keeping track of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Posted by scottM

7:24 AM, Aug 15, 2008

I'm really Brett J Miller (or is that Brent J Miller?). And I'm not infamous, I'm famous. GEOFF spent a whole post responding to my little dig.

Who are you Bill? We want to know.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

7:43 AM, Aug 15, 2008

About a month to go until Howard sends his annual "thank you for your support" letter out to season tix holders - I think next season, the # of season tix will drop to Kingdome levels meaning less than 10,000. Hard to believe how far this train wreck has fallen - Lincoln and Armstrong have both been hiding ever since the June press conference where Bonehead Bill was booted.

Maybe the idea of the Baghead Day protest needs to be resurrected for Fan Appreciation Night on Friday, 9/26. The first Baghead Day plans were scuttled because everyone was so happy Bonehead and Mac were both fired however the problem goes much futher beyond those two - mainly the terrible trio of Lincoln, Armstrong, and Yamauchi.

Posted by Pirata Morado

8:31 AM, Aug 15, 2008

To Adam: You want a simple explanation as of why Beltre has been a bust?

We've paid him 50 million dollars for this WPA:
In his 4 years here he has "added" -0.58 Total WPA, I don't care what his OPS is, what's the use of a "decent" OPS if he can't hit when it counts?

Was that simple enough?

Posted by Full Count

9:01 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Lee Pelekoudas is so done!, it is now time to limit his current ability to make deals because anything he will do from this point on will be dumber than keeping Washburn. It certainly shows that the stupid baseball management wasn't all Bavasi, it appears as if it is everywhere in the current Mariners front office., Idiots.

Posted by 11Records

9:20 AM, Aug 15, 2008

In terms of replacing Beltre at 3rd Base, it loooks like Matt Tuiasosopo may have turned the corner a little. Check out his stats since the start of June... Keep in mind that he's in AAA and he turned 22 in May.

58 games, 231 AB's, 69 hits, 17 doubles, 11HR, 46 RBI, 60K's, 33 Walks.

So - he's right around 300/400/500, and that's over a pretty significant amount of time. And the argument can be made that April and May were spend adjusting to AAA pitching. A few too many K's, but he's shown the ability to take walks at every level.

Actually - Check out Ryan Braun's numbers in 59 games in AA as a 22 year old...

Really similar. And, Tui is playing in a more advanced league. I'm not saying Tui is gonna turn into Ryan Braun, but if he even comes close to that, he'll be a really good pro. And, he might be ready as soon as next June or July. In which case if the M's are out of contention, they can trade Beltre and call him up.

Posted by Ryan

9:27 AM, Aug 15, 2008


I agree with you about Beltre. I think what most of these people are n him for is his inability to hit in the clutch, which is a team issue all around. I don't understand the ragging on Beltre either. this team has problems that go way beyond that. I would take Beltre at third base anyday. His defense alone has probably saved or won some games for us.

I just don' get it either.

Posted by Sounders

9:29 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Beltre sucks. I don't need no stinking numbers or baseball yogus bogus to see with my own eyes that he's an easy out. He is utterly useless when it matters,he gets all his RBI and HR numbers against bogus pitchers when games are out of reach.

And this year, he even only been average defensively

Posted by jesse

9:41 AM, Aug 15, 2008

The Mariners look old, worn out and cannot hit in the clutch at all! It is even boring to watch them play sometimes. If i was Wasburn i would have been really ticked off to watch my 6th win disappear into thin air. Putz is human but that was another bullpen implosion that is so common to this team. 110 million for a team of lazy, non clutch, non caring players who cant wait for the season to end so they can spend the millions they are making, not earning.

Posted by Patrick

9:41 AM, Aug 15, 2008

A player off the 40 man roster? The M's would be lucky to get a midlevel minor leaguer for Washburn and his bloated contract. They should be happy just to shed that money. It's a little presumptious of them to ask for anything else because Wash, while some could argue not a 5th starter, isn't any better than a 4th starter. And I'm also pretty sure that the Twins don't view him as better than what they already have but they do view him as a guy who can relieve some of those high inning counts getting heaped on young guys who've never pitched this much.

Posted by diablo

9:48 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Sometimes, things just don't turn out the way you plan. Yes, accountability is important. However, we can moan and blame all we want -- the bottom line is that nothing we, as the fans, or the Mariner management, counted on this year worked out. The starting pitchers have stunk and been hurt. The new manager (only second year)had much to learn. I am most disappointed that there will be no playoff baseball. But sometimes things just don't turn out the way you want. If anyone doesn't believe that the M's will be back, and fix their problems, I think they are wrong. Lincoln is just being honest (and accurate) -- we'll be back next year..hopefully withTeixeira!

Posted by jesse

9:54 AM, Aug 15, 2008

To blame injuries on this teams disgraceful playing is ludicrist!!! They are not the only team with injuries....and the rest of the teams have sucked it up and played through it. But not the MIGHTY MARINERS, they are like a bunch of whinning brats at a Little League game. Maybe they can join Manny's fan club, ya know the one where you are such a superstar that if you don't feel like playing you just don't!!!

Posted by Lance

10:13 AM, Aug 15, 2008

If the team were to rebuild next year then Felix is gone. He'll be unwilling to sign a long-term deal, so the M's will have to learn to compete quickly or be forced to trade their only ace in another year before they lose him for nothing more than compensatory draft pick, as happened with Arod.

And, that doesn't even speak to Ichiro, and his willingness to go through another quasi-rebuilding process this team tried to pull off in the Bavasi years.

That considerd having Washburn around this winter won't be such a bad thing. You could trade him then, if not deal Erik Bedard, although you'd definitely selling low there. My guess is Jarrod goes this winter. Then, with Bedard, add Morrow and another lefty, be it Rowland-Smith or Feierabend.

But, there won't be a simple Pittsburgh Pirates/Kansas City Royals type of rebuild. That's not the way things are done here. Not with Ichiro, Felix, and those Nintendo millions around.

Posted by xteve

10:20 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Par for the course for the stupidest organization in MLB and possibly all of professional sports.

Nothing that Stincoln and co. do should surprise anyone any more. At this point the best fans can hope for is that they finish with the worst record in MLB so everyone involved with this sorry excuse for a team gets their pink slips.

Posted by scottM

10:36 AM, Aug 15, 2008

"the M's will have to learn to compete quickly"

Great points, Lance. This is why the M's are not trigger happy to unload player salaries without players coming back the other way. If the M's are widely perceived to not be trying to field a competitive team, the decline in attendance could be devasting, and VERY difficult to build back. This is why I think we may see a few key off season trades mixed in with trying to get the most out of Beltre, Silva, Bedard and Batista.

Posted by wag the dog

10:42 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Oh c'mon Geoff, Howard/Chuck, baseball wizards that they are, are totally capable of deciding whether the team should try to contend or rebuild. ;-)

I don't understand why the Mariners aren't aggressively searching for a GM right now. In this waste of a season, the Mariners are making it a bigger waste by not committing to a new GM and moving aggressively in the direction the GM charts. Let the rebuild begin immediately. Sacrifice your ego, admit the team is a disaster built on a shoddy foundation, tear it down and rebuild with strong cornerstones that will last.

At least they're auditioning some of the young players but that's not enough. The team is in disarray with a roster full of guys who probably don't fit into a prosperous future (for varying reasons). They need a new philosophy and a GM who is actually capable of 1) not playing b1tch to a front of office of idiots and 2) executing on his/her roster building strategy effectively.

Posted by Ron

10:55 AM, Aug 15, 2008

I am not thrilled with Riggleman and some of his decisions (i.e. not playing Lopez the other night), but to say the M's have no excuses is just showing you miss your buddy John McLaren and you need to get over it. Losing 200 rbis (Guillen & Sexson)for virtually the whole year, is not something you can overcome very easily. The M's do need an overhaul - say goodbye to Washburn, Batista, Johjima, Cairo and bring in youth. I also question the M's scouting. How can other teams, like the Twins and Rays have so many good, young prospects and the M's "strong" prospects in pitching fall on their face., The only one that looks like he will be decent, and he needs to stay healthy is Morrow. Something is wrong. .

Posted by Adam

10:58 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Beltre sucks. I don't need no stinking numbers or baseball yogus bogus to see with my own eyes that he's an easy out.

Could someone please explain to me why "saberheads" are the ones considered arrogant? At least they bring impartial data to the table...

The truth is that Beltre's career numbers w/RISP and w/the bases empty are almost identical. (scroll down)

He's been the third-best hitting 3B in the AL since 2006, and that's with him hitting in Safeco, which might just be the worst park in the AL for RH hitters. He plays the best defense of any 3B (with perhaps the possible exception of Lowell).

So his WPA stinks. Big deal. Personally, I'm not a huge WPA fan for hitters because it takes things into account outside a hitter's control (such as whether there are men on base, what the inning is, what other players do after you).

I've heard two main criticisms of Beltre, aside from the "clutch" issue:

1) He swings at too many pitches out of the zone
2) He doesn't make good contact

Here's the thing: His two best years were 2006 and 2007, when his OPS was a good 60-70 points higher than it is this year. But here's the rub:

His outside-of-strike-zone swinging percentage this year is the same as it was in 2006, and less than it was in 2007. So it's really doubtful his suckiness is related to swinging at balls out of the zone.

Further, his contact rate is the best it's been since he's been in Seattle. And just to back that up, his LD% is the best of his career, so he's not making crappy contact just for the sake of it.

And did I mention that his walk percentage is the best it's been since 2000?

So, we all know his numbers are down this year. However, he's swinging at fewer pitches out of the zone, he's making more and better contact, and he's being more selective at the plate. These are the main criticisms with Beltre's skill set, and even though it appears that his skills are better than ever, he's not producing.

Anyone got any ideas?

Or maybe, just maybe, Beltre's a very good player having an unucky year. His BABIP is 30 points under his career BABIP, even though he's hitting the ball harder and showing better plate discipline.

I'm pretty sure that if his BABIP was 30 points higher, his numbers would look a lot more like 2006 and 2007.

But let's ignore all that and just trust our "own eyes."

BTW - if anyone wants to check my work, here's Beltre's numbers:

Posted by kwk

11:10 AM, Aug 15, 2008

In his 4 years here he has "added" -0.58 Total WPA, I don't care what his OPS is, what's the use of a "decent" OPS if he can't hit when it counts?

Was that simple enough?

I don't think you've looked at the big picture with regard to Beltre's numbers.

Beltre has been insanely unlucky this year. His LD% and BB% are up, and his K% is down. His HR/FB% has not changed significantly. His illogically low BABIP is mostly a product of (bad) luck. His WPA-based Clutch scores have been positive every year in Seattle except this year, and his unluckiness is playing a part in that.

WPA doesn't adjust for park or handedness, and it gives you no idea of the value he adds on defense. Someone a lot smarter than you or I has Beltre listed as one of the top 12 position players in the AL this year.

Beltre is a good player. Please direct your vitriol in the direction of the management.

Posted by Ryan

11:51 AM, Aug 15, 2008

Beltre has hit more balls hard this year, with fewer results. Is he unlucky?? Yes. Does he suck?? Based on his numbers, which I agree are a little down, I can see where people would think that. Everyone's numbers with the exception of Ibanez and Lopez are down. If you look at the numbers that Adam so nicely presented us with, his strikeouts are right on par with every other year. No more this year than normal. He does draw walks, and I believe he's second on the team in runs scored, maybe third. He's on base enough to do that..

Posted by Ryan

11:52 AM, Aug 15, 2008

The real issue is why is Washburn still here?? This ragging on Beltre is ridiculous. He's not going anywhere.

Posted by Ryan

11:56 AM, Aug 15, 2008

More Beltre:

The man is a vaccuum cleaner at third base, probably the toughest position other than catcher to play. Alot of balls are hit really hard at you. Most of his errors are of the throwing variety. He typically gets to every ball. Let's direct our frustration at Yuni, who seems to make an eror every night, or mostly at management which has done NOTHING to improve this team.

Recent entries

Aug 15, 08 - 10:41 AM
Why Twins wanted Washburn

Aug 14, 08 - 03:26 PM
Ibanez, Washburn staying put

Aug 14, 08 - 12:42 PM
Ibanez likely to stay

Aug 13, 08 - 11:15 PM
Balentien ends monkey business

Aug 13, 08 - 09:57 PM
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