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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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August 2, 2008 7:20 PM

O's at M's: 8/2 game thread

Posted by Tom Wyrwich

8:46 p.m. So I just looked it up, and the M's are the only AL team without an 8-game winner. Even more interesting, there isn't another pitcher (other than Bedard) who isn't three wins away from that mark. So Hernandez might be the only 8-game winner this season. Seattle had four 8-game winners last year. Even Horacio Ramirez mustered eight wins a year ago.

8:35 p.m. That was Hernandez's 100th pitch that Aubrey Huff delivered into right field to load the bases with just one out. But nine pitches later, Hernandez emerged without allowing a run, though you've got to think that's it for him. Sean Green's warming up as I type. If the M's are going to emerge with their first 8-game winner of the season, they'll need to get a couple in the bottom of the inning.

8:14 p.m.: At least from up here, it looked like Ichiro made the right decision throwing to third, but it's still a bold move by O's 3rd-base coach Juan Samuel to send Melvin Mora with Ichiro running in on Ramon Hernandez's base hit. Mora scored, but Kevin Millar didn't make it to third because of Ichiro's throw, limiting the Orioles to just a run in the inning. 2-1 O's. Credit Beltre for scooping up Ichiro's throw to get Millar in the rundown.

7:57 p.m.: 3 innings, 67 pitches. That's 30 in the last two, so if Hernandez can keep that pace, he could get into the sixth or seventh. He's looking good though, with a few strikeouts. And he made a sharp play on a grounder back to him, getting the runner at second.

7:36 p.m.: The Mariners get that run back, tying it at 1, but they do leave a couple on base after a couple feeble outs from the Joses (Lopez and Vidro).

One thing to watch for: Jose Lopez has a 19-game hit streak. So far, 0-for-1.

Felix Hernandez hasn't made it past the sixth since June 17 -- John McLaren was still the manager -- and with the pace he's on so far, he probably won't make it into the seventh today. It took him XX pitches to get through the first, going deep into the count more often than not. Adam Jones worked him good until Jones slapped a hit to left, and Huff worked a good walk. Then Melvin Mora poked a double past Bryan LaHair to bring in a run. So far, Felix has already thrown 37 pitches.

Could be a long night.

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Posted by Batter Up!!!

7:41 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Surely we can beat the friggin' O's.

Posted by The Mariners FO.

7:44 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Psssst Howie, man were in trouble now, they are starting to figure out that this isn’t about baseball111

Posted by The Mariners FO.

7:51 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Ya Chuckie I know. Watch out for the Jose Guillen Society bunch They will tear your head off, especially that Walla Walla girl.

Posted by scottM

8:18 PM, Aug 02, 2008

To The Mariners F.O.:

You're assessment of a veiled threat is correct. Tell Howie and the All American Boy that the combo of Walla Walla Girl and Guillénforcer will only be appeased by the acquisition of one player. And don't think for a moment that a Society in honor of this player doesn't have a serious temperamental streak.

Guillénforcer, welcome to the José Guillén Society. [secret handshake exchange]. The executive board is duly impressed with your initial resolve and determination.

The José Guillén Society strongly suggests that Wag The Dog join that upbeat, forward-thinking José Vidro Society instead. His nattering nabobs of negativity not needed here. Get Guillén!!!!!


Posted by The Mariners FO.

8:32 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Howard, you know what to do-------FREE RALLY FRIES FOR THE GUILLE`N SOCIETY. That will hold them till we can think of something.

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

8:33 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Reminder to The Mariners FO. Walla Walla Girl is also the appointed Mariners VP of Winning. Better watch your back, boys.

Walla Walla Girl, Treasurer

Posted by scottM

8:37 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Private communique to fellow members of THE JOSÉ GUILLEN SOCIETY:

I can't be certain it's the same guy, but at the Kansas City Star's:

a blogger named Bongo has helped further our cause, by seconding the suggestion of Silva for Guillen!!!

If this Bongo is indeed the same, he/she may have a shot at membership in our esteemed Society.

Good job, Bongo, whoever you are.


Posted by ethan

8:39 PM, Aug 02, 2008

"first 8-game winner of the season.." lololol
Tom you'll probably be typing that well into september.

Posted by HelloHelloGuillen

8:41 PM, Aug 02, 2008

I used to be called ByeByeSexson, but I'm born again. It's so wonderful to have a positive mission in life, a faith in life after 2008. Please, esteemed SOCIETY members, is there anything I can do to help?


Posted by Caboodlerama

8:57 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Silva pack your bags!

Posted by The Mariners FO.

9:12 PM, Aug 02, 2008

We would like to remind all of you of all the wonderful things we do for you. We provide a great ballpark [at your expense} we over charge you for beer concessions and parking. We don’t allow anything tike bags to be worn on your head. {Purely a safety thing we assure you} And finally, we provide you with washed up over the hill players to root for. Frankly, we don’t understand what it is you are complaining about. Thank you and come again

Posted by headliner

9:17 PM, Aug 02, 2008

another one run game for the m's........another cy young opponent. amazing

Posted by scottM

9:18 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Good job in KC, Caboodlerama!!

The Mariners F.O.: "Frankie, we don’t understand what it is you are complaining about... "

Frankie is complaining about not having José Guillén. Geez, is this so hard for the FO to understand??

on behalf of,

Frankie, President

by/ sm, vp

Posted by Idiots

9:26 PM, Aug 02, 2008


Posted by The Mariners FO.

9:27 PM, Aug 02, 2008

We think you have misunderstood our position, we cannot bring Mr. Guillen back because he is still a good player and not washed up yet. How ever in the future we may take your suggestion under advisement.

Posted by scottM

9:30 PM, Aug 02, 2008

And Idiots are not allowed to be members of our SOCIETY. (Caboodlerama and that buffalo GEOFF is milking have a chance though).

Posted by Howard Lincoln

9:31 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Forget JOSÉ GUILLÉN, he is a nobody and you guys are idiots!

Posted by Dana

9:32 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Top of the 9th, Adam Jones has 3 hits and the Mariners have 4. Barfffffffff!

Posted by scottM

9:38 PM, Aug 02, 2008

O' ye of little faith: THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY shall not be denied:

Rescue GUILLÉN from the Royal boos!!!



Posted by Idiots

9:41 PM, Aug 02, 2008

THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SICIETY is proof that stupidity knows no bounds!

Posted by scottM

9:42 PM, Aug 02, 2008

You're not helping your cause for membership, Idiot.

Posted by Scanman

9:46 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Only Idiots would post without using spell check

Posted by CMH

9:47 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Thanks to Bavasi & the barf bags in the F.O. this team is toast for years to come. Can we just recognize that it's "Joker" Felix and stop insulting royalty? Can we just trade the whole team for a bag of rally fries? That's more than Lee Pekerdoodas has done for us so far.

Posted by Idiots

9:48 PM, Aug 02, 2008

JOSÉ GUILLÉN is a below average hitter without any redeeming qualities! Your society is stupid and ScottM is an Idiot!

Posted by Dignan

9:49 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Nicole Zaloumis is smokin' hot...

Posted by scottM

9:52 PM, Aug 02, 2008

2007, José Guillén with the M's:

.290 avg. 116 OPS+ 99 RBIs. Give me that below average play any day!!


Posted by The Mariners FO.

9:53 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Hey Howard , its working, The Society is fighting with Idiots. Speaking of which where is Lee and those fries? That boy is so slow!

Posted by Idiots

9:54 PM, Aug 02, 2008

ScottM - You and your JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY should move to Kansas City. Forget about it!

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:00 PM, Aug 02, 2008

2008 José Guillén with the Royals:

.259 avg. vs. League Average .268 = definition a below average hitter! Just another worthless veteran who would do nothing for this last place team, get over it! Stupid idiots that you are.

Posted by scottM

10:00 PM, Aug 02, 2008

K.C. Hallmark Card:

Dear José,

Hold on tight. We're trying to rescue you.

Seattle, WA

Posted by IDIOT

10:03 PM, Aug 02, 2008

K.C. Hallmark Card:

Dear José,

Hold on tight. We're trying to rescue you.

Seattle, WA

Posted by Idiot = FOO!

10:03 PM, Aug 02, 2008

José Guillén with the M's:

.290 avg. 116 OPS+ 99 RBIs.


Posted by The Jose Vidro Society

10:06 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong are posting here again. This time at least they've chosen an appropriate handle: Idiots

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:09 PM, Aug 02, 2008

In 2007, GUILLÉN had something very close to a career year. His numbers have only once been better than that in fifteen years. For the most part he is below average, it is stupid to think he will ever rebound to that level of play again. You are Bavasi like idiots to even think about this bum.

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

10:14 PM, Aug 02, 2008

The SOCIETY is building up steam. Stay focused on the task at hand. Good job, everyone! Keep up the good work.

A special welcome to HelloHelloGuillen. That's a grand new name. Byebye to ByeByeSexson. And ByeBye to Sexson too.

Thought for the day: Get Guillen!!! Or else ... ByeByeFO.

Walla Walla Girl, Treasurer

Posted by IDIOT

10:15 PM, Aug 02, 2008

The SOCIETY is building up steam. Stay focused on the task at hand. Good job, everyone! Keep up the good work.

A special welcome to HelloHelloGuillen. That's a grand new name. Byebye to ByeByeSexson. And ByeBye to Sexson too.

Thought for the day: Get Guillen!!! Or else ... ByeByeFO.

Walla Walla Girl, Treasurer

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

10:17 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Wow, an IDIOT has echoed my comments. Go figure.

Posted by bongo

10:18 PM, Aug 02, 2008

"You are Bavasi like idiots to even think about this bum." Not quite. The 'bavasi like idiot' did not resign him. His presence in the club house is missed big time. There is not one member of the M's organization that will tell you differently.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

10:19 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Another pitiful performance tonight that's not worth even commenting on. The Nationals have won two in a row which coincides with their releasing a few old non-performing high salary vets and going with young unknowns who at least play with energy & spirit. The M's should look to do the same with several of the geezers on this team, regardless of salary. We're now only 1 game behind the Nationals in the race for #1 (1st pick in 2009).

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:20 PM, Aug 02, 2008

In fifteen seasons, JOSÉ GUILLÉN has seldom played for a team more than one year. Playing for ten teams, he has thrice played for three years in a row for one team and no team has ever brought him back. He is nothing but an average hitter who is now beyond his prime. Forget about it you idiots.

Posted by M's Fan

10:22 PM, Aug 02, 2008

"...which coincides with their releasing a few old non-performing high salary vets and going with young unknowns who at least play with energy & spirit. The M's should look to do the same with several of the geezers on this team, regardless of salary." Imagine that! What a concept! On the other hand, if we do wat the 1st pick in '09....

Posted by Idiot = FOO!

10:26 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Go back and read some of the comments from both the FO and his teammates last season. They didn't resign him because they thought Adam Jones was going to be in RF and he wanted too much $$$. If they had it all to do over again, he would be here. No doubt about it.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:27 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Ancient Mariner geezers: Jose Vidro, Miguel Cairo, Miguel Batista, Kenji Johjima

Desired geezer: Jose Gullen

Becoming geezers: Jose Silva, Jarrod Washburn, Raul Ibanez

What might have been: Adam Jones = better numbers than Ibanez

Thanks Bill Bavasi!

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:31 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Afterthought geezer: Erik Bedard.

If Guillen had been resigned, we could further curse Bavasi for his idiotic love of veteran geezers.

Posted by The Jose Vidro Society

10:32 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Everyone seems to assume that with the top pick in the '09 draft the idiots/evil geniuses in the FO will pick the right guy. If history is any indication, the only thing you can assume is that they will screw it up. Somehow, someway. They always do. If the choice is obvious, expect them to do something insane. It's all part of their evil plan.

Posted by Idiotic Societies

10:36 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Two Stupid Societies:


The Jose Vidro Society

Both worshiping washed up veteran geezers - Grow up you idiots!

Posted by Sounders

10:37 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Howie: Chuck, the fans are getting mad again. What're we gonna do?
Chuckie: I know! Rally Tofu!

Posted by Esteban

10:39 PM, Aug 02, 2008

I remember how disappointed, even angry I was when the Bedard – ton of talent, both present and future trade went down. But a couple of months ago, it dawned on me that, for guys like Jones and Tillman, this is really the best. In all honesty, they’re just way too good for the M’s, at least with the team’s current management structure. And to that end, it’s really nice to see AJ playing so well. Not surprising, mind you, just extremely satisfying.

While my first hope is that the FO goes through some sort of transformation that results in them actually entering the 21st century when it comes to evaluating talent, player development, etc. I think we all know that the likelihood of such changes is similar to that of Vidro getting an infield hit. And so I can only pray that the team has no luck whatsoever getting anything done with Felix with regards to a long-term contract, and they trade him for an expensive vet or two with the requisite ‘grit’ to help build good ‘chemistry’ and ‘culture’. Maybe we could get Jose Guillen, whom some seem to be pining for, and his contract from KC. That would be just what the M’s deserve.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:41 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Well said Esteban!

Posted by TJGS

10:44 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Trade Felix Hernandez now for Jose Guillen and his salary! Do it now!


Posted by Martin

10:50 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Any takers on the Mariners getting swept this homestand. I have a great feeling about it. They sure have made the Baltimore starters look really good. My brother in law had free tickets to tonights game and I reluctantly went with him.

My complaints for tonights game in this order: 0,7,2,1,4,3,11,5,6,8.

Add to the list of complaints Carlos Silva's $12 mil a year #9. A lot of expensive material was wasted making his uniform, we're talking alot of material. I think he has gained about 30 pounds since he first donned the teal and blue. What a waist

Posted by Sounders

10:50 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Baghead Nation issues the following statement:

We have stood by and waited. Enough is enough. We are introducing a new campaign, to rename the team The Seattle GOOF. We will be appearing at games wearing t-shirts that say Go GOOF! This will continue until Howie and Chuckie are run out of town.

Submit to the indomitable will of Baghead nation and get lost!

Posted by wag the dog

10:52 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Yeah, I think tonight definitely demonstrates that a mediocre offense and strong pitching is the way to go. Leave the team as it is. Don't change a thing.

I'm sure Felix Hernandez loves having a 3.04 ERA and a .500 record to go with it. Some other team will pay him as much (or more) than the Mariners AND they'll surround him with a lineup that provides run support, a defense that gets off the field in three outs and bullpen that can finish what Felix starts.

Stand pat, Mariners. Don't change a thing.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:54 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Next thing you know, we'll have a Carlos Silva Society - there is nothing beyond fools and small children.

Posted by yardwork

11:02 PM, Aug 02, 2008

If we could muster 5 runs a game (avg) next year, this same pitching staff would bring us .500 record.

But, we are paying a heavy price for this less than mediocre hitting.

Posted by The Jose Vidro Society

11:04 PM, Aug 02, 2008

10:36 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Two Stupid Societies:


The Jose Vidro Society

Both worshiping washed up veteran geezers - Grow up you idiots!

Who's worshipping Jose Vidro? Have you even read the posts? Obviously sarcasm is completely lost on you! The only people worshipping Jose Vidro are the FO and Wiggleworm! Have you seen Geoff's new grey hair in the buffalo picture? This season has taken it's toll on everybody. At this point fans are looking for anything humorous because the truth is just too painful. Cut people some slack. Jeez!

Posted by Jeez

11:09 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Where the one is sarcastic, the other is romantic so where will the Carlos Silva Society fit into this silliness?

Will you nuts pine for the return of Bill Bavasi?

Posted by Sounders

11:10 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Seattle has become like Texas was, a place for free agents to rake in tens of mil without having to worry about winning, then after they have a pile of dough they go to a real baseball team.

Posted by The Mariners FO.

11:15 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Psssst Chuckie, I just figured out what we will do with our first pick in next year’s draft. Well draft a catcher; we can always use one of those, and then a bullpen guy after that. And, the high schools are just full of them. Why, come to think of it, every team has them. Nothing gets by us does it Chuckie my friend. Where the hell is Lee with those fries?

Posted by Jeez

11:25 PM, Aug 02, 2008

It is not necessarily bad drafts but bad trades. which have squandered M's talent. Beware of the Jose Guillen fetish, least we have another talent draining trade.

Posted by scottM

11:30 PM, Aug 02, 2008


How many people on this Blog say there aren't many Free Agent outfielders available? The M's, in an ideal world, will need two outfielders with good defense and solid bats in '09.

Reed is good defensively, but below average and powerlite at the plate. He is adequate in CF if Free Agency doesn't produce for the M's in the off-season.

José Guillen has a lifetime 101+ OPS and is a legitimate 100 RBI player with decent power.

Ibanez may not sign an extension with the M's. How many people complain about Raul's range and don't want him in LF if he re-signs? Most.

Adam Jones is gone for good. Get over it.

Over and over we hear how other teams won't give player value for our existing players. All we might get for our most tradable players is to dump their salaries. The M's don't NEED to dump more salary with Vidro's and Sexson's $23million off the books in '09. That is unless the F.O. makes a conscious decision to field an uncompetitive team in 2009. The HUGE risk with this is that the M's will erode its most valuable commodity––a loyal fan base that pays the salaries of these players. There is a time lag in losing a fan base, but if ticket buyers believe that the F.O. is not trying in '09, then watch what happens when only 10,000 fans start going to games. If this happens, this organization won't have the revenues to play the F.A. game in the future. This season risks a downward spiral that will be tough to turn upward again. There is worse than a time lag in turning a franchise around--the risk that it never happens and a town turns its back on the team.

Those who say blow it up, don't have much plan-of-action for building the team back up. A new GM coming on board in December will not ride in and magically save the day in '09.

Getting Guillén back will likely undo one big mistake the M's made last off-season. Rebuilding a blown up team where we get no player value for our players we get rid of, makes NO sense. Acquiring José Guillén is one viable step toward making the M's competitive in 2009.

Balentien stunk when he came up this season at the plate and was barely adequate defensively in RF. He is most likely not part of any solution in '09.

The fans in KC hate Guillén and boo him more harshly than Seattle fans booed Sexson.

Seattle is one of the few places where José Guillen was, undeniably, a positive influence in the clubhouse. He lit a fire under his fellow low key teammates. There IS such a thing as team chemistry.

If José Guillén provides the same kind of catalyst for the '09 offense that he did for the '07 team, he will be well worth every penny we pay him. He will play better here because he is liked here.

Acquiring Guillén from the KC Royals has a very good chance of being a win-win trade for both clubs.

With opportunities for players of this caliber scarce, let's hope the M's F.O. negotiates with the KC F.O. and makes a run for Guillén.

Offer KC a salary dump (or Silva).



Posted by The Jose Vidro Society

11:35 PM, Aug 02, 2008


The Jose Vidro Society has just been disbanded permanently.

Are you happy now?

Maybe now this will free you up to stop picking apart everyone else's posts and come up with something worthwhile of your own for us to examine?


Posted by Stupidity rules and ScottM has a claim on it

11:40 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Give Kansas City Felix in exchange for Jose Guillen such a deal is consistent with M's history when favoring washed up veterans like JG.

Guillen for saviour society!

Posted by Jeez Louise

11:45 PM, Aug 02, 2008

Good riddance to Vidro and his society!

Now talk some sense into the Guillen for Saviour Society!

Posted by Guillenforcer

12:00 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Can't we all just get along?!?

sergant at arms

Posted by Jeez Louise

12:01 AM, Aug 03, 2008

There is no competitiveness in this team for '09, the real issue at hand is undoing Bavasi's mess. Now that the team has missed its chance to rid itself of Washburn and move on beyond Ibanez, there remains the mindset that to stick with those who brought you. Well those who brought you have given you an overpriced last place finish. An addition of Jose Guillen will not improve this mess, which might have been improved by subtraction in the case of Washburn and Ibanez, but that window has passed.

There remains, however, the need to subtract a substantial number of Bavasi bums from this team before bringing back another one. There is still Washburn to dump and what to do with Silva, Bedard, Vidro, Cairo, and Beltre? No addition will make these bums productive and dependable players, there salary is a waste and the addition of a bum like Guillen is hopeless romanticism.

The M's are reduced to an expansion-like team and they need to improve gradually with the development of home grown talent, but first they need to get rid of the overpriced, non-performing bums. Dump 'em and avoid more of their ilk - e.g. Jose Guillen.

Jose Guillen is no saviour!

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

12:06 AM, Aug 03, 2008

THE JOSÉ GUILLÉN SOCIETY is an invitation to stupidity which apparently alive and well in Seattle despite the departure of Bill Bavasi. Get a life you idiots!

Posted by GripS

12:46 AM, Aug 03, 2008


No sh!t man, I had free tix for the game tomorrow and gave em away. Silva is starting. Likely to be swept tomorrow.

I found it quite odd to see Chuck on the screen tonight all smiles. Dumbass......thanks for the super suck team you are backing this year.

Honestly....WTF Felix. That outing was horrible. We have NO ace starter. Felix used to be the ace in my book but after tonight he just got demoted. Try going 7 or 8 innings for once.

Posted by Merrill

12:52 AM, Aug 03, 2008

ScottM, LOVED your "Gonzo Blogger" post. Fantastic!

I've missed interacting with you all (ok, with "you some"), but I've been lurking and reading posts when I have time.

Spent a couple of months working 7-day weeks with no time to read posts.

Also got disgusted by pervasive negativity. Frankly, discouraged, too. Not that anyone cares.

Anyway, sCOTTm, Walla Walla Girl, and Frankie-of-the-Ledge: Except for his general rudeness, I have to agree with that idiot's contention: I'd rather not see another member of the Over-the-Hill-Gang return for a reprise.

BrianL kept mentioning Wlad as being one of the underperformers in RF, but a 2-week cup of coffee (if my memory is accurate--a premise I, for one, tend to question...) doesn't qualify. I'd rather see him up ASAP (as in, two months ago) as the everyday LF, with Raul at DH.

To heck with Raul's "feelings." Love him and everything, and I think some of you will recall my tendency to put a lot of weight on ballplayers' feelings (see "platooning," below), but hey... it's about time he faced facts and started to learn to deal with it like Edgar did. I think his plate production will rise, if not dramatically, when he's not killing his legs out there flailing around in LF.

And what about Diaz? I know the word is Balentien isn't the best answer defensively in CF, and I like Reed a lot--I think the more playing time he gets, the better his hitting will get--but What About Victor??? If he can provide above-average defense in LF, perhaps we could live with below-average D in CF, even though it's a premium D position.

Speaking of flailing around, and "if"s, I've been trying to find some scouting reports on those guys (Balentien and Diaz--Diaz in particular) to check out what folks think of them, but haven't been successful. Any suggestions? Diaz sure ain't on any lists...

Anyway, my thoughts on that are that perhaps Diaz-Balentien in LF-CF makes sense in terms of the power vs. defense balance. Since we're sacrificing power in RF, perhaps adequate rather than outstanding defense (if it exists with those guys) is acceptable--as we already know it is in LF--with Reed as fourth OF/defensive replacement.

On a concurrent track, I get the sense that the reason for Ichiro's sudden resurgence in extra-base hits is that he's getting his legs back after his extended stint giving it up for the team (yes, Mr. X, and Resin, that's the way I see it) playing CF. I believe both offensively and defensively, he best serves the team in RF.

I also don't believe in platoons. BrianL, you avoided Resin's comments on the subject, which, for a change, were reasonable (however, except for the splits thing, I agree with much of your other observations in that lengthy post a few threads back).

In this case, I agree with Resin: Most splits come from ABs against both lefties and righties, and the numbers are likely to go down when they don't see live pitching nearly every day for more than one or two ABs. This contention is borne out by MLB plyer testimony as well as the four-year study cited and linked to by--?--Chris from Bothell??(sorry!).

Yet another example of a Measurable Unmeasurable.

However, in LaHair's case, that might not be such a bad thing, since, as someone mentioned, he's "protected" by a righty-heavy lineup that should see a lot of righties. It can't hurt him to sit once every 5 days or so, or perhaps be pulled for a pinch-hitter (Vidro, anyone?) late in games. The question is, who's got a decent bat against lefties that can play 1B?

It's not a rhetorical question; I really don't recall who you guys were suggesting.

I think most people here agree that we'd like to see Balentien every day; that Batista should be moved to relief, salary be damned, and Dickey and RRS slotted; and that, um, hello?, there might be some deadwood...

...just maybe... that needs clearing.

On the Woods/RRS/NoTrade front, it doesn't make sense to bring up RRS unless he's replacing Wash as the Resident Medocre Lefty Starter (ace lefty having absconded due to traveling pangs).

This seems to indicate Dickey's staying in the rotation, which I applaud, although perhaps he could be better suited to the McLaren-defined, never-used--like so much of McLaren's declarations--role of Rubber-Armed Long Reliever/Spot Starter; time will tell.

On The Trade front: I think the aforementioned back/travel pang situation with Our Resident Ace effectively rules out 2 of the 3 conditions posited at the beginning of the year for The Trade to be considered successful: Playoffs in '08 or an excellent-performing Bay-Dar re-signing--not resigning--after 2009. That leaves Playoffs in '09 as the only possible way for the trade to be considered a success.

I agree with ScottM that this isn't as much of a pipe dream as most think it is. Unlikely, though, as it would require some young players to perform well before they are historically likely to when given the opportunity to play every day.

Boy, was I ever DEAD WRONG. Who says there's no cryin' in baseball??? (I don't mean because I was wrong, sillies.)

Posted by WTF Grips

12:52 AM, Aug 03, 2008


You can say WTF Felix and maybe hasten his departure which is inevitable given this bunch of losers. Maybe the Jose Guillen Society can convince Lee, Chuck and Howie to trade him for their hero and then count value in return. Those pathetic losers dream of a return to competition next year, it must be nice to live in a fantasy world free of any semblance of reality.

Posted by The respective fanclubs of Scott Spezio, Bret Boone, Bobby Ayala and Richie Sexson

12:59 AM, Aug 03, 2008

There might be something to this idea of a "Jose Guillen Society" after all. While it may be true that some think he's a "below-average slugger", maybe he's less below-average than the rest of the Mariners. (Er, "Goof") I can sense a real movement is well on it's way to upgrade the M's mediocrity. Unless, 'upgrading mediocrity' would mean to make the mediocrity worse. It's really hard to tell these days.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

1:02 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Jose Guillen defines mediocrity!

Posted by pbk13

2:13 AM, Aug 03, 2008

You suck mariners, and the fans that wanted that stupid stupid bedard trade. Adam Jones rocks! But now we had to play Vidro last year because he was so great. And Jones sat on the bench, and then we gave him away. Gaaave him away. Baker, and the fans who were behind that trade: I have only one word for you, and I can't say it here. But i know who you are, and you know you suck. Big Time.

Posted by Merrill

3:04 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Intelligent commentary, pbk13. Thanks for your observations.

I'd support the trade again, given what I knew then. That's called integrity (look it up). At the time, at least I had the--yep--integrity to admit I could be wrong.

Here's another vocabulary word for you: arrogance.

I bet I'm taller than you. Nyah, nyah! My Dad can kick your Dad's ass! Nyah, nyah!

Posted by Chuck A.

5:25 AM, Aug 03, 2008

If you idiot fans and bloggers think we are going to make any real changes, think again. We just had an announced attendance of over 30k and that is against a no-name Orioles. Things are fine from my perspective.

Posted by rob

6:40 AM, Aug 03, 2008

No, you can't beat the Orioles. Their days of being the dormat in the AL East are numbered. The orioles unloaded all of their high paid dead wood and are playing 500 ball in the tough AL east with palyers no one ever heard of. The best thing they did was got rid of that wierdo Bedard. There were no tears shed hear when the trade was announced. We got 4 young guys and Sherrill. Jones is batting .279 with 7 home runs and 50 rbi's. Not earthshattering, but hey, he is 23 and his first full year. Where do you think he'll be in 5 years? Sherrill was the Orioles lone All Star and all he has done is post 30 saves. The other guys are tearing it up in the minor leagues. Then there is Bedard, injured, no surprise there! So no, you can't even beat the Orioles, they'll propbably sweep today. Do they stillplay 500 and are in last place, sure, but the difference is that the Orioles are heading up in the future with a payroll that is half of the Mariners 100 million.

Posted by scottM

7:17 AM, Aug 03, 2008


Thanks for the compliment and intelligent post. Good to see you posting again. I think the crux of the matter is how the M's go about revamping the team. Trying to win in '09 while ALSO rebuilding for the years beyond is the goal behind bringing in Guillen.

1) If we can't get player value in '08 for Washburn, Bedard, Beltre, Ibanez, Silva, Batista, then make the most of what you have with them in '09 while reloading with the best prospects you can acquire/develop.
2) Had Balentien shown more promise in the field and at the plate in '08, the Guillén option wouldn't be necessary. Unlike Clement and LaHair, Wlad flails at the plate and looks clueless against major league pressure. La Hair and Clement have MUCH better at-bat presence.
3) There appear not to be realistic FA options superior to Guillen who is becoming a problem child in KC. He fits here.
4) If Guillen comes in and helps make the M's competitive in '09, the job of the new GM becomes that much easier. He/she will have more time to re-load with youth, if the M's are winning. Let's segué toward a brighter future.
5) Make the most of '09 with Bedard, Beltre, Washburn, Yuni, Lopez, Felix, JJPutz and a known commodity (Guillén) than making next season an extended try-out for our youth. Aug and Sept of 2008 should be the time for the M's youth try-out (keep it up, LaHair). Bring up Diaz and Balentien NOW, and let them PROVE the JOSÉ GUILLEN SOCIETY wrong on this.
6) Know what you have and don't have. Unless we dump them for money reasons, we will have the players named above for 2009. We won't be able to acquire all the Free Agents or blue chip prospects that this team will need overnight. Deal with what is realistic for '09.
7) Don't lose your fan base while rebuilding.
8) Guillén is a much more likely success on the M's in '09 and 2010 than Diaz or Balentien.
9) Put it on these core players that we are realistically stuck with, to show the world what they are made of. Are they the gutsy team of '07, or the losers of '08? Bringing back Guillén in '09 and 2010 will allow them a chance to redeem themselves.
10) 2007 was a great ride until our bullpen faded. GIve 2009 a shot.


Posted by agular

8:09 AM, Aug 03, 2008


Posted by Chris from Bothell

8:14 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Time to add "9. We want Jose Guillen back" to the Mariner Bloggers Shorthand list I proposed in a comment on this post. And perhaps a 10. "Where the hell is Geoff?". ;)

For my part today: 0. 1. 6. And now, 9.

Posted by rob

8:22 AM, Aug 03, 2008

What is this obsession with Guillen. He is just an average player. You have to think bigger!

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

8:24 AM, Aug 03, 2008

TJGS are idiots:

You and your Guillen Saviour Society will be wearing egg on your face when your hero comes over and hits .231 with 20 rbi over the season. There is no quick fix that will keep the M's in contention while rebuilding, you are living in a fantasy world.

Like so many others, you seem to have overvalued this team based on the fluke of 2007 when it clearly overachieved. If you look at the difference with that team, you will see that their are numerous performance failures this year, which relate to the overpriced underachievers that remain on the roster. Currently a .259 hitter, Guillen is in decline after fifteen years and he has no where to go but down.

To play at the '07 level, the '09 team needs improvement at catcher, 1B, SS, 3B, LF, CF and DH. It also needs additional starters to replace the losers that BB brought in, namely Bedard, Batista, Washburn and Silva. Your Saviour Guillen is not going to fill all of these holes or even make this miserable team competitive.

There was a good article in the PI the other day which showed by the numbers that had the M's kept their homegrown talent, they would be competitive for a wild card. And yesterday, the TNT argued that the Minnesota Twins model developing homegrown talent is one to follow when building and maintaining a competitive team. Today a poster at 6:40 AM, Rob makes much the same point about Baltimore's approach and he puts your pathetic argument for likes of Guillen to shame.

Seattle does not need another aging veteran in the twilight of his career, the M's need to dump the likes of Bedard, Washburn, Batista, Silva, Johjima, Vidro and Cairo by any means possible. If Ibanez is to be retained then let him DH, dump all this deadwood and move on, so as to make room for player development. Let the young guys play, see what they can deliver and get on with developing a talent base that will have a future.

Forget about your Saviour, he has no future in Seattle and the M's have no future with the likes of him. This team needs to audition and develop its young talent. Time to move on and make way for a bold new world derived from homegrown talent.

Posted by Swami of Pastrami

8:28 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Mediocre? Methinks not!

This team has been in desperate need of some fire and leadership in the clubhouse. The records of '07 with Guillen and '08 without speak for themselves. Bring him back, and dump Silva's ridiculous salary in the process.

Posted by Idiotic Fools

8:31 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Methinks you stupid - Swami of Pastrami.

Posted by Pastrami on rye

8:34 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Maybe you will make a good sandwich on rye, you have no other use.

Posted by scottM

8:34 AM, Aug 03, 2008

from Idiot: "The M's need to dump the likes of Bedard, Washburn, Batista, Silva, Johjima, Vidro and Cairo by any means possible. If Ibanez is to be retained then let him DH, dump all this deadwood and move on"

Vidro will be gone soon enough

I agree with how we keep Ibanez

Bedard is a very good pitcher when healthy. It's idiotic to dump him with no return. I mean REALLY stupid.

If Washburn will play the way he does when showcasing himself, he can be a true asset to this team in 2009.

Batista and Silva we are stuck with

Johjima is an unfortunate extension caused by Japanese ownership interference.

Beltre is here.

Get real.

Posted by bongo

8:38 AM, Aug 03, 2008

"This team needs to audition and develop its young talent. Time to move on and make way for a bold new world derived from homegrown talent." Oh, you mean the guys like Johnson, Diaz, Balentine and Tui that are rotting away in Tacoma while Vidro and Cairo are still getting PT? Wake me up when that happens. I definitely don't want to hear the excuse next spring about not knowing if these guys can play in the big leagues or not.

Posted by Swami of Pastrami

8:41 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Idiotic Fool(s) your name says it all....
See you at Jose's welcoming party.

Posted by save a cow

8:44 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Even if the M's have to pay the final year of Silva's bloated contract $12m), a swap of Silva for Guillen would be well worth it. The food savings from the post-game spread would come close to making up the $ difference. Also, the morale of other players in the clubhouse would be vastly improved as more food would be available for those who presently have to follow Silva in the buffet line.

Posted by Idiotic Fools you are

8:52 AM, Aug 03, 2008

At the present, the M's are going nowhere, yet aged veterans like Vidro, Cairo, Ibanez, Johjima,Batista, Silva, Washburn are blocking player development when it is desperately needed. Bedard is damaged goods, his hip is a disaster that has put strain on his shoulder and he will never the the pitcher he was before his original injury in Baltimore. Stealing much exceptional talent, the O's pulled a Clay Bennett and Seattle took it in the rear.

It is the perfect time to audition and develop youthful talent, so make the Washburn dump and bring on Feirerabend, dfa Vidro, Cairo and Johjima, bring on the likes of Balentien, Diaz, Redman and Hulett. Move Raul to DH, enough of this miserable play in the field.

Realism involves acknowledging reality, Jose Guillen is on the downside and he alone will make no difference, except to prolong the agony and put off that which really must be done. Rebuilding with homegrown youthful talent is the only course of action that will sustain the M's in the long term. Use the payroll money to find and develop talent, it will yield far better rewards.

Lose the fantasy.

Posted by byebye

8:57 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Posted by HelloHelloGuillen

8:41 PM, Aug 02, 2008

I used to be called ByeByeSexson, but I'm born again. It's so wonderful to have a positive mission in life, a faith in life after 2008. Please, esteemed SOCIETY members, is there anything I can do to help?


Well ByeByeSexson I don't remember anyone posting under that name. I posted under byebyeSexson. So carry on with your fantasy. It's a fantasy season.

byebye (new name)

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

9:01 AM, Aug 03, 2008

End the Guillen fantasy you idiotic fools.

Posted by nonoguillen

9:03 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Just say no to Jose Guillen!

Posted by WelcomeBackJose!!

9:09 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Make it Happen!!!!

Posted by oldiecoach

9:11 AM, Aug 03, 2008

KING Felix???? You gotta be kinding. I'm tired of hearing/reading that we shouldn't expect the best from him. He's young....but, baseball wise....he's been a pro for at least 7 yrs. I see a little Freddie Garcia in him.

Posted by nonoguillen

9:12 AM, Aug 03, 2008

o they not have a cancer treatment center in Seattle, thanks in large part to the selfless efforts of Jamie Moyer? Put them on notice if you guys are serious in bringing back Jose Guillen.

Posted by Guillen get lost

9:15 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Dump the Guillen fantasy, its for fools and small children.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

9:17 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Why would Kansas City want Silva? Wake up you idiots!

Posted by byebyeSilva

9:18 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Hello Jose!!!!!!!

Posted by nonoguillen

9:21 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Do you really think KC is so stupid as to take Silva for Guillen? If so then David Stern and his henchman Clay Bennett have a deal for you.

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

9:23 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Better to give up Felix for Jose, then you fools will get all that you deserve.

Posted by bongo

9:26 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Posted by Beam me up Scotty

9:27 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Headlines at the welcome back Jose reception:

Seattle Mariners acquire Jose Guillen, laughing stock of the league.

Posted by Idiotic Fools you are

9:30 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Wake up and stop sucking on that bongo hole, today it is August 3, 2008 not, I repeat, not December 2007. At the rate, Carlos Silva keeps expanding they will soon have to wheel him out to the mound, he has proven KC lucky they did not get their wish last winter. Stupid to supply such a dated rebuttal.

Posted by bongo

9:36 AM, Aug 03, 2008

"At the rate, Carlos Silva keeps expanding they will soon have to wheel him out to the mound," And you suggest we hang on to him and continue paying him $44 mil? cut him and pay him $44 mil? I can see where you get your name...

Posted by dongo

9:43 AM, Aug 03, 2008

No choice, no one will take the bovine after this season - KC surely will not want now. Another sunk cost made by BB who must have been bongo at the time.

You fantasy is certifiable - get off the bong loser.

Posted by Chuck

9:43 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Only a game behind Washington for the #1 draft pick. Keep on doin what you're doin, M's!

Posted by bongo

9:47 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Great comeback!!!! BTW anytime you want to post your recent link with info that KC would not be interested in a trade, feel free. Until then we can go back to the 3rd grade name calling...

Posted by 09 draft

9:49 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Keep your eyes on the prize - number 1 draft - but do it with some dignity, play the young guys and develop some future in Seattle.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

9:50 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Bonehead Bill obviously didn't put a weight clause in Silva's contract - maybe a contract addendum can be added with that clause offering an additional $ incentive if he meets weight conditions. Shouldn't have to do this for a guy making that much money but $12 million/year can buy a lot of good food. Lopez has a weight clause in his contract and we see the good discipline he's been showing at the plate - home plate that is.

Posted by dongo

9:56 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Why would anyone waste an article on Silva? Do you really think our unacceptable underachiever and bovine will be coveted by KC? You need to wake up, get off the bong and face reality. Silva is a sunk cost, as is Johjima, Bedard, Washburn, Vidro and Batista. Your proposal is the stuff of a third grade mentality, nonsense that only fools and small children can embrace.

Lose the bong and wake up.

Posted by Scanman

10:00 AM, Aug 03, 2008

I’ve been reading this blog for a while, put my 2 cents worth in here and there, and it’s been a lot of fun to talk baseball and share ideas with every one. But, it all boils down to this; The Mariners are in this for the entertainment value only. They are not concerned with wining, never have been. Look at all their “fan experience” references. I have said it many times before, until people stop going to games, nothing will change. And unfortunately for most of us on this blog, the area has way too many people who just enjoy going to the ballpark and don’t care about the outcome.

Posted by bongo

10:04 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Sure your name's not Bill?
More name calling, what a surprise!

Posted by stupidity is stupidity bongo dongo

10:07 AM, Aug 03, 2008

bongo dongo, nonsense is nonsense and you are full of it, billy boy must have been using your bong.

Posted by bongo

10:10 AM, Aug 03, 2008

...another great comeback. At least it worked in 3rd (or was it 2nd?) grade. Grow up! and C-YA after you nap time.

Posted by wag the dog

10:15 AM, Aug 03, 2008

"1) If we can't get player value in '08 for Washburn, Bedard, Beltre, Ibanez, Silva, Batista, then make the most of what you have with them in '09 while reloading with the best prospects you can acquire/develop."

I agree with this, to a point. There's nothing wrong with holding out for value - failure to hold out for value is part of what got the Mariners into this mess in the first place. I can't remember the last Mariner trade in which the Mariners, after ample sample time, were the clear winners (or even came out even).

But you also have to be realistic about how valuable your chips are. In the case of the Mariners, there isn't a lot of value to offer. Washburn isn't going to bring a top tier prospect. Neither will Silva nor Batista. In the cases of Silva and Batista, the Mariners would do well just to find another team willing to assume salary. Washburn might be worth a little more, but as he demonstrated the other night, he tends to pitch well when he stands to benefit (ie, a possible trade to a contending team or a contract year), but absent a carrot of some kind, he's mediocre. Not a lot of value in that. We can hold out hope that a stupid, overeager GM will overwhelm us with a trade proposal, but in the end, when you put lipstick on a pig, you've still got a pig.

Beltre and Ibanez, imo, should have some value. Particularly Beltre. Holding out in their cases makes sense. Their presence doesn't hurt us (except for the need to turn Ibanez into a full time DH) on the field or in the pocketbook. Waiting on value is prudent.

Bedard seems the wild card. The Mariners bought too high and almost certainly can't get equivalent value. The question is, how low will they be forced to go? Right now, injured, Bedard is untradeable. We're really holding out hope that he can rehab and then pitch well enough to justify some sort of reasonably attractive deal in the offseason or at the next trade deadline. But it's a risky wait and see because if he continues to be injury prone and/or continues to prove himself to be an aloof clubhouse presence, his value will be minimal.

Posted by C-YA in the clouds smoke boy

10:16 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Go suck your bong, you've got nothing else to offer, maybe then you can come up with another outrageous idea for a trade. Life in fantasy world is so kind until you wake up to reality and someone calls you on the inherent stupidity of your thinking or lack there of. Good luck with your nap.

Posted by bongo

10:25 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Byebye. Hope your mom will let you come to the Welcome Back Guillen party. Until then....

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

10:32 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Washburn, Batista, Silva, Bedard, Johjima, Vidro, Cairo, Beltre, Ibanez are the M's chips, but no GM in baseball is buying this bunch. Beltre and Ibanez are no harm, except Ibanez needs to be moved to DH. The rest are nothing but sunk costs interfering with player development and inhibiting any hope of winning anytime soon. Forget about them and move them any way possible - such stupidity in hanging onto Washburn when there was a suitor for his services. Likewise Ibanez is in the way, silly to have not pulled the trigger on a trade. Those who brought you have brought you to last place in the league, there is no reason to assume that they can win while rebuilding. Get a grip and forget about Guillen.

Posted by dongo bongo

10:35 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Party, party thats all you understand, get off the bong and maybe you can get a life.

Posted by Deepthroat

10:38 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Hard to have 8 wins when your team routinely scores just one run a game don't ya think? Not too many 0-1 wins to be had by ANY pitcher..

Posted by la verdad

11:04 AM, Aug 03, 2008

El partido de José será enorme!

Posted by Ragarm

11:11 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Coming up in the next thread, a song that will lift all our spirits and make winners of the M's. Look for it. Wait for it. Be enthused for it!

I mean, if Geoff actually gets another post up today!

Posted by ninguna verdad para Jose

11:15 AM, Aug 03, 2008

¡No habrá partido para Jose, él es un perdedor!

Posted by TJGS are Idiots

11:22 AM, Aug 03, 2008

No matter what language you use, the Jose Guillen Society are idiots!

Posted by la verdad

11:28 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Bienvenido de vuelta a Seattle, Jose!
Adiós Carlos, buena suerte en Kansas City!

Posted by TJGS es idiotas

11:31 AM, Aug 03, 2008

¡La estupidez no es la verdad, se olvida Jose Guillen!

Posted by la verdad

11:47 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Jose Guillen Sociedad: Hoy, Seattle. Mañana, el universo!

Posted by ninguna verdad para Jose

11:55 AM, Aug 03, 2008

Las tonterías totales absolutas, Jose no es salvador y KC no desean el Silva bovina, consigue un puño en usted mismo y en la realidad de la cara.

Posted by ken

12:00 PM, Aug 03, 2008

Seeing these posts, I think everyone has moved to a point beyond frustration. Even Geoff has escaped to the wilds in order to regain some sanity after watching too much bad baseball. Am glad to see NYY & Rasner getting their lunch handed to them again by the Angels - if Washburn is run through waivers now, I still think NYY will claim him and the M's may as well let him go for the $10m salary savings next season. That will give the M's at least $30m in salary savings from Sexson, Vidro, & Wash for them to pocket to start a rebuild.

Posted by Bork

12:58 PM, Aug 03, 2008

This season has gotten to the point where it's pretty much comical. We started out the season with so much hope and expectation, pouring $117 million into this team, and this is what's happened. We're 25+ games out of first, a position we're supposed to be in a tight race for. We have the worst or second-worst record in the MLB. None of our pitchers have won eight games. Is anybody hitting over .300? Does anybody have more than 10 homeruns?

Watching them play is starting to feel pointless, because even if they do manage to pull off a win, it no longer matters. I feel really sorry for the starting pitchers who have actually been doing a really nice job, save a few games, and have been getting absolutely no run support whatsoever.

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