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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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August 5, 2008 7:58 AM

Is Guillen M's man?

Posted by Geoff Baker

Plenty of you have written in since last week's latest episode involving Jose Guillen in Kansas City. Guillen has strongly denied an ESPN Deportes story that he is not on speaking terms with Royals manager Trey Hillman and wants out of KC. Some of you have mentioned a possible match for the Mariners, in which they could jettison the remaining salary of Carlos Silva in exchange for the final two years, $24 million owed Guillen.

The Mariners need some extra outfield power and Guillen's 16 homers, 73 RBI look -- on the surface at least -- to be a possible solution. His clubhouse presence was appreciated in Seattle. From what we saw in KC the brief time I was there last month, the young Royals were playing hard as well. Even if Guillen wasn't getting along with Hillman, that's not neccesarily a bad influence on the team itself. Only if they let it become one. Former Royals pitcher and current broadcaster Paul Splittorff agrees. From what we've seen, Guillen has driven in runs. More runs than any current Mariners player until Raul Ibanez went nuts in last night's seventh inning. He is producing.

But how well?

As of yesterday, Guillen's on-base percentage was at .295. That's too low. Too much like a whole lot of other Mariners have put up this season. His on-base-plus slugging percentage of .757 is also rather ordinary for a right fielder. To me, it's a lot more indicative of what might lie ahead than his 73 RBI. So, that gives me great hesitation. As good as Guillen was last season, and as strong a clubhouse presence as he was, his numbers matter as well.

The last thing this team needs is another Carl Everett. Guilen isn't quite where Everett was with the M's in 2006. But his numbers have fallen. Outside of his RBI total, which is dependant more on other runners ahead of him getting on-base than an OPS total.

That's my take. What's yours? For now, unless a further look at the numbers showed something more indicative of why his OPS is down 60 points from last year, I'd pass. You could get close to that production from Wladimir Balentien, I'd suspect, once he stops striking out every second at-bat.

On other fronts, let's see what happens with Brandon Morrow today. That start by Miguel Batista last night was discouraging to say the least. The M's could use another starting arm up in Seattle. Ryan Rowland-Smith looks to be about ready. Moving Morrow now so he can transform to a starting role and calling up Rowland-Smith to take his roster spot could be in the cards. This rotation needs more innings.


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Posted by Joe C

8:22 AM, Aug 05, 2008

I can see why the Mariners would make a Guillen-Silva deal - to get out from under that horrible horrible contract.

But the Royals would be making a deal of Guillen's issues for Silva's longer worse contract. I don't know that they'd do that.

But if we gave them Washburn and Vidro, maybe.

Posted by fred

8:29 AM, Aug 05, 2008

No, Guillen would have helped this year but not next year or in subsequent years. Bavasi did not even make a qualifying offer to Guillen, thus costing the Ms a good draft pick.

The Ms have some outfielders and pitching which should be ready next year. Let us see them the rest of this year---Feirabend, Balentien, R-Smith appear ready now. LaHair has done well thus far but needs far more at-bats. It is a pleasure to see a first baseman actually fielding his position. Wilson at AA also appears ready. He has made an incredible leap from a slow spring start. Good speed, arm, power, and draws walks despite striking out (as expected in a slugger).

No more acquisitions of marginal veterans. Keep a core of a few useful veterans; blend in young players; rebuild.

Posted by M Dogg

8:30 AM, Aug 05, 2008

"You could get close to that production from Wladimir Balentien, I'd suspect, once he stops striking out every second at-bat"
When are we going to find out? He is tearing it up in Tacoma- Again. The only way to find out if he is a major league player is to give him some regular PT at the major league level. Which serves the future of the team better: Having him come up and share LF/DH with Ibanez or trotting Vidro out there every night?

Posted by bikeman

8:30 AM, Aug 05, 2008

If the rumor is true then that is why he was signed to a one year deal plus a option by the Mariners. Seven teams in seven years, I don't think he's learned his lesson. Now if the Royals were going to pay all of his salary...

Posted by BrianL

8:31 AM, Aug 05, 2008

fred - Here's the real kicker: Bavasi didn't even have to make a real offer to get those draft picks. He just had to offer arbitration, which Guillen almost certainly would have declined.

Posted by Guillenforcer

8:33 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Give KC whichever Mariner hack they want (Washburn, Silva, Batista, Vidro) or any combination thereof.

Restructure Jose's contract with profanity laden incentives - ie. $1000 for a verbal smackdown on a rookie pitcher that can't hit the zone. - $1500 for a WTF to Yuni for swinging at that first pitch in the dirt, etc.

JG is:
The Cream in our Coffee
The Spring In Our Step
The Mojo in our SoDo.

Sergant at Arms
JOSE GUILLEN SOCIETY

Posted by DD

8:35 AM, Aug 05, 2008

1. Why would the Royals take Silva? The M's would have to eat 1/2 his salary. Or maybe BB will pony it up since it was his mistake.

2. Guillen is not the solution. As Geoff said, he is just another guy like all the others we have.

3. Has Washburn cleared waivers? With Joba being out, and Rasner sucking eggs, I can't believe the Yanks aren't ready to deal.

Posted by niner

8:45 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Are you really claiming Guillen makes a difference in the clubhouse again?

Clearly you haven't been paying attention, but the Royals want to dump him because he is a clubhouse cancer!

Besides, not even the Royals are dumb enough to take on Fatty Silva's contract.

Posted by Mike

8:46 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Since you brought up Balentien could you ask Pelekoudas why the heck we're giving at bats to Vidro and not seeing Balentien learn to hit major league pitching. People have been asking this question for weeks and we haven't heard a good answer.

Posted by Jose Guillen Gesellschaft Büro Berlin

8:56 AM, Aug 05, 2008

All Hail Guillen!

Posted by marichland

8:59 AM, Aug 05, 2008

DFAing Vidro, Cairo & Burke and bringing up Balantein, Hulett and Johnson would help the team more by letting them see who can contribute next year. Guillen is past his prime and the Mariners need young left handed power hitters.

Posted by Mike

9:01 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Yeah, let's pay $24M over 2 years to bring back the 12th best hitting RFer in the league who plays lousy defense. Forget offense, forget defense, let's get us some of that clubhouse fire.

Maybe their wider reach than my pleadings will get my earlier question answered.

http://ussmariner.com/2008/08/04/game-111-twins-at-mariners-2/

Posted by M Dogg

9:05 AM, Aug 05, 2008

"DFAing Vidro, Cairo & Burke and bringing up Balantein, Hulett and Johnson would help the team more by letting them see who can contribute next year."
I couldn't agree more. Could someone (Geoff,Larry,Rick the Peanut Man) ask and find out why this isn't happening? What is it they are waiting for?

Posted by Mike

9:13 AM, Aug 05, 2008

At first I thought they were just waiting until the All Star break but that came and went. Then I thought maybe they were waiting for the trading deadline which I thought was stupid but it also came and went. Balentien and whomever else we might call up have lost the opportunity for over 100 PAs which would go a long way to telling us who we might be able to count on next year. I'm not sure that Balentien is the answer in the OF and I'm not sure Diaz is an MLB DH but if one of those guys learns to handle MLB pitching that's one hole we DON'T have to fill elsewhere and we don't spend big $$$.

It's so obvious. Am I missing something?

Posted by Jonathan

9:21 AM, Aug 05, 2008

DD-
I couldn't agree more. Bottom line with Jose Guillen, he is a genuine baller. No BS He plays the game and has a rocket arm. I would love to get him back if it was still April but in August when the season is Royally F'd there is no reason to get Guillen. Guillen is my favorite player in all of baseball, he plays with a chip on his shoulder and that is what these sorry M's need most. They have no Balls!!!!

Posted by Benthic

9:27 AM, Aug 05, 2008

I completely agree with Fred. Dealing for Guillen now would be a misguided attempt to turn back the clock. The M's should have re-signed him last year, but he's only getting older, and to take on the ridiculous contract KC gave him would be a mistake.
If we trade Silva (and I'm not sure anyone will take him without cash), it should be for youth...cheap, talented youth.

Posted by meagain

9:32 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Is it possible for the guy who writes the blog to be a troll.? Talk about stirring an already bubbling pot... (And Geoff, it's a joke.)

I'm not a member of either Guillen society, but to me he appears at least as much immature as inspirational. Carl Everett is a bit of a harsh comparison; Carl is from a different planet.

This would be my question: for the next two years, would you rather have Guillen or Ibanez? I don't think there's room for both on a roster that needs to get younger.

Posted by scottM

9:34 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Thanks for addressing the prospects of Guillén, GEOFF, but you haven't helped your prospects for admission in our esteemed Society.

There is ample evidence that José would have signed a two year deal with the M's. He very much liked it here. Even with the nice salary the Royals gave him (3year/$36m), your year-to-date snapshot of his first season there doesn't show how impactful he can be when he's on his game. This is not to say that he hasn't slumped in K.C.

The question––similar to the one about team chemistry––would be whether or not Guillén would have slumped as much as a Mariner. In Seattle, he would have been in a familiar environment, with teammates he truly liked and, who responded to his fiery presence.

This from the KCStar blog:

Consider this: for those 44 glorious games between May 7 and June 23, Guillen hit .380 with 20 doubles, 10 homers, and 45 RBIs, carrying a bad offense and providing the Royals their first feared hitter since Sweeney was healthy.

In his 58 other games, he's hit .160 with nine doubles, four homers, and 26 RBIs, carrying the flag for his big contract and team's overall struggles.

To me this does not indicate that Guillén is declining in any noticeable fashion because of age, but that April was an adjustment month with the new team, and that his most recent funk coincided with his frustration with the KC team. Of course, such projecting is highly speculative, might or might not have happened here. Undeniably, José Guillén with the M's in '08 would have been a vast offensive improvement to Wilkerson/Balentien. Also, this would not have been such a lackluster clubhouse with José on board and the M's tanking.

As for acquiring Guillén, a straight up trade for José Silva would be a no brainer. It would be very surprising to see KC go for that swap, but the M's should do that in a heartbeat if given the chance.

As for 2009, the probability of Guillén being a true asset for this team is a few quantum leaps higher than Wlad learning to be a poised batter at the MLB level in the next two month. Of course, bring Wlad up and prove me wrong, but Balentien does not seem close to ready (unlike Clement, LaHair and Reed). More of the same MLB play from Wlad is not acceptible. He also received a much more extended look than Clement the first time they came up this year, so it's not as though he was slighted. His flailing was painful to watch. Clement and LaHair and Reed don't flail at the plate.

For those of us who don't want to write off 2009 (which, by deduction, you seem to belong in the blow-the-whole-thing-up crowd, GEOFF), José Guillén should be viewed by the M's as one viable alternative this offseason (see my earlier exchange with Big Ebu). Watching Balentien "striking out every second at-bat" is not an acceptable option.

Furthermore, for those of us fans who want to make the most of Felix/Bedard/Washburn (or RRS)/Morrow/Silva and the rest of this core team in 2009, M's F.O. needs to be aggressive this off-season in acquiring offensive punch in LF and DH especially.

This offseason, Guillén needs to be considered as a viable option in OF.


THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY

Posted by scottM

9:43 AM, Aug 05, 2008

"Restructure Jose's contract with profanity laden incentives - ie. $1000 for a verbal smackdown on a rookie pitcher that can't hit the zone. - $1500 for a WTF to Yuni for swinging at that first pitch in the dirt, etc."

You're making us proud there, Guillénforcer!!


Executive Committee
THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY

Posted by NB

9:48 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Jose Guillen is not an answer to any good question. Unless the question is "How do we shed Carlos Silva's contract?" in which case the answer is "yes."

Posted by Idaho Invader

9:55 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Doesn't Guillen still suck vs righties? Granted, that makes him perfectly fit in w/ the rest of the bunch. But he murders lefties and that won't really help this team that much imho.

Bring up W-Lad already and lets see what he can do before next year starts!

Posted by 11Records

9:55 AM, Aug 05, 2008

I think that JG question is a non-starter. The Royals won't take on a worse and on year longer contract to get rid of Guillen's.

I agree with what DD said earlier. The second I saw on Sportscenter that Joba had a sore shoulder, I was like, "Awesome! Maybe the M's can still get rid of Washburn!"

And - that would enable them to put Miguel in the pen, send down Morrow, and call up Rowland-Smith AND Feierabend and put them both in the rotation.

At the same time, they should cut Vidro and Cairo and call up Diaz and Wlad.

The crazy thing is - these moves wouldn't only give the team a better glimpse into the future - they should give the team a better chance to win TODAY.

Posted by kennyb

9:59 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Bring back Jose Guillen? Why? Because in 44 games he did this well? Because he is a good clubhouse guy? What a joke. If he was such a good clubhouse guy he would stick with a team longer than 1 year.
Why do the people here insist that they want to move the M's forward and then try to go backward? Maybe we should go get Freddy Garcia, he was good once.
The FO has hurt this team by overpaying for past performance too much already. Why add a guy who is below average in the field and at the plate? Sure, he has a great arm. Too bad he wouldn't need to display it if he could just catch the ball in the first place.
Everyone knows that spring training is not a big enough sample size to make too many decisions on. Why not play the kids now? Let them have a nice long fall training this year, they will be that far ahead next year. If they can't perform, we will know what to go look for this off season.
As far as a clubhouse influence goes, I would be happy to get in the under-performers face for 1/2 the league minimum.

Posted by meagain

10:20 AM, Aug 05, 2008

kennyb, I don't know if 1/2 the league minimum would be enough for that enformcement job. If you get in Silva's face, he might go Prince Fielder on you, and he's almost as large. And Batista writes about serial killers. I think I would pass on that assignment.

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

10:21 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Here's what I like about Guillén:
* Proven performer in Seattle.
* Appears to be a better option--offensively and defensively--than any OF's in our minor league system.
* Great throwing arm. Some power at the plate. RBI machine.
* Profanity-laden clubhouse motivator, which is sorely needed on this team. Says what he means, and means what he says.
* Wants to WIN.

Put my signature on the petition to return José Guillén to Seattle.

Great post, Guillénforcer.

Horrible comparison to Carl Everett, Geoff. Boo hiss.

José Guillén is our man. Let's dump any/all of our other geezers (Washburn, Silva, Batista, Vidro, Cairo) for this guy.

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration.

Walla Walla Girl, Treasurer
THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY

Posted by Washington State Attorney General's Office

10:31 AM, Aug 05, 2008

he Washington State Mental Hospital has sent out an alert: round up all members of the Jose Guillen Society. They are thought to be clinically insane, use all force and means necessary to subdue them. Put ScottM , Walla Walla Girl, and Guillenforcer in straight jackets. Protect normal society from these lunatics at all costs.

In combatting this madness worldwide, appeals are being made to the German government to apprehend members of the Jose Guillen Gesellschaft Büro Berlin.

The Guillen Madness must be stopped before it destroys the sanity of our society and the world.

Posted by stopthemadness

10:31 AM, Aug 05, 2008

These people that keep posting "Jose Guillen Society" have absolutely ruined this blog. Geoff by you raising the topic above all you have done is stoked the fire of an already tired, boring, and irritating propostion. Thanks for helping to ruin this blog.

Those of you boasting "Seargant at arms" "President" "Traveling secretary of the Jose Guillen Society" why don't all of you just create your own website and blog with each other all day because the rest of us who don't live in Bizarro world would really like to blog about topics and issues that are real and valid.

Posted by Washington State Attorney General's Office

10:34 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Umbuchungsdaten auf Deutsch:

Das Washington Staatliches Geistiges Krankenhaus hat eine Alarmbereitschaft geschickt: rund auf alle Mitglieder die Jose Guillen Gesellschaft. Sie werden gedacht, klinisch unsinnig zu sein, benutzen alle Kraft und bedeutet notwendig, sie zu unterwerfen. Stellen Sie ScottM, Walla Walla Mädchen, und Guillenforcer in geraden Jacken. Schützen Sie normale Repost in German/ Gesellschaft von diesen Wahnsinnigen unbedingt.

Beim Bekämpfen dieses Wahnsinns weltweit, werden Aufforderungen zur deutschen Regierung gemacht, Mitglieder den Jose Guillen Gesellschaft Büro Berlin zu verhaften.

Der Guillen Wahnsinn muss aufgehalten werden, bevor es die geistige Gesundheit von unserer Gesellschaft und der Welt zerstört.

Posted by scrapiron

10:38 AM, Aug 05, 2008

How would these numbers look in a Seattle Mariners uniform?

HR RBI OBP SLG AVG OPS
22 88 .372 .544 .288 .916

And what if I told you that you could have those numbers for $11 million a year less than Jose Guillen, would you want him?

That's Victor Diaz' numbers at Tacoma this year. He currently has the 2nd most RBIs of anyone in the PCL. Before you spend $24 million on a veteran at the end of his career, how about you give DIaz a chance?

Posted by Forget the nonsense

10:39 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Good post Scrapiron!

Posted by meagain

10:39 AM, Aug 05, 2008

To quote the Captain of the Katzenjammer Kids:

Enough is too much!

Posted by antipost

10:39 AM, Aug 05, 2008

I used to think that this blog was worth reading. Now all of you have killed this once promising bloggerville. Hope you're happy all you "Guillen society" morons.

People look to have a sensible and rational conversation but all you guys can do is blog about irrational bull crap.

Geoff you just lost a reader after the stunt you just pulled with the Guillen crap.

Posted by M Dogg

10:43 AM, Aug 05, 2008

That's Victor Diaz' numbers at Tacoma this year. He currently has the 2nd most RBIs of anyone in the PCL. Before you spend $24 million on a veteran at the end of his career, how about you give DIaz a chance?
Sounds great! When do we get to see him in Seattle? Hello Lee? Chuck? Howard? Chris? ANYONE?

Posted by Mike

10:43 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Aw c'mon. While I don't personally find this Jose Guillen nonsense funny (Novice, on the other hand I thought was hysterical), at least Geoff is responding to his readership and trying to have fun with a season gone awry.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

10:44 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Oh, ugh. Geoff... I... ugh.

I think I'm going to skip the blog for a couple days until this Guillen chatter blows over. I mean, I've had patience for a lot of recurring gripes (Bedard trade, Vidro having a job) and running gags (posters pretending to the be front office), but the way this has been "discussed" in the blog is just damned silly.

Have fun.

Posted by Scanman

10:49 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Well said scrapiron. We need to get younger and does anyone know for a fact that our young players are not the very leaders we seek?

Posted by Jose Guillen Gesellschaft Büro Berlin

10:51 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Der weltweite Jose Guillen Gesellschaft kann nicht gestoppt werden! Die psychische Gesundheit aller Mariner Fans ging aus dem Fenster lange her!
All Hail Guillen!

Posted by Jonathan

10:56 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Cairo and Burke are not going to be cut, so I hope people learn to get over it.

First of all their not keeping anyone out of the lineup like Vidro is.

Honestly, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense to bring Tullett and Johnson up as back ups when they can play every day in the minors. I wouldn't be surprised if Tullett and Johnson come up in September however, that's different because their minor league seasons are over plus our roster will have been expanded.

Posted by Office of the President

10:57 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Schon begrüßen sie ihn mag Adolph Hitler, muss dieser Jose Guillen Wahnsinn weltweit und unbedingt aufgehalten werden. Zielen Sie auf alle Atomwaffen nach Berlin ab.

Halten Sie den Guillen Wahnsinn auf.

Posted by Yoda

10:58 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Ryan Rowland-Smith (2-0), being converted from a reliever to a starter by the Mariners, pitched six innings for the victory. He allowed six hits and two earned runs while striking out four.


And we're waiting to call him up....Why again? Oh that's right we don't know. None of us know. The FO doesn't even know.

Move Morrow to AAA call up RRS to take his spot. Put Badtista in the pen. Problem solved. Until we call these guys up we will never know what we have. Nails on a friggin chalkboard this team is - Yoda

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

11:08 AM, Aug 05, 2008

With those numbers, Diaz should be with the M's RIGHT NOW.

Posted by Clearing deadwood

11:09 AM, Aug 05, 2008

With the news of Joba's arm troubles in New York, Lee, Chuck, and Howie should be putting a deal together design to solve some of the M's problems with overpriced, underachieving veterans. As we are all saying it is imperative to subtract some of the Conehead Bill signings, improvement through subtraction.

We need to move Washburn - free salary, make room for home grown talent, etc. - the Yankees want to move Kei Igawa and his monster salary. So lets throw in our own bloated salary - Buffalo Silva. In effect, the Yanks get two for one, we take Igawa and trade him along with Johjima to a Japanese team for the best prospect to he had.


Posted by wag the dog

11:11 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Among that things that Guillen has going for him is a proven ability to hit respectably at Safeco and a proven ability to provide the type of firely leadership that gets other guys off their butts. These are two traits the Mariners sorely need.

But, I think there are plenty of things working against a successful reunion in Seattle. First, Guillen is 32 and if the Mariners haven't learned anything else these past few seasons you'd think they would have learned that 33-34 is the age when many players start to see their skills erode. I'd rather get rid of a guy a season too early than a season too late. If we bring Guillen back for next season I think there's a strong chance that what we'll be getting is a guy who is starting to show his age. In the real world, 33 is hardly old. In the baseball world, it's not young.

I would like to see the Mariners commit to more players who are young and on the rise instead of continually investing in older players who are either in decline or likely to start declining sooner rather than later. Guillen is , for his many attributes, likely just another aging veteran. And a surly one, when the losing mounts, at that.

Guillen is probably, at best, a one or two season stop gap. Yet another attempt at avoiding a full fledged rebuild. The Mariners have tried that approach for five+ seasons. At what point do they admit a flawed philosophy and head in a different direction.

Sadly, and it's likely this will be at least a decade long lament, what we really need is Adam Jones, not Jose Guillen. Young, talented, inexpensive and rapidly improving versus aging, talented, expensive and likely to start declining.

Yes, it's too late to change what's already been done but Adam Jones should be a lesson. It's likely going to take 2-3 years before Jones hits his prime, but then he'll be there for 5-8 years. He'll be hitting his prime around the time Guillen is hitting retirement. Since the Mariners are unlikely, imo, to contend in the next 2 years, it seems more productive to invest in guys who will be excelling in 2-3 years, not retiring (nor dragging a team down with a huge salary and poor production).

Posted by Guillenforcer

11:12 AM, Aug 05, 2008

For all of you haters out there,

I have been under the impression that baseball was about having fun - this blog about BASEBALL included. We all suffer through the more serious than needs to be sabermetrics discussions, hardcore number crunching, etc.....

Baseball is about the "what was, what is and what could be". Baseball for the fans is about the great debate.....my guy is better than yours, my team can beat your team, etc.

Too many extremely serious people sucking out what little life remains in theis horrible Mariner season

Too bad you cant factor chemistry and heart into the all too serious sabermetrics posts.

In a sport where success and failure rests on hundredths of percentage points, you'd think that a little lighthearted "what if's" wouldn't be met with such harshness.

Sergant at Arms
Jose Guillen Society

BTW....You people should unground your 8 year old for missing the cutoff man in last weeks little league game.

Posted by Washington State Attorney General's Office

11:14 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Acknowledging the most recent post of Walla Walla Girl, we can rescind the order for her arrest in association with the Jose Guillen Society. However, the standing order remains for the apprehension and detention of all remaining members of the mad association. Straight jackets for ScottM and Guillenforcer.

Posted by M Dogg

11:15 AM, Aug 05, 2008

"Honestly, it actually doesn't make a lot of sense to bring Tullett and Johnson up as back ups when they can play every day in the minors."
BTW- his name is Tug Hulett. The question is why not find out if they can play every day in the majors? What purpose is being served by playing Cairo and keeping a roster spot with Burke? Johnson and Clement shared DH/Catching duties in Tacoma. Why not with the M's? You would think the M's would want to find out if these guys can play at the major league level every day instead of waiting for a small number of games in September or wondering about it next spring.

Posted by ChicoV

11:16 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Guillen would have been great THIS year and for clubhouse presence not just numbers. If we are talking about next year, no way we should get him.

Its time to get young and stay young.

Posted by Miles

11:19 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Why are we even talking about Guillen? My take was that many, if not most, of the people talking about that were joking.

I'm still waiting for someone to ask Riggleman, Pelekoudas, whoever, why Cairo and Vidro are getting at bats. The season is over - time to see what all the kids can do. That way whoever is running the show next year will have plenty of information to base offseason decisions on.

Posted by chris d

11:19 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Geoff, you were not scribbling last night as Larry took your place. And I was wondering if you saw all of the posts for sports writers to ask Riggleman/ GM why Vidro is still playing for this team. Fans are pissed that we are not seeing young talent being evaluated and given a chance. Every other team has done this. WILL YOU PLEASE ASK THIS QUESTION?

Posted by chris d

11:22 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Miles since we are of like minds, would you back me with a proposal that no one blog about anything else until this team gets rid of Vidro and Cairo and brings up young talent?

Posted by chris d

11:24 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Would others back this idea of only blogging about dismissal of Vidro and Cairo until FO gets the message?

Posted by wag the dog

11:25 AM, Aug 05, 2008

"I have been under the impression that baseball was about having fun - this blog about BASEBALL included."

Winning is fun. Signing aging, skills eroding veterans to gigantic contracts only to watch them produce little on the field and in the win column is not fun. Jose Guillen doesn't strike me as the lynchpin that will returning winning to Seattle. No winning = no fun. Thus, Guillen really doesn't seem conducive to fun.

Posted by Scanman

11:26 AM, Aug 05, 2008


If there was one sports writer in this town who would ask the hard questions and demand answers he or she would be considered a God. Why then will nobody do it?

Posted by Bill

11:28 AM, Aug 05, 2008

I think it would be a mistake to bring Guillen back at this point. However, I also think it was a mistake that the M's didn't try to keep him after last season. Get rid of all the dead weight and sense of entitlement on this team and let the young players learn how to win and develop their own chemistry rather than having it shoved down their throats.

Posted by The Ancient Mariner

11:30 AM, Aug 05, 2008

chris d -

For the most part, with the exception of this Guillen nonsense, that is exactly what most of us are doing. The blog is filled with folks disgusted with Vidro, Cairo, Washburn, Batista, Silva and Johjima seeking their removal and the promotion of hungry young talent for evaluation and development. So we are already with you, but I can't see it put to an ultimatum as management has shown no inclination to listen to anything we say here or elsewhere. They seem to have another agenda that is beyond any semblance of baseball rationality.

Posted by Gordie

11:32 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Anyone hear the Lee Pelekoudas KJR interview on Mitch's show the other day? He is most definitely not the man to be the general manager. I wouldn't trust him to make the deals that need to be made, based on 1) him not making the deals that need to be made, and 2) the stupid things that came out of his mouth were Licata-esque.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

11:33 AM, Aug 05, 2008

My thoughts are that the FO is ordering that worthless players that have no future continue to be played by Riggleman (Vidro, Joh, Cairo) as a way to secure the #1 draft pick without being accused of outright tanking. Bringing up some young players who actually have some energy and enthusiasm would no doubt result in more wins thereby putting at risk the hard-earned # pick. Also, the drop in attendance could & lower broadcasting revenue may put the team into the receiving $ part of revenue sharing rather than having to pay out $ to other teams. Brilliant thinking on the part of the Lincoln if you ask me!

Posted by Guillenforcer

11:36 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Wag - I think the underlying points about Jose are that this team lacks any kind of grittiness, determination, and 'cajones'. Jose has that, and the M's screwed it up.

Taking on his contract at his age probably isn't a great idea, but the idea of some veteran leadership with a mouth and skills to be an exaple to the youngsters IS a good idea.


Which would produce winners, and ultimately FUN.

We desperately need an RBI producer that can fill his jockstrap, that's all.

Posted by Bavasi's Ghost

11:37 AM, Aug 05, 2008

One thing is perfectly clear, the non-moves and problems within the front office are still there!

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

11:39 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Fire the Front Office.

Posted by Scanman

11:44 AM, Aug 05, 2008


It would seem that Bavasi was nothing but a puppet and Lee is in the same mold. Just remember, as far as the FO. Goes, its not about wining, but all about entertainment.

Posted by taco time!

11:49 AM, Aug 05, 2008

José Guillén es la respuesta de marinos. Registrarse Guillén y ver el mar por completo 180! el comercio de materia grasa que el búfalo de agua silva a KC para Guillén es una brillante idea. Guillén nunca debería haber abandonado. Vamos a ir Guillen!

Posted by David Gee

11:50 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Geoff, you're too late. A few days ago this really handsome guy started a thread on this in the Mariner forum, and many have weighed in, most of it negative. Some have expressed that the M's should have kept Guillen (which of course is the same mistake that Bavasi kept repeating), but the guy who started the thread put those buffoons in their place and taught them something about the game of baseball.

Posted by Washington State Attorney General's Office

11:59 AM, Aug 05, 2008

Una alarma ha sido publicada por el Washington Indica la Oficina de Fiscal general detener y remitir a todos miembros de la Sociedad de Jose Guillen al Hospital psiquiátrico del Estado de Washington. ¡Este oder le incluyó Taco!

¡La locura de Guillen debe ser parada!

Posted by scottM

12:01 PM, Aug 05, 2008

from Miles: "Why are we even talking about Guillen? My take was that many, if not most, of the people talking about that were joking."

It's true that we're trying to have some fun with this. Unlike Chris of B, who attempts to be truly hilarious by talking about frogs and locusts and the end of the world, what is really driving most of the discussions on this blog lately is the rudderless void in the M's front office. It leads to one clever blogger satirizing the F.O. by blogging as the F.O. It also leads to all sorts of repeat questions:

How long will the M's play Vidro/Cairo and Ibanez in LF when there are several young prospects in the Minors deserving of an extended look, right now, in the bigs?

Are the M's planning to blow this team up or reload for 2009? This leads into the question of whether the team should go after the best Free Agents available at DH/LF and possibly First Base. The José Guillen question is a serious outgrowth of this. If the M's have no intention of competing in 2009 and, for example, plan to insert the flailing Wlad into LF for cheap, extended Major League training at the expense of a competitive team, then the José Guillen option goes away.

THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY would love to get the M's F.O. to give its fans a better idea of the team's strategy. Even without a permanent G.M. in place, I would be surprised if the M's don't have a pretty good idea of how they plan to approach Free Agency and trade strategies for 2009. Letting the fans in on the organization's broadstroke approach is not too much to ask for.

You should lighten up, Chris of Bothell. No need to be arrogant toward GEOFF on this. I'm surprised you, of all people, couldn't "get" what's been going on here. If you have a better way to get the Mariner F.O. to respond, then show us what you've got.

Posted by scrapiron

12:07 PM, Aug 05, 2008

So we didn't trade Raul Ibanez, which is fine, but we have to realize he has no future in the Mariners organization as a left fielder. The time is now to move him to first base or DH to see if he can handle those duties to decide if we want to extend an offer to him this off season. Or is he just playing his final days in a Mariner uniform so we can get the two draft picks?

Whether he is playing out the string or not, right now he is blocking Balentien or Diaz from playing in Seattle now. That's now the direction a rebuilding franchise needs to be heading.

Balentien/Reed platoon in CF. Diaz in LF. Ibanez DH. Release Vidro. Send Cairo and Bloomquist through waivers, let anyone that claims them have them. Keep one of those two.

Posted by DC

12:10 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Isn't it funny that the "non-moves" are what the Front Office gets ripped on the most for, yet two of the biggest complaints are...

1) not re-signing Guillen
2) trading Jones and Sherrill for Bedard

Seems what most of us wanted are more non-moves, not less. I know I would definitely support the non-move of unsigning Mr. Silva.

Posted by Scanman

12:18 PM, Aug 05, 2008


A plan is what we want, a well thought out and implemented direction with intelligent moves and baseball savvy. This is what we want.

Posted by Washington State Patrol

12:23 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Alert:

At 12:01 PM, there has been a sighting of the seriously deranged and clinically insane madman ScottM, all units be on alert to pick suspect up. Use extreme caution and place him in a straight jacket.

Apprehend all members of the Jose Guillen Society and transport them to the State Mental Hospital.

Posted by The Mariners FO.

12:40 PM, Aug 05, 2008


The Death of the NFL was announced today. A code of conduct for the fans. It sounds soooo much like the policy at Safeco that foot ball games will now become a sitdown and shutup affair.

Posted by Forget the Guillen nonsense

12:44 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Jose Guillen has all the indications of becoming the very kind of signing that fueled the Bill Bavasi era. Overthehill, declining in skills, nearing the end of his usefulness, and a baggage loaded history. He is no saviour for the M's and he will only hold back the necessary development time of youthful prospects.

The Jose Guillen Society is insane to think that one such player can magically make the M's competitive for next year. The failures of this team are beyond the addition of one mediocre, declining, bad tempered ballplayer.

The M's need to get young and avoid the pitfalls of such a silly instant fix. No more talk of that loser Jose Guillen.

Posted by cc

12:49 PM, Aug 05, 2008

fred, right on!

Look at the Angels as the model, or even the Yankees. Grow your own talent, then when the talent ripens, supplement with a few free agents to make your run.

Otherwise, free agents are an impediment to the team and cost you draft picks, too.

There's a reason they call it the Farm system. Let it grow, flourish and ripen.

Posted by Scanman

12:54 PM, Aug 05, 2008


Wouldn’t it be interesting to see our minor leaguers against the M’s with Silva facing either RRS or Feirabend.

Posted by deepthroat

1:05 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Still too many idiots showing up to the games at Safeco for the FO to even think of doing anything correctly.


Listen closely students; If you stop coming to the games FO will notice.

Posted by Ownerhip will always be losers

1:08 PM, Aug 05, 2008

cc,

The farm system logic only works when you have a quality one in the first place (i.e. people that can judge talent and coach it up). Brandon Morrow drafted over Tim Lincecum - does this tell you anything? Nothing against Morrow mind you b/c he's been a great success so far but the organization was staring at a home grown talent with enough local hype that there is no way he could've been overlooked. But the organization didn't like his measurements - what?

The only reason the farm system is even decent right now is b/c the Mariners have been bad enough recently that their picks were high enough to compensate for their lack of talent evaluation. Your theory is a good one but unfortunately it doesn't apply to a crappy organization like the M's.

Posted by RagArm

1:13 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Guillen is not our man. Not the answer.

He is over the peak in his career and we do not need another player who is headed down, not up.
Fire and spice is nice, but one unhappy man cannot turn this club around and change a attitude of mediocrity.

Spend our time and money on players with future potential, that's the key to having a good team in 2012.

Posted by Ben

1:20 PM, Aug 05, 2008

So is there any doubt that someone like Feierabend could produce at least as good of numbers as Batista? I would guess he can produce better numbers (he's destroying AAA as discussed in the article in this paper today). So... get him up to the big club. RRS may be close - but Feierabend is ready now.

Bastisa should be sent packing. He's more of a mystery than the books he writes.

Posted by scottM

1:21 PM, Aug 05, 2008

"The Jose Guillen Society is insane to think that one such player can magically make the M's competitive for next year."


That has never been the claim, yet José Guillén begs many key questions for the M's:

What happened to this team's intensity between August 2007 and April 2008? Only one offensive player was missing in '08 who was starting in '07. Guess who?

Do the Seattle Mariners intend to try to be competitive in 2009? If so, what is the strategy to do this? And, if so, what sort of player will they bring in that will be superior to José Guillén.

The M's made a colossal blunder in not extending José Guillén last off-season. What does this franchise intend to do to recify this mistake in 2009?

Maybe, just maybe, the José Guillén question will lead us to an answer that's better than hoping against all hope that young Balentien and DIaz become the solution next year.

The José Guillén question, even if nothing happens with him here, is doing this franchise a favor by begging the important question:

Where are the M's going, and how do they intend to get there?

If the M's try to rely on the same old same old in 2009, those 29,000 fans a game will begin to wither down to 10,000 a game. That will be a franchise in real trouble. For this alone, TJGS believes that the M's should do everything in its power to field a competitive team in 2009.

A commitment to winning must be demonstrated from the top, down. The M's need more fire and pop, like the kind we had from JG in '07.


THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY


Posted by HMJ

1:22 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Guillen is not the answer. They need to first accept the fact that they are no good and then go immediately to a complete youth movement. Because of the arrogance of Lincoln, Armstrong and Bavasi this team has one the worst teams and worst farm systems in baseball. We need to take a smaller market approach (Minnesota, Oakland) and move on. I've reached the point that I have absolutely no faith in the front office to make positive on field decisions. I guarantee that this team is at least 5 years away from contending. No matter what they say, winning is not a priorty. Only filling the seats on freebee nights. It's sad.

Posted by Washington State Patrol

1:48 PM, Aug 05, 2008

The lunatic ScottM has been cited again, alert all Troopers and make ready to apprehend members of The Jose Guillen Society. Transport all such prisoners to the State Mental Hospital.

Posted by BB44

2:05 PM, Aug 05, 2008

No more crap average players...PLEASE! $12M a year for Guillen? Take that $12M and add $4-$8M yr and get a proven star-superstar commodity. Guillen is just another average player just like Raul Ibanez. Aren't fans/media fed up with mediocrity? Jose Guillen is just that!

Posted by Sounders

2:09 PM, Aug 05, 2008

It won't make a lick of difference who we get until Howie and Chuckie and Maybe even Mr. Y are gone.

I haven't seen any evidence that the FO sees this problem and is inclined to get lost. Until they do, nothing will change.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

2:15 PM, Aug 05, 2008

The indecision, lack of visibility, and total lack of accountability now being demonstrated by the M's FO are classic symptoms of a group that will soon be in transition - meaning I think Yamauchi will be selling his majority ownership. Hopefully for M's fans, this is true and I just hope that whoever becomes the new majority owner (Chris Larson or whoever), that none of the current main players in the FO are retained. If need be, they can all be made to resign and reapply for their new positions (govt. agencies do this trick a lot to weed out deadwood) but unless the new majority owner likes incompetence and arrogance, none of these present clowns would have a chance of being retained.

Posted by BrianL

2:16 PM, Aug 05, 2008

I'm hearing on the radio that Brandon Morrow has been optioned to AAA Tacoma, RHP Jared Wells to take his place on the roster.

Any truth to this?

Posted by scottM

2:22 PM, Aug 05, 2008

brianL. It's on the official Mariner website. Stone and Baker get scooped.

Morrow to Tacoma. YES!

Posted by Washington State Attorney General's Office

2:27 PM, Aug 05, 2008

BrianL present your credentials to the Washington State Baseball Commission for review. We have reason to believe that you have obfuscated the facts on this blog. Failure to comply with this demand will result in the issuance of a warrant for your arrest on charges of saber flatulence.

Posted by BrianL

2:32 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Washington State Attorney General's Office - Sure, but you have to study up on this before I do anything:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem

Posted by Gordie

2:35 PM, Aug 05, 2008

"The farm system logic only works when you have a quality one in the first place (i.e. people that can judge talent and coach it up). Brandon Morrow drafted over Tim Lincecum - does this tell you anything? Nothing against Morrow mind you b/c he's been a great success so far but the organization was staring at a home grown talent with enough local hype that there is no way he could've been overlooked. But the organization didn't like his measurements - what?"

Is it possible they drafted Morrow over Lincecum out of fear? What happens if the local team drafts the local player and completely botches it?

Then again, if the M's had taken Lincecum, he'd be wasting away in the bullpen while Morrow would be the stud starter on another team. Because that's what Sodo Mojo is all about.

Gotta love these guys.

Posted by ????

2:42 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Thanks BrianL for the valuable information, it is much appreciated and I say this earnestly. Now I only ask that you study up a bit on humor, the post was laced with ironic humor given there is no Washington State Baseball Commission and the other concluding notion which may be true in your case.

Posted by BrianL

2:51 PM, Aug 05, 2008

???? - There's been so much noise on the blog lately it's hard to tell who's joking and who's just trolling.

Posted by Nick in pdx

3:34 PM, Aug 05, 2008

Hooray for recognizing the "value" of RBI as a predictive metric, and for recognizing that "entering solid decline phase of career" is more important than "has solid clubhouse presence". Best blog entry by Geoff yet.

Posted by faithful

7:15 AM, Aug 06, 2008

Bring Guillen back???? Puhleeze!!!!! We've had enouogh malcontents, overpriced medocrity, inept veterans. Bavasi, Woodward are gone--may there ilk never return!! Let's get a GM who knows baseball and isn't infatuated with age.

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