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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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July 13, 2008 1:46 PM

M's avoid sweep

Posted by Geoff Baker

ryals0713 013.jpg

Brandon Morrow got back in the saddle and notched a save, retiring last night's home run hero, David DeJesus, on a flyball to left to end a 4-3 win over the Kansas City Royals.

Sean Green gets the win, largely because of that boneheaded play by Royals shortstop Mike Aviles on that rundown between third and home. The Royals had Adrian Beltre dead-to-rights in a rundown. But a high throw went over the third baseman'shead. Aviles, backing the play up, made a great basehanded stab of the ball. But instead of throwing home to get Beltre, he for some reason tried to throw to second in a futile attempt to nab Willie Bloomquist.

The M's will take it.

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Posted by Dana

1:58 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"But instead of throwing home to get Beltre, he for some reason tried to throw to second in a futile attempt to nab Willie Bloomquist."

It would appear that bad baseball is contagious.

Posted by Maui Mariner

2:00 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Well a win is a win and we're not giving it back because it was borderline.
Great way for Brandon to get going again.
Hopefully a little rest will be good for all them old tired bones and we can see some well played baseball in the second half..............................well at least I can hope!

Posted by scottM

2:07 PM, Jul 13, 2008

We read the newspapers. Carlos Silva has only had one win since late April. Well, today he did his job just fine. He's leading 3-2 when he leaves the game. Sean Green gives up the game tying RBI, then notches the win when the M's score in the bottom half of his inning. Good job Sean; history will prove that you were the winner today. Give Carlos the run support he deserves, and I don't expect him the be the free-agent bust that so many suggest. He's a gamer with a great attitude and serviceable skills.

Posted by Mr. X

2:08 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Still waiting Faceplant. Or are you waiting for you USSM talking points before responding?

Fix your lie.

Posted by Mr. X

2:09 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Your USSM talking points, that is.

Posted by Esteban

2:16 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Reposted from previous thread:

Hey, Mr. X, after you get done ‘owning’ Faceplant as it were, I seem to recall in a thread a couple of months back where you were predicting the Adam Jones would soon be sent down to the O’s AAA affiliate. Just curious, did that ever materialize? If it did, it seems to have worked wonders, as he’s improved his numbers across the board. ‘Newfieldian’, huh? You crack me up.

BTW, if MacPhail and the O’s keep getting ‘fleeced’ like they were by us, they might just make the post-season pretty soon.

Posted by RustyJohn

2:18 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Did I actually hear correctly that Riggleman says he doesn't expect the line-up/roster to change and they weren't going to make trades "just to make trades"? I'm all for not making bad trades, but if Riggleman and the FO don't realize the need to get rid of 3 or 4 guys and try to rebuild this team, then the lead paint theory holds true.

Posted by Mr. X

2:22 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Esteban, making a prediction isn't the same as posting lies, and trying to pass them off as facts, thinking that nobody will know better or look up the numbers.

If Jones had been with this team, he would have been sent down to AAA. And oh by the way, Jones is a decent player. Good for him.

Posted by Esteban

2:32 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Mr. X said: “If Jones had been with this team, he would have been sent down to AAA.”

Probably true. The ironic thing is that that speaks volumes with regards to one of the many flaws of this organization.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

2:40 PM, Jul 13, 2008

A solid win and a good time for a break of a few days - for both the team and the fans. I hope the CBS rumors of Randy Smith being given strong consideration for GM are wrong. The last thing we need is another recycled GM who failed in his last spot - sounds like the second coming of Bonehead Bill. We need to just hope that Armstrong and Lincoln are replaced before the team makes a decision on a permanent GM so that we can get some fresh blood into the FO rather than old dogs cut from the same cloth.

Posted by downonstrikes

2:43 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Hey RustyJohn, you heard right. Riggleman seems to believe everything is good and right in Marinerdom. No need to trade or do anymore tinkering with the lineup. We will come back to the same old losers after the break. Ha, they will be well rested at least. It really is time to build allegiance with another team. This is much to painful and sad.

Posted by doug

2:46 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Mr X. go ahead and own the shit out of faceplant already, im bored!

Posted by Lenny Randle's Breath

3:05 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"It would really be interesting to see what we could do if we have the whole group," Riggleman said. "It's been that way since April, and I don't think we really know what we have this year until we get it all out here. You hate to abandon it too quickly."

This quote was from the M's website.

Interesting for somebody that was blind and then could suddenly see. But for the rest of us? We've seen it. It's dog crap.

Posted by Faceplant

3:20 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"Still waiting Faceplant. Or are you waiting for you USSM talking points before responding?"

I was actually out running errands, as I actually have a life.

"Fix your lie."

You mean, fix my mistake, that you would like to pretend is a lie because it lets you score "blog man points" or some other idiotic thing like that. I know you like to pretend your the big tough man, but I don't buy it for a second.

By the way, I already said you were right about Ichiro not having as many XBH as Lopez in 2006. But you also failed to take into account the 45 stolen bases Ichiro swiped that year, meaning he actually reached second base on his own more often than Mr. middle of the order.


"If Jones had been with this team, he would have been sent down to AAA. And oh by the way, Jones is a decent player. Good for him."


A decent player that you were pretty much completely wrong about. Of course you won't admit it.

Posted by Faceplant

3:25 PM, Jul 13, 2008

By the way, that was some ownage Mr. X. You really got me there!

Now why don't you respond to the rest of the points I made.

Posted by doug

3:48 PM, Jul 13, 2008

bitch, you lied about ichiro vs lopez. lopez actually was a more productive hitter that year ash eh ad more total bases. bitch sit down and learn

Posted by doug

3:52 PM, Jul 13, 2008

and what the christ do u mean RBIs arent important? how the hell do u win games? i tell u its not measured in singles walks and stolen bases u like retart stat heads think

Posted by Miles

4:00 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Doug,

Cut it out with the name calling.

Posted by Mr. X

4:21 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Good job. 46 is more than 38. This year, it's 32 (Lopez) to 17 (ichiro), so far. Clearly superior.

And let's see here.. last year Ichiro had 5 more than Lopez, it just took him 154 more at-bats to do it. Are you going to argue that doesn't matter? Probably.

In 2005, Ichiro had 48 XBH in 679 at-bats, for an extra base hit in 7% of his total at-bats. Lopez had 21 in 190 at-bats. No question who was the better power hitter that year. Lopez.

In 2004, Ichiro had 37 XBH in 704 at-bats, which I believe was the 2nd most at-bats in Major League history at the time (3rd now). That's an extra base hit in 5% of his total at-bats. Pretty pathetic, when you think about it.

If you're going to argue that a single and a stolen base is the same as a double, you'll get nothing but a good belly laugh from me. An infield single and a stolen base won't drive in that runner on 2nd. It's no different than a walk and a stolen base, which also is not an extra base hit. But an ichirobot is an ichirobot. One will make almost any argument to make "Him" look better. I had the same argument with a different ichirobot a couple of years ago who tried to make the exact same argument until I provided the doubles plus stolen base numbers for other superior players, Hanley Ramirez being one (in his first season, 2006). He had 97 doubles + stolen bases in 2006, while ichiro had 65. Both were leadoff hitters. Remember that number, 65 for ichiro.

Let's look at just the AL in 2006. Grady Sizemore had 53 doubles and 22 stolen bases the same year, which makes 75 "ichiro doubles." Also a leadoff hitter, also better than ichiro. Orlando Cabrera had 72 "ichiro doubles" that year. Jeter had 73. Carl Crawford had 78. Chone Figgins had 75. Corey Patterson had 64, one less than ichiro himself. Yes, that Corey Patterson. Scott Podsednik had 67.

Now let's look at the NL. Juan Pierre had 72 ichiro doubles. Furcal had 69. Jose Reyes had 94. Dave Roberts (!) had 67. Felipe Lopez had 71. Alfonso Soriano had 82. Jimmy Rollins had 81. To find someone down below ichiro's level, you have to go to Eric Byrnes at 62.

I'll admit that Lopez has been frustrating this year, since he's been doing his best ichiro impersonation at the plate with very little power. Ichiro only has a few more hits than Lopez this year, but I doubt anyone will argue that Lopez will deserve 17 million if he breaks the 200 hit barrier as well.

Posted by Mr. X

4:25 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"By the way, that was some ownage Mr. X. You really got me there!"

I never said anything about "ownage" or whatever the kids are calling it these days. I simply asked you to correct yourself. It makes me wonder what else you've lied about on here, because I generally don't pay much attention to your posts. That one really stuck out though.

Posted by tom

4:47 PM, Jul 13, 2008

So, you are saying lopez is better than ichiro? am i correct?

Posted by jeff928

4:55 PM, Jul 13, 2008

We will take a win anyway we can, even with a bonehead defensive play by the Royals.

Time to start rebuilding some of the farm system with some decent trades (not the ones that Bavasi made). Let's get something for Erica Bedard for starters.

Posted by Mr. X

5:02 PM, Jul 13, 2008

I don't serve fast food, Tom. When you look at the numbers, it's pretty clear who is better at hitting for power. Lopez already has more doubles in the first half than ichiro has had in a complete season since 2003. Let that sink in for awhile.

I will say, definitively, that ichiro is not 16 million dollars better than Jose Lopez. And so far this season, there's no doubt who the offensive MVP has been, for what it's worth on a last place team.

Posted by Casey

5:07 PM, Jul 13, 2008

X, Faceplant, why are you guys talking smack to each other on a blog?????? I cannot believe you would be so childish. Why don't you waste all of that extra energy writing letters to the FO so maybe they will start using their brain and actually make moves to improve the team.

Posted by Mr. X

5:58 PM, Jul 13, 2008

I just love when the ichirobot brings up the "ichiro double" concept, because they think that they have an "ah-ha!" moment, until I list the players who do it better, or are at a similar level. Look at last year. He had a better season, but his ichiro doubles went down from 65 to 59. How did others fare?

Magglio Ordonez - 58, but 54 were real doubles.
Torii Hunter - 63
Curtis Granderson - 64
Brian Roberts - 92
Carl Crawford - 87
Grady Sizemore - 67
Bobby Abreu - 65
Chone Figgins - 65
Corey Patterson - 63
Jimmy Rollins - 79
Jose Reyes - 114
Juan Pierre - 88
Brandon Phillips - 58 (had to include one worse)
Hanley Ramirez - 99
Eric Byrnes - 80
David Wright - 76

And that's by no mean an exhaustive list. So no, ichiro is not a unique talent. Unless by unique, you mean able to hit over .350 and not have a .400 OBP twice. Because that is unique, to be sure.

Posted by Mark WS

6:11 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Congrats on the Blog Award Geoff.

Posted by Jim

6:12 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Wowsers what poor behavior.....and to think USSM gets flack for actually moderating.....

Posted by Mr. Z

6:23 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"So no, ichiro is not a unique talent." Wow, he sure has millions of us fooled! Thanks for setting us straight 'X' ! You da man!

Posted by chester

6:40 PM, Jul 13, 2008

You guys need to leave Mr. X alone. He is an busy imaginary busineesman. Why would he waste his time on this blog on a beautful day like today.


Bwahahahahahaha

Posted by Fistful of Dirt

7:46 PM, Jul 13, 2008

I would just like to say to MR X, FACEPLANT and everyone else in here.

My penis is bigger than all of yours!!!

Posted by davis

7:50 PM, Jul 13, 2008

i still dont know why ichiro is paid more than ~4 mill a year...we can find no walk slap hitters with average D any where

Posted by Spike Owen

7:52 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Sorry to all of you Ichiro infatuated, but X makes a good point!

Mr. Suzuki is an excellent leadoff hitter and would be an awesome addition to a decent roster who actually drives in runs, and therefore would be worth his salary.

Unfortunately, on our team, his production is not at all what we need most. His special talents and salary are wasted right now.

Believe it or not, Jose Vidro was once an exciting ball player here in Montreal. Man, what a pitfall!

And I wouldn't give up on Carlos Silva just yet. He looks like a gamer and could be the type to get in better shape in the offseason and come back with something to prove.

I would love a Felix, Bedard, RRS, Morrow and Silva rotation in 09'.

Posted by scottM

8:20 PM, Jul 13, 2008


Woohoo! GEOFF's blog lands a tie for third place in the Best of the West journalism contest. Hey, that's 27 places higher than the M's in the MLB power rankings.

(Now if Mr. X and Faceplant could just get along, next year GEOFF might win the thing.)


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008048818_awards13m.html

Posted by Oly Mike

8:22 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Why is it that when the Mariners happen to win a game some people on this blog think that they have turned it around? They have just lost two series in a row to mediocre teams. Forget the glimmer of hope they are still on pace to have their worst all time season and could be one of the worst teams of all time. They have dumped their hitting coach, GM, Manager and under-achieving 1st baseman and nothing has significantly changed. So what can be determined from this fact. Simply this!!! A lot more needs to be done!!!!! They cannot keep over paid underachievers and expect to turn this thing around. It is obvious that the starting players are not getting it done. Riggleman, Stottlemyer, Armstrong and Lincoln are not out there losing the games, not hitting and making "Bonehead" plays (even though Bavasi is gone). We can debate the Bull pen and Bench players like Cairo, Burke and Bloomquist until Hell freezes over. But they are not the ones that are paid Big Money to make this a Winning team. Whatever you may think about Bedard and his mediocre performance he is not the cause of all the losses.

Bedard's Mariner Record
W L SV K ERA
6 4 0 72 3.67

So it must be somebody else. Guess what it is losingr pitching by Wahburn, Silva and Batista and poor hitting by Sexson (gone), Vidro, Kenji and others, erratic defense by Betancourt, Lopez and Raul. These things must change or forget all the debate on this blog. Obscure stats and being a "Gamer" don't belie the fact that Winning is what gets a team to to the "Top of the Mountian" Until the likes of Washburn, Silva, Batista, Johjima, Vidro and maybe others are gone this team will continue down the "Slippery Slope" into Oblivion.

Posted by Ry

8:30 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Fox 2 in Detroit is reporting that former Tiger GM Randy Smith is a candidate for the M's GM post. God help us. If you thought Bavasi was bad...

Posted by RustyJohn

8:41 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Hey guys, enough of the name calling crap- if you disagree, keep it civil- we come on here to read the news and debate the team, not to listen to people go back and forth like middle schoolers.

Dammit, unite behind the common enemy- M's management...lol.

Posted by GripS

8:57 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Baseball is a business just like anything else...

It's not always based on the players ability. If the player happens to have international popularity it doesn't take a genius to know that he's gonna bring in more dollars. That means he's highly likely to get paid more as a result.

Ichiro and Lopez are both good players. Ichiro is worth the money considering the revenue he brings to the ball club. It's a cycle. That's why we have such a high payroll. Think about it for a bit.

Oh and.... good to see Morrow close this one out.

Posted by scottM

9:49 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Not sure who you're referring to Oly Mike, but look what it took, time wise, for the M's to throw away seven million dollars on Sexson. I don't know why Vidro bats clean-up, but canning him right now is another $3 plus million of sunk costs.

Forget the M's dumping Silva. Teams don't dump $40 million over 3 1/2 years. The good thing about Silva is his professional attitude and competitive resolve. He can be a solid #4 or #5 pitcher for the next three years. More run support would be nice for him.

Ichiro is paid $17 million a year, and is a one man tourism attraction, a bigger hitter there than at the plate. He's not going anywhere, and is NOT one of the Mariners problems, contrary to the Mr. X-file take on him.

If Washburn is to be traded, it will be for a prospect and the other team assuming his 2009, $9 mil salary. Bedard will cost another team $7mil in 2009, so the M's would need considerably more back on top of this to trade him. Beltre will cost the M's about $12 mil in '09, so it's hard to expect much back on top of unloading that salary.

Bottom line is that the M's aren't going to dump tens of millions in obligations. (VIdro will be gone soon enough). So, unless an offer for any of these big salary players is irresistible, then the M's will hold tight, which, from a business standpoint, makes sense.

Posted by Oly Mike

10:10 PM, Jul 13, 2008

to scottm

Your ststement: "Bottom line is that the M's aren't going to dump tens of millions in obligations. (VIdro will be gone soon enough). So, unless an offer for any of these big salary players is irresistible, then the M's will hold tight, which, from a business standpoint, makes sense."

Well that might make business sense but Winning isn't going to come from keeping a bunch of losers around no matter how much money they make or how much of a "Gamer" attitude they have. Some players are just winners and many are not. I don't know how to best explain it because it is one of those "Intangible" things. Some players individually can be great but still be losers. Players like Hank Aaron and Ernie Banks were great no doubt about that but were they never were on a team that won it all. I know Washout was on the Angels and they won it all in 2002 but since then he has epitomized "Losing". Again I don't know what it is but this Mariner group that has been put together are losers and they need to be changed and new players brought in before Winning can become a part of the of the Mariner organization.

Posted by Patrick F.

2:19 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Morrow walked DeJesus and got Aviles to fly out. Didn't he?

Posted by Chad

7:57 AM, Jul 14, 2008

I say just trade Ichiro and Ibanez and try to get hefty amounts of prospects. This team isn't going to do anything this year and with Ichiro atleast you could trade him and get great value not only because of the name but for his talent, but then again the M's wont do that because of the owners just like they didn't let Johima go in free agency. This team is destined to fail until they figure out how to produce major league players of their own and trade for something good. This team is several years from competing again, might as well start afreash

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

8:05 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Since Lincoln has mentioned that he reads the Seattle Times blog, fans have to make clear that hring another recycled GM who has been a dismal failure and was fired from his last stint (Randy Smith) is just not acceptable. The last thing this organization needs is to have a Bonehead Bill redux and hire a GM who has experience in running another franchise (Detroit) into the ground. Nothing wrong with hiring an experienced GM but you want someone who has been successful in his stops (Hunsicker & maybe Cashman come to mind).

Posted by Amanda (44)

8:16 AM, Jul 14, 2008

You guys always have something to Bitch about don't you?... atleast I don't have to hear about Richie anymore...

Good luck Ichiro... these guys will love ya one minute then chew and spit you out the next.

Posted by ralph

8:43 AM, Jul 14, 2008

"Mr. X-file"

Oh I got a good belly laugh from that one!

Posted by scottM

8:48 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Oly Mike,
We may agree more than disagree. When mentioning those big salaries, I'm talking about realistic change VS what, in theory, would be best for the team. You and I agree that Bedard is the whipping boy for a trade that didn't meet its expectations. And, I agree that excellent athletes don't necessarily have a burning drive to win. I remember those two critical errors by Beltre in that game we should have won against Texas last August that started the big skid. Beltre is an example of a great athlete who may not deliver when we most need it. Jose Guillen is the lesser athlete, who is far more competitive and brings it every night.

This said, why would the M's throw away a huge investment for Beltre in '09? Beltre plays stunning defense, hits fairly well, though not what he should, and is not a glaring problem. Dumping him for nothing is simply not going to happen. Will another team eat his salary? Doubtful. So the M's will probably stay the course. Vidro and Sexson, on the other hand, are/were bringing the rest of the team down.

Bottom line, its one thing to argue dumping Vidro, quite another to suggest that the M's throw away Beltre, Silva, Washburn, Bedard, Ichiro, eat huge amounts of salary, and get nothing in return.

Posted by Brett in Bonney Lake

8:51 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Is Richie Sexson's wife named Amanda? That is the only explanation that I can come up with as to why the poster using that name has such an infatuation with him. Richie set the organization back half a million dollars, and hasn't hit in a year and a half, so he was released. Move on.

Posted by scrapiron

9:09 AM, Jul 14, 2008

scottM - I agree about Beltre. His power numbers have gone up every year he's been in Seattle, and with next year with free agency looming I wouldn't doubt he'll hit 30+ home runs. He's one of the bright spots on the team, and would definately be on my list of players the interim GM should not be allowed to move.

Beltre has a bad thumb and decided against getting surgery so he could help the team this year. He'll get off season surgery and return even better next year. He's also not getting a lot of good pitches to hit this year with Sexson and Vidro batting behind him most of the year.

Pelekoudas should only be allowed to:
1) Release Vidro
2) Trade Washburn for best deal
3) Trade Ibanez for best deal

That's it. Beltre, Bedard and others should be trade chips for the new GM.

Posted by phillie12

9:34 AM, Jul 14, 2008

The M’s lucked out by scoring on the rundown error yesterday. They still displayed some crappy fundamental baseball. They are a poor baserunning team. Jeff Clement needs to learn to get the ball in play somewhere with a runner at third w/ less than two down. A strikeout is unacceptable. And can somebody please explain to me the popularity with going on contact with the infield in and less than two outs? What ever happened to the strategy of making the ball be through the infield in this situation? Time an again I see the “go on contact” strategy employed on groundballs and the runner is meat at home, yesterday’s blown rundown being the rare exception. The contact play is fine with runners at first and third and no outs. You stay away from the double-play, try to get in a prolonged run-down and exchange first and third with no outs for second and third with one out. Good baseball. But breaking home blindly on a come-backer to the pitcher or any groundball with the infield in? Please. Stay put to live for another batter and stop running yourselves out of innings.

Posted by Mike

9:38 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Yes, yes, we can all stipulate that Mr X hates Ichiro and those that don't are "Ichirobots" or "mathletes" or brainwashed by the equally evil (and probably terriorist) USSM. This way X can steer the conversation away from the fact that Ichiro is a really unique and good ballplayer. Oh yeah, Ichiro also hates kids, puppies and grandmothers.

No he doesn't hit for a lot of power and he doesn't give interviews in English.

But he gets on base a lot, steals bases, doesn't get caught stealing, covers a ton of ground in the outfield and has a good arm. Who else on the Ms does all those things?

On a team where only about 3 guys play good defense and you have a bunch of pitch-to-contact middling starters, Ichiro is the least of your problems.

On a team that thinks it is okay to run out Miguel Cairo and Jose Vidro to premium power positions, Ichiro is the least of our problems.

On a team that extends its struggling and aging catcher to a three year, expensive contract thereby potentially blocking your most majors-ready hitting prospect, Ichiro is the least of your problems.

On a team that DFA's Norton in Wilkerson in order to keep BOTH Bloomqusit and Cairo, then has to trade an actual body to pick up a washed up AAAA firstbaseman, Ichiro is the least of your problems.

On a team that seems poised to trade an injured Erik Bedard for pennies on the dollar after acquiring him for a reliever that has nearly as many saves as you do wins, a very good, young CFer who might be a star one day, a likely #2/3 young starter and two other pitchers, Ichiro is the least of your problems.

Look, I think some of Ichiro's value is diminished by his move back to right. His #s are down a bit this year though his peripherals are not showing alarming declines. In the right deal I'd be willing to trade him but he's still one of our 3 or 4 best players. You don't do that unless you get something back that is really good.

Lastly (and a completely capricious and random note), does anyone else notice that people who tend to use "LOL" a lot in their comments are never very funny?

Posted by scrapiron

9:44 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Prospect Insider is reporting a rumor that Jose Vidro has been released by the Mariners. They will wait to make the announcement until after the all star break.

Posted by bpeto

9:50 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Question for the forum moderator(s) -

Is there nothing you can do to stop the personal attacks in this forum? It's becoming as bad as the PI's site.

Posted by Ryan

9:58 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Scrapiron,

You beat me to it. I did see that too. I'm hoping it's correct. God, we can only hope.

Posted by Ryan

10:03 AM, Jul 14, 2008

Re: Mike's post at 9:38AM


Well put, I couldn't have it better myself. I have no idea why we are attacking Ichiro. Bloomquist has 1 extra base hit all year. We keep running out Cairo, and Vidro in the 4 hole no less. Ichiro is definitely the least of our problems.

Posted by Waz

8:32 AM, Jul 15, 2008

Also, who has the highest RBI in M's organization?

Yes, that's right. Ibanez. Trade him? why?

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