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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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July 9, 2008 10:51 AM

M's need a bidding war

Posted by Geoff Baker

The one thing yesterday's trade of Rich Harden to the Chicago Cubs did was establish Erik Bedard as one of the top remaining options for contenders on the pitching front when it comes to trades. In fact, I'd say Bedard is the best option right now. If it's between him and A.J. Burnett, or Daniel Cabrera, I'd go with the lefty every time. But will the Philadelphia Phillies? In this story, Bedard is refered to as the "B'' list option. Frankly, given the fact Bedard will likely go on the DL tomorrow, retroactive to July 4 (he isn't pitching until July 21 anyway, so the DL is just a formality to clear room for Felix Hernandez), the window for the M's showcase him much more is quickly closing. There is a lot of pressure being put on the front office in Philadelphia to make a move. This story was written before yesterday's Harden deal, but you can see the premise.

At this point, I don't see the M's getting back much more than Class AAA starter Carlos Carrasco, the top pitching prospect in Philadelphia's system. And that's only if GM Pat Gillick, who is not afraid to "Stand Pat" in the face of public heat come deadline time, swallows hard. What might make him swallow harder? Some competition for Bedard's services.

Right now, the best chance of that happening would likely be from the St. Louis Cardinals, who have all sorts of pitching needs and yet somehow find themselves within sniffing distance of a playoff spot. The Cards just watched their division rivals beef up on pitching. This writer, about the only guy in town in a limited media market, isn't sure the Harden and C.C. Sabathia deals will put the Cubs and Brewers over-the-top.

But if you're the Cards, contending unexpectedly, can you afford to take that chance?

Remember, the NL wild card will very likely come out of the Central division. NL West leading Dodgers are a sub-.500 team, as are the clubs chasing Philadelphia in the NL East. So, a second-place finish in the Central might guarantee a playoff spot. At least, today it does. The Cards don't have to catch the Cubs. They merely have to keep pace with the Brewers.

And so, going after Bedard might help the Cards -- at least, in their minds -- do exactly that.

And that would benefit the M's immensely. Think of that house you're trying to sell for $400,000. If you get one serious bidder at $380,000, chances are you'll sell for less than asking price. But if one bidder comes in at $380,000 and the other at $390,000, then you've got two folks you can play off against each other and maybe sell for $410,000. Above asking price.

Right now, with Bedard, going five or six innings per game, the asking price won't be nearly as high as it was last winter, after a season in which he consistently went seven innings. But maybe, with a bit of a bidding war, the M's can at least generate something a little better than they stand to make right now with their six-inning guy about to go on the DL.

One more thought before I close. Brian L. in the comments thread wrote in about how Carlos Silva's sinker had less sink on it than he'd averaged in a prior start heading into last night's game. This according to the Pitch F/x data on the game. I've since been alerted to the fact that the U.S.S. Mariner blog is taking issue with me writing down what Silva said last night. They say he had a less effective sinker because that's what the vertical drop charts show. And also, they point out that he had more flyouts last night than ground outs. They suggest (by the post's very title "When Access is Detrimental to the Truth") that I listened to Silva and wrote what he said because I'm afraid of losing clubhouse access. Yes, that's right. I'm afraid of not having access to players that have been almost universally criticized in this space and by me on the radio at various times all year.

Here's the thing. I tend to make a habit of listening to guys I write about before venturing forth with an opinion as to whether they are right or wrong. Sorry, just a habit I picked up doing this job. You realize early on that you aren't always right, that stats don't tell you the full story and that it's sometimes better to wait a bit before rushing to judgement, calling people "idiots" and stuff that most of us in the pro-ranks of our industries generally got over in high school.

So, when Silva tells us, as he did last night, that he felt more comfortable with his sinker by about the fifth inning, I believe him. Why lie about something like that? In fact, if you check the game data from last night, he recorded 12 outs in innings five through eight. Five of those outs came on ground balls. Three on strikeouts. Two on infield popouts. Two came on flyballs. Don't know about you, but that tells me his sinker was fairly effective. Any of you who watched last night's game probably saw that. I won't pretend that these stats mean everything, because we won't know how successful Silva's adjustment will be until he uses it more often. But in my book, it's reason enough to assume that he knows a little bit about what he's saying.

Unfortunately, or perhaps, fortunately for you, I don't keep a list of fan favorite players (Ichiro, Beltre, Bedard, Clement, Hernandez) or whipping boys (Sexson, Vidro, Batista, Washburn, Silva). We call them like we see them here. The popular and unpopular guys are all treated the same way. And you won't always agree. That's why we let you have your say in the comments area, even if it's something we feel is ridiculous for you to say. We don't know it all.

As for whether or not Silva is spinning yarns about his sinker, first off, the effectiveness of a sinker won't always correalate to how much it drops. If every sinker starts bouncing in the dirt a foot in front of the plate, thrown at the same release point a pitcher normally would throw it, it will have one heck of a drop reading. But it won't entice too many hitters to swing. Or if a sinker drops real nice, right over the heart of the plate, it won't help a pitcher either.

We went over this a couple of weeks back when U.S.S. Mariner took a swipe at Jarrod Washburn -- called him an idiot, I believe -- for saying he had better command. Mentioned his strike ratios and walk ratios. But that basic premise shows a lack of understanding of the meaning of command in the major leagues, which isn't exclusively about the ability to throw strikes and not walk guys. Well, part of it is, that's true. But right here is an example of a guy who throws tons of strikes -- but who also has no command.

Yes, Josh Towers. Know him well. Heard about him all last winter when some folks thought he'd make an intelligent addition to any major league roster. Well, that's not true. He's yielding more hits, more baserunners than ever before, continuously missing his spots going on three years now and given up Horacio Ramirez-like run totals in Class AAA. He lost his command in Toronto the last season I covered the Blue Jays. Meaning, he threw big, fat juicy ones over the heart of the plate on a regular basis starting in 2006. Didn't hurt him in 2005, when he landed a nice contract because of an ability to leave balls just out of a hitter's wheelhouse and get guys to miss, or mishit the ball. He hit his spots with regularity. He had command.

But since then, hitters have hit the ball hard. The homer rate has declined in the minors, possibly because he isn't facing big leaguers anymore. But his walk rates are also up and that's typical of pitchers who get clobbered and then are afraid to throw strikes. Fearful of challenging hitters. It's a fine line with these guys.

It's why you see guys like Washburn, Silva and Towers giving up their share of home runs. Sometimes, the ball is an inch or two too close to a hitter's sweet spot. They live on the edge. With Washburn, lately, he's gotten on the better side of that edge because of a mechanical adjustment (or so he says). He'll still give up some extra base hits, as he did the other night. But so far, he isn't getting crushed like he was in May. So, if that makes him an idiot, OK.

Back to Silva, he made a similar reference to command struggles a couple of weeks ago in San Diego. Said he could still throw strikes. He can still throw a sinker. But that sinker isn't ending up where he needs it to go. It's either dropping too far out of the zone, where he falls behind in counts. Or, it's winding up too high in the zone, or over the plate, and getting crushed. Silva has complained about a lack of a feel for his sinker all season. If this adjustment gives him a better feel for the pitch, enabling him to throw it where the groundballs hit off him aren't rockets, then he'll be a more effective pitcher.

But he wasn't effective against Detroit his last time out. No matter how far the data shows his sinker was dropping. He was continuously falling behind hitters, even after landing first-pitch strikes. Last night, the sinker was moving where he needed it to. Even if he gave up some flyballs as a result. The flyballs weren't crushed. They weren't going over the fence. And they didn't all come on sinkers.

Look, no one is saying Silva is a Cy Young candidate or will continue to have success when he faces better lineups. But he threw strikes last night. And when the balls were hit, they tended to be mishit more often than not. If he keeps it up, against better lineups, perhaps the M's will have something better to take out of this season. Yes, we know his contract looks bad. It will be for a long time. This is about moving forward. looking ahead. Putting aside prejudices and looking at what's actually taking place and seeing whether it is sustained. Strange things happen in baseball. See the terrible Cleveland Indians for an example of that.

And if Silva gets crushed his next time out, then, like Miguel Batista -- still tinkering with the mechanical adjustment he made -- he'll have to go back to the drawing board.

And no, to correct another thing from the U.S.S. Mariner post, Silva doesn't claim to throw a splitter. He cleared that up in an interview three months ago when he stated that some Minnesota writers had mistaken his change-up for a splitter last year because the grip was similar to his sinker and the pitch moves like a splitter. So, that's why Silva hasn't thrown a splitter this year. He has thrown change-ups to lefty hitters.

All done? Good. We can get back to this in five days when we see how Silva and Washburn do against the Royals.

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Posted by BrianL

11:10 AM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff, even if a pitch winds up in the dirt it's going to have the same F/X_z rating as a pitch in the zone. Pitch F/X takes the release point into consideration.

Posted by scottM

11:12 AM, Jul 09, 2008

Adam, your post in the last thread is thorough, and well reasoned, AND water under the bridge. The M's have Bedard through the end of 2009, and don't have these other players.

What if Bedard is not being a slacker, and really has had hip and back issues? I suspect that this is the case. What if, because of this, Bedard's trade value is temporarily deflated? If so, then there should be no rush to trade him at the 2008 deadline. If he does well from mid-July on, then his value will be higher this off-season. If, by some off-season magic, the M's are competitive in '09, then Bedard will likely be a key reason for this. If the M's tank in the first half of '09, then a CC Sabathia sort of deal will be available for Bedard a year from now.

Meanwhile, my three favorite parts of this pathetic season have been watching Felix, Morrow, and Bedard pitch. When these guys are on, we are seeing the very best MLB has to offer.

Posted by Insider

11:23 AM, Jul 09, 2008

I agree scottM. Everyone who was anti Bedard or is now, seems to think the best idea is to trade him now. We arent going to get anyhting even for him in return no matter how avg. he's pitched this year. I say keep him, try to put together a contender over the offseason and if 2009 is a repeat of this year, then go ahead and get rid of him

Posted by Depressed Sonic Fan

11:26 AM, Jul 09, 2008

Wow Geoff, tell us how you really feel. jk

This blog is great - way better than the U.S.S. Mariner, I wouldn't worry about it.

Posted by koogbasschi

11:35 AM, Jul 09, 2008

It seems to me that, compared to last year, there seems to be more snarkiness coming from and directed toward Geoff Baker. People calling him a chicken and a jealous guy, and him reminding people that he's the pro and they're not. Might be worth reminding everyone that all of us posting here, Geoff included --who happens to be a terrific newswriter whose health I'm beginning to get concerned about-- have yet to lose a game. The M's are losing. Not us, not him.

Posted by Oly Mike

11:37 AM, Jul 09, 2008

As I said in the last post what this team needs now is "Winners" bot 'gamers". That is what is wrong with this team. Too many mediocre players (gamers) not providing enough leadership or good example to form a Winning Team. We can hope that players like Washburn, Silva and even Sexson will get better and it looks like they might be. BUT!!! The point is that, no matter what you hope and pray for, they are on the backside of their careers and will never help the Mariners be WINNERS nor grasp a winning philosophy. So I say as I have said before several times irregardless of the Big Money, contract stipulations and potential strategies to get some value in return the infamous 6 (Sexson, Vidor, Johjima, Washburn, Silva & Batista) need to get out of town ASAP in order for the M's to focus on a Rebuilding process for the future.

Posted by Bill

11:42 AM, Jul 09, 2008

I'm not sure if the Cards would make the deal for Bedard. I realize all they have to do is beat out the Brewers but so much can happen in the second half and a team can come out of nowhere, ala the Rockies last season and change the dynamic of what division the wild card will come out of.


I may be wrong, but the Cards potentially could get Mulder and Carpenter back into their rotation before the end of the season. With the pitching they already have, which has been surprisingly good, why deal for Bedard? When the Cards won the Series a couple years ago they certainly didn't have the best team in the league. But they are deep and have one of the best, if not the best in-game manager in baseball. What the Cards need is a closer.


St. Louis baseball fans are probably the most intelligent in baseball. The Cards would definitely do their homework before pulling off a knee-jerk trade for Bedard, who is damaged goods.

Posted by Scanman

11:46 AM, Jul 09, 2008

There is a soon to be free agent out there that nobody is talking about, but one who would make all the Mariner fans very happy if we acquired him. Kevin Calabro will soon be un-employed. He is light years better than Sims so come on FO. Step up to the plate and get a voice that puts excitement back into the games.

Posted by Terry

11:48 AM, Jul 09, 2008

In the interest of fairness, it is a huge canard to suggest that the writers at USSM are blinded by their prejudice when it comes to player valuation or don't understand the definition of one of the most rudimentary aspects of pitching successfully (command).

Why is it such a canard? Because USSM has an archive that refutes such arguments definitively.

Posted by scottM

12:02 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Kevin Calabro as an M's announcer. Excellent suggestion, Scanman!!

Posted by Mint Husky

12:06 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Hook, line, and sinker Mr. Baker. USSM loves to troll you and you always bite with a novel of a post.

Posted by manyoso

12:11 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff,

You are changing your story. Yesterday, you quoted Silva as saying the problem he was having with his sinker was lack of vertical drop.

You were quite explicit about that.

So USSMariner and LL had a look at the actual data and pointed out that, no, his 'adjustment' actually resulted in *LESS* vertical drop.

You get offended and then say that you and Silva were never talking about vertical drop, rather you now say his 'adjustment' gave him better command.

You are changing your story and it does not go unnoticed buddy.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

12:14 PM, Jul 09, 2008

As Scapiron noted in the previous blog, an interim/caretaker GM is over his head in trying to orchestrate a blockbuster trade involving Bedard or even a healthy JJ. Pelekoudas can't even go to the bathroom without running it by the Lincoln/Armstrong duet so until we get a real GM, I think we're pretty much stuck with the current roster. Pelekoudas had to use his chips to persuade the duet that Grandpa Mac needed to go asap and now it seems we're back in the same malaise of indecision. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the rumors of Mr. Yamauchi selling his majority shares to Chris Larson are true then we can get some real moves going starting with severing Ichiro's "diseased roots of the tree" - meaning Lincoln and Armstrong.

Posted by Capo

12:21 PM, Jul 09, 2008

To the USSM trolls....get a friggin life...seriously guys. Ok, we get it, you guys think Derek and Dave are the all knowing.....great, move along.....nothing to see here.

Part of Geoff's job is as a reporter....he reported what Silva had said....he doesn't have to validate that....he's telling us the players perspective on something.......Now if he had said, silva said this....and I see it in his pitches.....thats a different story

You wanna discuss baseball and have fun? Thats great, post away.....but if all you have to do during the day is masturbate to posts at the USSM, then come over here and flame this blog, you need to get a life. This type of posting behavior isn't acceptable over there, and you guys do a great job of chasing any opinions that contradict theirs....so why is it ok for you guys to act like ass clowns here? Seriously, something will get posted here, and like a bunch of little school girls, an hour later one of of you is over there posting "Did you see what Geoff said....", or ""those idiots over there say.....".

Guys, No one is beating down Dave or Dereks doors asking them to work for the Mariners, they are fans, just like anyone else.....guys with good insight, and a deep desire to solve the game....I enjoy reading their work as much as anyone.......but they don't have all the answers....no one does.

Posted by NewFan

12:27 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I tend to agree with the line of thought about keeping Bedard. Currently if you traded him, you wouldn't be getting much return. I think he will get better and go deeper this year - even just to increase his own personal gain at the end of the 2009 season. But if he does, we can get more for him next year may as well - this year is already gone and no point in making a sub par deal right now.

If the Mariners next season give Morrow a start - and he lives up to the potential I hope he has then you have - Felix, Bedard, Morrow - with a choice of Silva, Washburn, Dickey and RRS to fill the last two spots. I would be tempted to trade Washburn - if he continues in the same vein for the next month or two - it will help get rid of his high salary - move Dickey to relief where he has better stats than as a starter and try RRS and Silva in the 4, 5 roles. It would still be a good 1, 2, 3.

Batista, Sexson, Vidro will be gone along with Cairo freeing up some dollars - the bullpen (the best part of the team) will be pretty much as is if Putz comes back healthy, Fields and Jimenez replacing Morrow and RRS.

Then contentrate on getting some offense with the freed up money from Sexson et al. See how Mike Morse goes when back next year - and if Bedard performs well in the later half use the increased trade value to get some better offense.

Posted by kaseyswagger

12:34 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Well if we deal Bedard to the Cardinals we have to get Colby Rasmus back in return.And I would be happy with that.

Posted by Steffen

12:34 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Interesting posting to balance the commentary coming from USSM. Do we ever get to hear you ask (or at least respond to) the persistent question of why Vidro has a place in the lineup with his horrible stats, let alone a frequent place in the cleanup spot?

Posted by scrapiron

12:35 PM, Jul 09, 2008

We need to at get at least a top-20 prospect in a package for Bedard or we should hold on to him. Adam Jones was a top-20 prospect when we let him go.

An injury-prone Carlos Carrasco is not a top-20 prospect. Quite frankly, I don't see too much in Philadelphia that would entice me to deal Bedard. Gillick is looking for a discount in picking up Bedard. I say we stand firm.

St.Louis can offer Colby Rasmus, which would be interesting. We'd still need another mid-level prospect and a major league ready player to make this a package worth looking into.

Posted by geezer

12:36 PM, Jul 09, 2008

1. Nobody said you wrote the story because you were afraid of losing access. The suggestion was that the athletes don't always have the best analysis of their own performance, so access to those athletes may lead one away from the correct analysis.

2. You don't acknowledge the argument that perhaps SIlva's (and Washburn's) improved performance was a product of poor hitting by the opposition. Isn't this explanation just as likely as a minor change in mechanics?

3. I enjoy the blog; thanks for putting the extra time in.

Posted by KP

12:36 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Couldn't agree more with Steffen. instead of listening to two blogs argue over a an overpaid, mostly useless #4-5 starter, can we get someone to ask someone who has a say (manager, front office) as to why Vidro bats 4th? Does no one who covers the team notice this? I feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills here...

Posted by scrapiron

12:38 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Can you imagine Kevin Calabro calling a home run?

"Flying chickens in the barnyard! That baby is gone!"

I second them motion for KC in the booth.

Posted by BWare

12:38 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff:

Beane and Shapiro were smart enough to recognize an impending reality - that this year's trade deadline will be a buyers market. Accordingly, both found situations that worked and cut the best possible deal given the situation.

True win-win transactions.

At this point, it makes little sense to put Bedard up for bid in that market given his issues. His value will always suffer from the fact that his pricing was orignally defined in an inflated sellers market (the 2007 winter meetings) where free agent pitching was scarce.

His mark-to-market pricing now is defined by the payload brought in by Sabathia and Harden - nether of which matches up to what Bavasi gave up last winter to get Bedard. At this point, one must ask if the value of his potential service is greater than the value of his potential trade haul.

Locking in your loss is never a pretty thing. I'm not sure if the current GM has the guts or support to do that. If he did, then many a contract would have been eaten by now.

The best situation that can take place for a Bedard trade now is using him as a carrot to encourage another team to "share a meal" with the M's and eat some inflated contract dollars. Pair him up with Wash and/or Joh, kick in several million dollars, and you might find some takers.

Otherwise, get Bedard well and productive and bid him out at the winter meetings...

Posted by Faceplant

12:39 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"Part of Geoff's job is as a reporter....he reported what Silva had said....he doesn't have to validate that....he's telling us the players perspective on something"

A reporters job is not to be a stenographer.

Spare me your faux outrage. If the ussmariner was in the wrong, I would say so. They aren't.

Posted by Buzzy

12:42 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff - appreciate your hard work on this blog. The clowns over at USS Mariner love nothing more than to complain about anything and everything Mariner. Sometimes they're right, lots of times they're wrong, but there is no accountabiliy ... it's just fire away. If Geoff - appreciate your hard work on this blog. The clowns over at USS Mariner love nothing more than to complain about anything and everything Mariner. If the M's won the Series they'd be complaining that it took 6 games, and it should have been a sweep. They can't hold your jockstrap when it comes ot covering baseball like a professional should. the M's won the Series they'd be complaining that it took 6 games when it should have been a sweep. They can't hold your jockstrap when it comes ot covering baseball like a professional should. Keep up the great work.

Posted by Capo

12:46 PM, Jul 09, 2008

12:39 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"Part of Geoff's job is as a reporter....he reported what Silva had said....he doesn't have to validate that....he's telling us the players perspective on something"

A reporters job is not to be a stenographer.

A reporters job is to report the facts as they are presented to him, and let people form their own opinions. Sorry....you guys need to understand that many a casual fan want to hear what the players are thinking or saying.......If Geoff wasn't reporting this, do you think the USSM would have something to blast? No, but because what was said by Silva, and posted by Geoff, Dave actually wrote a really nice piece about the flaw in the thinking.


Spare me your faux outrage. If the ussmariner was in the wrong, I would say so. They aren't.

Blow me. There is no "Faux outrage"....seriously, some of you guys are like 13 yr old girls....all drama. Its a friggin sports blog, and some of you guys should remember that.......focus on the team, and quit bitching about the bl;og.....or go find somewhere else to post......no one is making you read it.

Already Derek is making a major deal out of something that shouldn't be. I don't think Geoff said Dave at USSM said this.....He said over at the USSM they said this.......which to me only implies he looks at the blog and posters as one group.

Posted by Capo

12:50 PM, Jul 09, 2008

C'mon guys, lets stop the blog vs blog stuff.......seriously.

The USSM is a great resource of information, while posting a non-mainstream opinion. Their stuff is a good read. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say, noe how they say it 9quite often), but at the same time it is something everyone here should be reading.

Can we focus on the Mariners?

Posted by Truth

12:51 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff, you sound like a total jack off, why don't you stick to the story you reported yesterday. If you're such a professional like you claim to be you'd actually check data before presenting stupid theories; instead you just take the word of an overpaid pitcher and present as it as fact. Be a man, admit you wrote a dumb article, and move on instead of being a whiner.

Posted by Ms Fan in Exile

12:54 PM, Jul 09, 2008

On another note...let's say we keep Bedard, and he finally gets healthy....


Geoff,
What are the chances that the Marlins will bite on Johjima? They are in sore need of a veteran catcher.

Posted by casetines

12:58 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Are you listening to me?

DO NOT TRADE ERIK BEDARD!!!!!

The only reason to trade Erik Bedard right now is because you've got your finger on the panic button and everybody is anxious to see what prospects we'll get in return for him.

Well guess what, the answer is nobody near as good as Adam Jones and Chris Tillman and George Sherrill are right now. Not even close!

But, if the M's hold tight that could change. This isn't a case of losing him for nothing. Bedard is under contract next season, so let him play the rest of the year as an M.

Maybe he dominates in the 2nd half. Then trade him in the offseason!

Maybe he does okay in the 2nd half and dominates in the first half of 2009. TRADE HIM IN 2009 THEN!

WHATS THE FREAKING RUSH!? Im so sick of the Erik Bedard trade talk. His value isn't going ot get any lower unless he gets a serious arm injury and is out for the year. Im willing to take that risk if we arent going to get at least an Adam Jones/Chris Tillman package in return. Its pointless.

I would have NEVER accepted the package that the A's just got for Harden.

Keep him around, wait it out, but stop PANICKING. There is no reason to sell now unless you get a package that includes a blue chip, major league ready hitting prospect and a single-a or double-a very good pitching prospect.

Posted by Scanman

12:58 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Scrapiron, that was a great homerun call and I sit here with a big smile on my face just imagining those words with Kevin’s great voice behind them. Man I hope this happens.

Posted by scrapiron

1:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

M's fan: The Marlins would not absorb Johjima's salary.

The Mariners are in the same boat with Johjima as Silva. They overpaid for percieved performance and now they are stuck with the contracts.

Posted by Mike

1:03 PM, Jul 09, 2008

12:51- "C'mon guys, lets stop the blog vs blog stuff.......seriously."

12:21- "To the USSM trolls....get a friggin life...seriously guys. Ok, we get it, you guys think Derek and Dave are the all knowing.....great, move along.....nothing to see here. "

Combined with the masturbation reference from today and a couple weeks ago, Capo clearly has issues.

Posted by Jar

1:04 PM, Jul 09, 2008

casetines,
The longer we have him the less trade value he will carry. A team is not going to trade better prospects for a half year of Bedard then they will for a year and a half of him.

I am not saying we should trade him ASAP, you are right, he will not bring back anyone as good as the players we gave up, but that is because it was a terrible deal in the first place. We will be lucky if we get back something close to what Oakland got for Harden, but that isn't going to get any better the longer we hold onto him.

Posted by KP

1:05 PM, Jul 09, 2008

No one in their right mind would take on Joh's contract and ability to be mediocre. Just like no one wants the puu puu platter of Richie, Vidro, Silva, Willie, Batista or any of the other pieces of junk filling our roster. The sooner we clean out the crap and throw some of our kids in there to see what we have, the sooner we can find the areas that need to be adressed and work towards fixing those. Having a GM would be a nice start

Posted by fc

1:07 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff,

There is nothing wrong with the piece you did on Siva last night.

A reply to the Sabr nerds at USSM is not worth it.

When Derek wrote a couple articles for the PI a few years back that were beyond awful. I could have finished reading ‘War and Peace’ sooner.

Posted by Your local beat writer sucks

1:16 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff, instead of calling out bloggers why don't you ask the manager of this freak show why he continues to bat Vidro 4th? Or are you not enough of a reporter for that?

Posted by KP

1:22 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Vidro is like the 3 ton elephant in the living room... Everyone is trying to ignore it and act like its not there, but its just too big not too. Someone has to answer this question, but it won't happen unless someone asks it.

Posted by Oly Mike

1:23 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I believe that we should stop using the tern "TROLL" herein and instead use the term "Troglodite" as defined below:

Troglodite (standard dictionary) A person characterized by reclusive habits or outmoded or reactionary attitudes or perhaps more appropriate here: troglidite (urban dictionary) These are guys that go to concerts wearing large army boots, and start fights in the “mosh” pits and claim that they have 3 or more testicles because they are so macho. It is very important that if you encounter one of these kind, that you refrain from using big words and good grammar because they will think you are insulting them, and attack you.

Because no matter what you say here someone will attack you no matter if you are right or wrong!!!

Posted by Lenny Randle's Breath

1:38 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff's blog is well written. It's fun to read. He goes the extra mile with videos and pics. Always updated with fresh content. Great information!

This blog has been the best part of season so far.

Jealous?

Posted by Nick in pdx

1:46 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff, when someone tells you that what Silva said and you transcribed is not the truth, they can (and in this case, are) contrasting that with statements being FALSE, not with them being lies. Big difference.

Posted by statboys dad

1:51 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff i like what your saying here. But here is my take.
(1) keep Bedard, put Batista in the b/p add Morrow to the FAB 5 s/p.
(2) With the addition of this years #1 pick the B/P is in good shape for next year.
(3) Go spend the $$ that are gone after this year on a couple of bats, (Dh, 1st base,LF)
(4) keep Beltre also
(5) maybe Jr. would do well here knowing he would be coming back and living next to his old peers and dh, 1st or O/F. Even if he hit 260-270 with 25-30 hr's for 3 or 4 more years. He would be a great draw with a smile!!

Anyway as we said going into 07/08 but really 08/09 would look great and they would contend for the West.

Next season all four teams are going to be very tough. The M's need to stand pat and add power!!

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

1:52 PM, Jul 09, 2008

the effectiveness of a sinker won't always correalate to how much it drops. If every sinker starts bouncing in the dirt a foot in front of the plate, thrown at the same release point a pitcher normally would throw it, it will have one heck of a drop reading. But it won't entice too many hitters to swing. Or if a sinker drops real nice, right over the heart of the plate, it won't help a pitcher either.

Exactly right Geoff. Any baseball coach or scout will agree with this point. When you have "mathletes" that just crunch the numbers and have only crossed the white lines on a rec softball field, these saberheads will use data incorrectly.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

1:54 PM, Jul 09, 2008

When Derek wrote a couple articles for the PI a few years back that were beyond awful. I could have finished reading ‘War and Peace’ sooner.

LMAO!

Posted by Capo

1:57 PM, Jul 09, 2008

12:21- "To the USSM trolls....get a friggin life...seriously guys. Ok, we get it, you guys think Derek and Dave are the all knowing.....great, move along.....nothing to see here. "

Combined with the masturbation reference from today and a couple weeks ago, Capo clearly has issues.


yeah, I have issues....!!!??!!! no more than anyone else here.....but if you were born devoid of a sense of humor or sarcasm, hate your parents, not me.

Dude, those of you who are trolling, and you know who you are....are doing a disservice to this blog and the USSM......Posting inflammatory crap here, then running back over there like little girls serves no purpose...and seriously, If their form of analysis was the be all, end all......then Depo would sttll have a job, Ricciardi would not be clinging to his, and MLB would be full of those guys running teams........the truth is there is NO ONE PERFECT WAY......it takes different approaches, and different opinions to really put it all together...

As I've said, i read both sites, and several others, daily, and appreciate them all for what they are....opinions and entertainment. If you don't like one, and don't agree with the author, then go read something else, or post your opinion on the topic...... posting "Geoff you suck", or try to twist or take something out of context...its just getting tiresome....and sooner or later will end with Geoff leaving, or the blog shutting down (or discontinuing comments.

Posted by NB

2:11 PM, Jul 09, 2008

You know what else gets old is people thinking that those that promote the use of statistics do so as a replacement for scouting, coaching, etc.

No one thinks that. It's a pathetic, tired, two dimensional, flaccid argument that's used to try and discredit posts like the majority of hose on USSM/Lookout Landing and others.

NOBODY WANTS TO GET RID OF YOUR PRECIOUS SCOUTS!!!

Posted by Mike

2:12 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Capo--I have a sense of humor. In fact I find the incongruity of your posts hysterical.

"Posting inflammatory crap here, then running back over there like little girls serves no purpose"

Do you not realize that you are one of the worst offenders at the very thing you criticize.

Posted by statboys dad

2:14 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Kevin Calabro would be a great addition to the M's.
The relationship he has with the players and how he just stood up for what Railroad train that came through Seattle. He would be great!!!

Geoff is a class act also and this blog like others is to through ideas out there. Not see who can be the rudest!!!

On Joh the M's were protecting a young catcher. Taking preasure off of him. But i agree now Clemet needs to be the 31 C, and Burke #2.

Joh and Wash. should be decent trade bate to a Florida or another NL team.

Like I said before we are 2 to 3 free agents away from being very good for quite a while!

Nick in pdx..are you a bball coach in Van?

Posted by Capo

2:14 PM, Jul 09, 2008

2:11 PM, Jul 09, 2008

You know what else gets old is people thinking that those that promote the use of statistics do so as a replacement for scouting, coaching, etc

See, thats the problem with idiots....they pick and choose what they want out of a conversation and blow it up.....if you've been reading the comments here, you will see that on several occasions I say NO ONE METHOD IS PERFECT

Posted by Capo

2:18 PM, Jul 09, 2008

2:12 PM, Jul 09, 2008
"Posting inflammatory crap here, then running back over there like little girls serves no purpose"

Do you not realize that you are one of the worst offenders at the very thing you criticize.


Really???? Show me where? Do you see me posting anything over at USSM? Not for almost a month, and that was simply trying to help out with their server issues.

I don't understand, nor do I want to see any fighting between blogs......honestly, its a one way fight......you don't see posters from here going over there and fighting with posters or authors......

Posted by Mike

2:21 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"You know what else gets old is people thinking that those that promote the use of statistics do so as a replacement for scouting, coaching, etc"

What people? I've never ever seen anyone say that statistics should replace scouting or coaching. Your basic argument that statistics and scouting should be used together is the very same argument that USSM or LL makes.

Posted by Adam

2:23 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Combined with the masturbation reference from today and a couple weeks ago, Capo clearly has issues.


Not to mention when he called my mother a $10 whore...

Posted by Capo

2:26 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Adam....let it go man....I didn't call your mother a whore.....I said that to the person posting under some dumb name....if that was you, then take it for what its worth....

As to you mike, i find it so ironic that some people pick and choose part of a sentence or paragraph, and completely ignore the rest.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

2:26 PM, Jul 09, 2008

But that basic premise shows a lack of understanding of the meaning of command in the major leagues, which isn't exclusively about the ability to throw strikes and not walk guys

Also very true. There's no stat that counts when a pitcher can throw strikes to both sides of the plate. There's also no stat that records every time a pitcher misses his location. Some pitchers use the catcher's mitt as a target, a few don't. Some use the catcher's mitt as the point they want a breaking ball to start breaking some don't. Evaluating command isn't just about the K/BB ratio.

Posted by Lance

2:27 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff, good points on the M's needing to develop a bidding war for one of their pitchers. Unfortunately, you're discussing the wrong pitcher.

Any team that sees Bedard as anything other than a Grade B starter (he's more likely a Grade C right now) has less insight than Bavasi did. Trading Bedard now is all wrong. If he's so good than let him have a good second half and trade him in the winter.

No smart GM is going to let some local media types move them to make bad moves over hype they try to create. And, Bedard is/would be a bad move. Golden arm, ok, bronze arm, with a ten cent head and no heart. It's all media hype with this guy. How stupid.

The guy teams should be going after is Jarrod Washburn. He's got everything a team wants to pick up for a pennant drive. Heart, competitiveness, durability, and he's been pitching very well, and will do even better in the NL. And, he's already earned a ring doing it someone else.

That's the guy Pelekoudas should be trying to get a bidding war over. That's where the action is, where you writers and radio guys should be focusing. All this talk about Bedard is just a big waste of time.

Posted by Capo

2:31 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"There's no stat that counts when a pitcher can throw strikes to both sides of the plate. There's also no stat that records every time a pitcher misses his location. Some pitchers use the catcher's mitt as a target, a few don't. Some use the catcher's mitt as the point they want a breaking ball to start breaking some don't. Evaluating command isn't just about the K/BB ratio."

thats an excellent, and well written paragraph.

Posted by Adam

2:32 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Lance - I agree. Unfortunately, Bedard's value is too low right now to justify trading him.

We are never going to get the value we gave up, but the right time to deal him is in the offseason.

Posted by BrianL

2:32 PM, Jul 09, 2008

If terms of talent and ability, if any team wants Washburn over Bedard then they have worse talent evaluation issues than the Mariners FO.

Posted by NB

2:38 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Mike,

As poorly worded as my initial comment is I can understand the confusion.

I believe that you and I are in agreement.
Stats, scouting and experience all hold valuable roles in the game of baseball and should be held in concert with each other. There is no need for a scouts vs. stats debate as both are vital parts of talent evaluation and roster construction. I apologize for my inadequacy as a writer.

Posted by statboys dad

2:39 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Brianl, lance is right !!! Look at wash's last 6 7 starts...1 2 3 runs with no support. He has the heart but like I said earlier move Joh with him. It should bring back a young talent..

Posted by Mike

2:42 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Capo--One last try. You have railed against people making inflammatory statements yet you call people "whores", "girls" or accuse them of masturbating. In doing so I have singled out specific examples rather than recopying your entire post verbatim. You caught me.

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

2:43 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I agree with scottM (11:12 AM) and Insider (11:23 AM) regarding Bedard.

If scrapiron's quote (12:38 PM) is representative of Kevin Calabro, sign him up!

Thanks for the great job on the blog, Geoff. The blog is educational, entertaining, and a wonderful outlet for opinions on the Mariners (complimentary and otherwise).

Posted by KP

2:44 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Not to beat a dead horse, but yes trading Bedard would be stupid for a number of reasons, most of which have been stated already so I'll spare you. Washburn would only be traded so we can get his crazy salary off the books. But anyone thinking the Mariners are gonna get anything decent in return for any of the named players is on something. The only thing a trade would accomplish is clearing salary and opening a roster spot. The M's are not going to be able to rebuild the farm and team just by trading a few semi-useful to useless players.

Posted by BrianL

2:46 PM, Jul 09, 2008

NB - Don't worry, it seems to be a common misconception that does deserve to be cleared up.

The good folks at USSM and LL (Dave, Derek, Jeff, Matthew, Graham etc) have never lobbied to do away with traditional scouting. This seems to be a side-effect of Moneyball, which implied that scouting was a dieing art that needed to be done away with (and was one of the glaring flaws of an otherwise well-written book). No, what the folks at the USSM and LL desire is for a healthy mix of sabermetric analysis and scouting. They can, and should, go hand in hand to determining player value and ability. Both have their blindspots, but together they create a much more vivid and detailed image.

They talk about metric analysis more than scouting simply because the statistical analysis isn't heard as often in the baseball world. Sabermetrics has only existed since the late 70s-early 80's, and it's constantly being refined and improved upon (take a look at the stuff people are doing with Pitch F/X, it's amazing). As the great Branch Rickey once said, baseball is a sport that is very slow to change. Dave Cameron and company are very progressive thinkers, and that can be alarming to a lot of people within the game.

It may seem like they despise scouting, but believe me, they don't. To them it is equally as important as statistics-based analysis.

Posted by Mike

2:47 PM, Jul 09, 2008

NB--Your writing is great. My reading was bad. I was responding to something that I THOUGHT was turning your statement around but was actually quoting it. I anticipated a fast ball and got a curve. Bad brain.

Posted by Faceplant

2:51 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"A reporters job is to report the facts as they are presented to him, and let people form their own opinions."

The only problem is that what was presented to Geoff was not a fact. Their job is not to just take a quote, print it, and go home (and I'm not accusing Geoff of doing this, at least not purposefully). That's lazines. That's what a stenographer does, not a reporter.


"Sorry....you guys need to understand that many a casual fan want to hear what the players are thinking or saying"

Nobody said that's a bad thing. But the problem is that it's also important to point out that according to the available data Silva's sinker really didn't improve at all from his last start.


"Blow me. There is no "Faux outrage"....seriously, some of you guys are like 13 yr old girls....all drama. Its a friggin sports blog, and some of you guys should remember that.......focus on the team, and quit bitching about the bl;og.....or go find somewhere else to post......no one is making you read it."

Please. One person defends the ussmariner by pointing out that Geoff Baker was indeed wrong about Silva's mechanical change improving the vertical drop on his sinker, and this was your response...


"To the USSM trolls....get a friggin life...seriously guys. Ok, we get it, you guys think Derek and Dave are the all knowing.....great, move along.....nothing to see here."

It's obvious that Geoff is in the wrong on this one, yet your response when someone points that out is "get a friggin life". Forgive me if I find that a tad insulting.

Posted by Faceplant

2:54 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Anyway, as for the Mariners I'm not sure I see the urgency in dealing Bedard. I still think he's been playing hurt all year, and his trade value is lower now that it ever has been. If you don't get the offer you want, hang onto him, let him get healthy and look to deal him at next years deadline.

We don't NEED to trade him, so let's make sure we get a package we really want instead of settling for whatever we can get.

Posted by JayR

2:54 PM, Jul 09, 2008

CAPO- It's a nice day outside, take a break from the blog and enjoy the sun... don't forget to wear some sunglasses so you don't burn your eyes because it seems you never leave the computer. Also, try a Capri Sun as well it will Hydrate you.

All of you are a bunch of Stathead weirdos.

Posted by JayR

2:56 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I'm against trading Bedard unless you get a bidding war and a buyer is willing to over pay for EriKKKK. It would be interesting to see what they do in the offseason with a steady rotation still and the available money they will have after they dump Sexson and Vidro. See if you can get a power hitter without trading EriKKKK

Posted by Lance

2:58 PM, Jul 09, 2008

BrianL, you seem to have a very limited idea of what makes up talent and ability. Attitude is a talent.

Some guys are winners, some guys are losers. Jarrod Washburn is a winner. He'll be a winner if put with a winning team.

Erik Bedard is a loser. He'll never be a winner wherever he goes or whomever he's surrounded with. He's a whiner who only cares about the money.

Anybody who signs Erik Bedard to a long-term contract is a bigger fool than the guy who traded for him and would have signed him to a long-term contract, but never got the chance because he got fired before he could.

Posted by BrianL

2:59 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Here's my baseline, bare minimum requirement for trading Bedard:

The return must be better than the first round picks he would net us by letting him walk after 2009.

Even if that rule is met, I probably wouldn't pull the trigger on the trade, and I'm pretty sure we're not going to get any offers that meet that requirement.

At this point, it would have to be something utterly mind-blowing.

Posted by KP

3:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

As someone pointed out earlier, alot of this trade talk is for nothing. No one is gonna let Pelekoudas trade Bedard or someone of that like unless they plan on giving him the GM job. He might make a minor move or two with ownerships approval, but most of the heavy lifting will be done when the new GM is put in place. I'm guessin that is why they haven't dumped the old worthless junk yet, as they will let the new GM start to rebuild the team in the way they see best.

Posted by Faceplant

3:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Erik has (unfairly) become the whipping boy. He was supposed to be the savior, and now most the people that wanted him can't wait to be rid of him.

I think people need to remember that 100 pitches from a healthy Erik Bedard is more valuable that 120 pitches from almost anyone else. Bedard can help this team win, now and in the future.

Posted by Mike

3:02 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Urgency to make trades is what has led us to make so many bad ones. Trading for trading sake is bad management. Bedard is a very talented and obviously injured pitcher. He pitched deeper in games last year than this. Something is wrong. Get it fixed and you have a whale of a pitcher or great bait. Right now he's neither and dealing him would be a big waste of an asset.

Resin--I will certainly concede that it is difficult if not impossible to measure a player's make-up but the Pitch F/X stuff is pretty remarkable. You really can measure who throws to both sides of the plate, and with how much movement and velocity.

Posted by BrianL

3:04 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Where did people get the idea that Erik Bedard was a 120 pitch type pitcher? He's always averaged 106 pitches per start, and this season (injuries and all) he's averaging about 103 pitches a start.

This isn't any thing new. We knew this stuff when we traded for him. Why are we furious now?

Posted by NB

3:08 PM, Jul 09, 2008

BrianL,

I believe that the majority of "us" were wrong about trading the farm for Bedard being a good idea. As that's now become apparent I think "we" are furious because it's much easier to lash out at someone else in anger than you admit that "we" were wrong to begin with.

Posted by KP

3:08 PM, Jul 09, 2008

BrianL, people are mad at the team in general, and I think we've beaten just about everything there is outta Vidro, Richie, etc... So Eric is just a new person to vent our frustration to. But why no hate for JJ? He hasn't pitched much this season, he's a big baby who needs to learn to pitch with some pain (sarcasm for those of you who might not understand that the JJ rant was a complete joke)

Posted by Capo

3:08 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I've actually been outside, a ffew times today......went swimming, played with my dog...it is a nice day, even if it is 112F.

I don't spend any more time here than many of you, so we can cut that crap out right there.

As to my point with the USSM......focus on the team......as a ffew people have pointed out over there, this whole thing has gone well past ridiculous. Some of you come over to this blog, see something you don't agree with, then run right to derek and Dave with "Look what they posted...", etc.....seriously, you see it all the time......which is fine....stay over there, drink the Kool Aid, don't think for yourselves......

also, my point is not so much with you guys that disagree....its with the guys who are posting "Geoff, you suck" and stuff like that.......fine disagree.....have a different opinion, great.....but at the same time, talk about the team....move on from the petty shit and talk baseball.


Capo--One last try. You have railed against people making inflammatory statements yet you call people "whores", "girls" or accuse them of masturbating. In doing so I have singled out specific examples rather than recopying your entire post verbatim. You caught me.

Good god, lets take those one at a time, in context......

The whore comment was directed at someone who used my name as part of their moniker, making silly comments.

The girls comments was directed at those of you, and you know who you are....who go running over to USSM 5 minutes after a blog is posted here....saying "Did you see what Baker wrote"......seriously, its friggin pathetic.....and you are acting like little girls.

The masturbating comment......some of you guys are like super groupies....you can't think for yourselves, but I'm sure you guys have pictures of Dave and derek bookmarked for those late, lonely nights....and i'm sure there are plenty of them.


seriously.....i just don't get it....many of you here fighting and posting crap are the same people who are always "taking the high road" over there.....and you know this crap isn
't tolerated there, so you come here to be AHoles.

Posted by Mike

3:17 PM, Jul 09, 2008

You still don't get it.

Posted by Lance

3:18 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"The only problem is that what was presented to Geoff was not a fact. Their job is not to just take a quote, print it, and go home (and I'm not accusing Geoff of doing this, at least not purposefully). That's lazines. That's what a stenographer does, not a reporter." -- Faceplant

Faceplant, you don't have a clue, do you? The fact is that's exactly what a reporter does. That's why they call them "reporters". I can explain how that differs from stenographers, but I'm trying hard here not to make points that would simply go over your head .

It's not a reporters job to ascertain what he/she believes is true or false when someone is stating a viwpoint. Their job is to report the facts of what occurs, and what they'e told, without editorializing. That's an entirely different area.

You seem to be confusing reporting, which is what Geoff''s job is, with editorializing. When in print, Geoff must report only facts. If a player makes a statement it's a fact. A fact that he said it. People can agree or disagree with the statement. But, Geoff's job is to report any statement he deems newsworthy. Whether you agree with the statement or not means nothing.

Maybe you need to go out and get a journalism degree before you start talking like you have all the answers regarding how Geoff should do his job.

Posted by scottM

3:22 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Lance at 2:58:

I think you've got it backwards. I think Washburn has stepped up his game the last month because he wants to be traded. I've watched this guy plod along in mediocrity for quite some time. He may be good with the media, but I think he shines it on like a politician backing it up with only average game.

You're making Bedard the whipping boy for a trade gone bad. What if he has been injured (and I think he has been hurt)? I've already seen enough nasty in his stuff that he won't be easily replaced by trading him. He may suck with the media, but he's a good teammate who will bring some great stuff if the M's can get the rest of their house in order.

I think the M's will compete in '09 if we can bring some legitimate power offense to the team.

Posted by Faceplant

3:23 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"Attitude is a talent. "

One that has nothing to do with performance on a baseball diamond.


"Some guys are winners, some guys are losers. Jarrod Washburn is a winner. He'll be a winner if put with a winning team.


Erik Bedard is a loser. He'll never be a winner wherever he goes or whomever he's surrounded with. He's a whiner who only cares about the money."

Erik Bedard has a career winning percentage of .548.

Jarrod Washburn has a career winning percentage of .508

Jarrod Washburn spent 5 out of his 8 years with the Angels on winning teams.

Erik Bedard has never been on a winning team.

So to recap, Jarrod Washburn got paid more money to win LESS often than Erik Bedard despite playing on winning teams MORE often than Erik Bedard, but it's Bedard who's the loser that only cares about money.

Any other dumb baseless comments you want to make?

Posted by spokane E-Six

3:27 PM, Jul 09, 2008

An effective offense cures a lot of ills. Any talk of poor pitching performances MUST be accompanied by acknowledgment that the current offense simply doesn't put up enough run support.

I see the potential value in trading Bedard, Washburn, et al, but nothing will change until the guys stinking up the plate are sent away to "go live on a farm".

Once the piss-poor offense is addressed in a meaningful way, a lot of complaints of the pitching staff will fade away.

With that in mind, why the hell are Vidro and Sexson still in the line up at all?

Posted by Bill

3:30 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I agree with those who against dealing Bedard. What's the hurry?


There is no need to deal him now when his value is at its lowest point, unless someone offers the M's something they can't refuse, and I doubt the Cards are going to offer up Pujols.


Let Bedard pitch the second half, let the interim GM make the "no duh" moves, bring in a new GM, see what this team is going to look like next season, then deal Bedard at that time if it is still the right decision.


I read that the Twins are discussing Beltre, but that no talks with the M's have occurred.

Posted by JayR

3:31 PM, Jul 09, 2008

CAPO-

I think you need to hit up that swimming pool again and relax little guy. Its probably your summer vacation. Go get some popsicles and some G2 Gatorades and chill. I hope you don't throw the Xbox controller at the TV when you get beat on HALO too.

Posted by scottM

3:34 PM, Jul 09, 2008

A key difference between Bedard and Washburn. Bedard is 29 and Washburn a month from turning 34.

If Bedard stays healthy and effective until the end of '09, the market will dictate how much more he is valued than Washburn. Cha-ching. Has nothing to do with greed, but with perceived value.

Again, the M's should not trade either one just to trade them. The team will have $23 million coming off the books when Sexson and Vidro are dumped, so there is no crying financial need to dump either Washburn or Bedard, unless the return is very attractive. A corner outfielder, first baseman, and DH are MUCH easier to replace than two left handed starters.

Posted by Faceplant

3:36 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"Faceplant, you don't have a clue, do you? The fact is that's exactly what a reporter does."

No, that isn't what a reporters job in, and anyone with even a basic grasp of journalism would never claim that it was.

So if someone blatantly lies about something it's not the reporters job to point that out? A journalists job is to give people unbiased facts, not simply report what someone said and go home. If the Gov't told you tomorrow that the cuba was going to bomb us with nuclear weapons, is it the reporters job to just repeat the Goverments line without being the slightest bit critical, or is their job to point out that the Gov't is lying?


"You seem to be confusing reporting, which is what Geoff''s job is, with editorializing."

Editorializing would be if someone injected their own personal opinion. It isn't an opinion to point out when something is not true. It wouldn't be an opinion for Geoff to have pointed out that Silva's mechanical adjustment didn't improve the drop on his sinker, because it in fact didn't. That's called a fact, not an opinion.

Journalism involves a LOT more than just taking quotes and going home. And it's pretty sad that people think differently.


Again, Geoff this isn't meant to be an attack on you. I enjoy your writings, and sincerely believe that you are one of the better sports journalists I've ever read. But I think you got this one wrong.

Posted by KP

3:38 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I disagree ScottM... Getting Washburn's salary off the books for next year would be huge, we could have $30+ mil to spend with him gone, and replacing him wouldn't be THAT hard honestly... He has been hot and his value is inflated at the moment so I think this is the M's best chance to turn him into anything decent and begin to set themselves up to be players next year.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

3:45 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I don't see what the hurry is on trading Bedard, Geoff. Could you please just relax a little. I swear every article you write or blog entry you post is Bedard this and Bedard that.

Look, right now, Bedard's value is as low as it is ever gonna get. Is image is being torn apart by you in particular, he's pitching injured, he's playing for a bad team and he was just traded for. That doesn't present a good sign. If I'm the Mariners I think wtf is the hurry? We have him under contract for another season and right now is value sucks. Let's get him healthy, ride him the rest of this season and then go into the winter and see where things stand.

I can tell you right now, Ben Sheets looks really good to me in the offseason. I wanted the M's to trade for him in the winter but instead they went after Bedard which cost us more. But if the Brewers find themselves unable to lock up both CC and Sheets and opt for CC, I say we go hard after Sheets and put him with Hernandez and Bedard (temporarily) and Morrow to form one of-- if not the best rotation in baseball and then dangle Bedard at next year's deadline.

But can't we just relax on this "trade Bedard" talk? Please? It's making me sick.

Posted by Lance

3:47 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"I think you've got it backwards. I think Washburn has stepped up his game the last month because he wants to be traded. I've watched this guy plod along in mediocrity for quite some time." -- scottM

I agree that Wash has hopes of getting dealt and landing with a contender and has "stepped up" his game accordingly. I haven't forgotten the times last year where Jarrod pulled a "Bedard" and took himself out early where other teammates had to suck it up.

But, I also recall many times over the past 2+ seasons where he pitched a very solid game only to lose due to no run support. I'm sure that wears on a guy, eventually.

As I said, if put in a winning atmosphere Jarrod Washburn will win. There just hasn't been that atmosphre around here for a long time.

FP - as to Bedard, I'm constantly told by the stat geeks that one can never look at a player's win-loss record when determining how good he is. Granted, Erik's never been around a winning atmosphere that would bring out how talented he is. Still, there's always something with this guy (be it in Baltimore or Seattle) and I don't see that changing. Simply put, Erik Bedard = Carl Pavano. IMHO, a team would be better off saving their money.

Posted by scottM

3:51 PM, Jul 09, 2008

KP, Washburn would be much easier to replace than Bedard simply because he is not nearly the pitcher.

One thing we never know as armchair GM's is what sort of budget the M's will be allowed this offseason. If they decide to go down to the $80mil level our options are severely more limited than if they choose to stay at $118mil and plan to spend heavily in the Free Agent market. So, if the M's are going to tighten their spending, I'm more in favor of keeping Washburn.

Actually, I'm not a big Washburn fan, and, yes, his value is at a high ebb right now (as is his cost), so losing him wouldn't upset me. My expectation for any return on Bedard is much higher.

Posted by Faceplant

3:53 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"FP - as to Bedard, I'm constantly told by the stat geeks that one can never look at a player's win-loss record when determining how good he is."


Don't get mad at me for responding to what YOU brought up. You said Washburn was a winner who would win on a good team, and that Bedard was a loser who would never win.

I pointed out that Bedard has won more often than Washburn despite playing on worse teams.

In other words you were wrong. You were the one that brought it up, not me.


"Still, there's always something with this guy (be it in Baltimore or Seattle) and I don't see that changing."

Yet there is zero evidence that that "something" (which is Bedards relationship with the press) has any affect on his on field performance.

"Simply put, Erik Bedard = Carl Pavano. IMHO, a team would be better off saving their money"


Maybe if you ignore the fact that Carl Pavano has never had anything even approaching Erik Bedard's talent. Pavano never had the peripherals to back up his flukey results.

Posted by mark

3:57 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Capo. Don't bother justifying yourself to these clowns. If we ignore them they might go away.

Posted by Lance

4:08 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"If the Gov't told you tomorrow that the cuba was going to bomb us with nuclear weapons, is it the reporters job to just repeat the Goverments line without being the slightest bit critical, or is their job to point out that the Gov't is lying?" -- FP

Yes, it is the reporter's job to report that. Of course, he's free to do additional investigative reporting to see whether the statement is accurate or not, and report those findings.

But you seem to have this incredibly inflated view of yourself, that if you (or anyone you're getting information from) disagrees with anoither's statement then the reporter is irresponsible for reporting it.

Now, if Geoff hear's a statement and feels it needs further investigation, that's his perrogotive. But, in the case of what Silva said, Geoff apparantly didn't see the need. That doesn't make him a bad reporter. Silva is entitled to his view. He said it. Geoff saw fit to report it. He did not see fit to investigate it. Geoff did his job. You read it. You feel it's not factual. You're entitled to your view, just as Carlos is his. But, that shouldn't badly reflect on Geoff in any way, which is what you're trying to say.

And, to continue with your analogy: wouldn't it be a kick if the gov't told a White House reporter that Cuba was about to bomb us with nuclear weapons, the reporter didn't believe it and so didn't report it, and the next day Cuba bombed us with nuclear weapons. Now, that would be a bad job of reporting.

Posted by Lance

4:16 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"Yet there is zero evidence that that "something" (which is Bedards relationship with the press) has any affect on his on field performance" -- Faceplant

Actually, it has nothing to do with his relationship with the press. It has much more to do with constantly growing history of being hurt. He just doesn't ever seem to be able to stay healthy. He never has, and at this point, I don't believe he ever will. It's just gone on much to long now.

It's in that respect I meant there's always something with this guy. And, I don't suspect signing him to some outlandish contract is going to change that. We got snookered.

Posted by jeff928

4:16 PM, Jul 09, 2008

It's past time to try to undo some of the damage that Bonehead Bavasi did to the Mariner organization. Sexson, Beltre, Vidro, Johjima, Erica Bedard, Washburn can be had for a decent prospect. A bit more for Ibanez and Green.

Posted by The Centerfield Bum

4:23 PM, Jul 09, 2008

The M's may not put Bedard on the DL to make room for Felix.

Felix won't be activated until Friday at the earliest. With the 4-day All-Star break coming up next week, the M's could probably afford to send a reliever down (either Jimeniz or Corcoron).

Assuming that a pitcher (Bedard, Washburn or somebody else) gets traded this month, it might be advantageous to send a reliever down now so that they'll be eligible to be called back up in 10 days when its likely that the M's will need to fill the roster spot of whoever gets traded.

If they wait to send somebody out when Bedard comes back from the DL, then whoever gets sent out won't be eligible to come back until sometime next month.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

4:27 PM, Jul 09, 2008

You really can measure who throws to both sides of the plate

Mike it's true you can figure it out by adding up the pitches. But there isn't a math formula for it. Maybe Bill James will create one next and offer it to the successful sabermetric GM's like Mark Shapiro, JP Ricciardi, or Paul Depodesta,.

Posted by BrianL

4:35 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Resin, pay attention. We're talking about Pitch F/X. This is a system of high-speed cameras installed at all 30 ballparks that allows us to determine just how fast a ball is thrown and how much it breaks.

Posted by bammy

4:35 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff,

Great post today.

Derek,
Go back to writer's camp.

Posted by Bill

4:40 PM, Jul 09, 2008

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhPIPEtFQ1fq5zXxbryqFr.FCLcF?slug=thesurveysays&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Besides the takes on Ichiro, apparently the scouts think Yuni is the second best infield defender in the A.L. and that Raul is the second most underrated player in the A.L.


Hopefully that raises their trade value!

Posted by BrianL

4:42 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Yuni? The second best infielder in the AL?

I'm not sure if anyone has been watching lately, but his range is gone. He might be a worse fielding shortstop than Derek Jeter now.

Posted by meagain

4:46 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I didn't keep a chart last night. Watching the game, I felt that Silva's sinker wasn't working early, and for some reason--getting a little tired?--seemed to improve as the game went on. If the guy who was throwing the pitches agrees with me, I'll go with my own observations--as did Geoff. Round ball, round bat, and there isn't much margin between a line drive and a popup.

That's why Duchscherer looked like the second coming of Greg Maddux yesterday, and Jeremy Reed was griping about line drives that didn't fall. When Warren Spahn was doing it, they called it the comfortable collar. Whether it's statistically pleasing or not, Silva pitched well against a weak hitting squad yesterday.

As for Bedard, the guy is an enigma. I have no flippin' idea what's going to happen, but it will be interesting. Much more interesting than anything Bedard will say. After listening to that boneheaded interviewer from Philly, I almost began to sympathize with him for being so taciturn.

Posted by Tacoma Rain

4:51 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff and others,
I am really confused with your thought processes.
If you thought Bedard was worth trading a boat load of players for 5 months ago, then why are you not suggesting and even encouraging the Mariners to SIGN Bedard now?
Bedard is the same player he was 5 months ago, only that his value is LOW.
Bedard is far better than any other #2 starter they can hope to sign in the off season, or even try to trade for.
Now is the time to SIGN Bedard.

Posted by meagain

5:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Tacoma Rain, are you a season ticket holder? (I'm not.) How much would you be wiling to spend on Bedard, and for how many years? Do you think he wants to stay in Seattle?

A season ticket holder friend of mine has very little good to say about Bill Bavasi's work, but he is very glad that Bedard wasn't signed to a long-term contract.

Posted by Erin

5:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Does anybody still go to uss mariner? Good lord why? If I wanted to talk to jr high kids, I'll go there.

Posted by Capo

5:00 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"I think you need to hit up that swimming pool again and relax little guy. Its probably your summer vacation. Go get some popsicles and some G2 Gatorades and chill. I hope you don't throw the Xbox controller at the TV when you get beat on HALO too."

LOL, good one!!!!

Actually, I'm 39 and a disabled veteran, which is why I'm home all the time.....its not by choice. I actually have a Gatorade G2 (Grape) and a Dreyers Fruit Bar (Lime) sitting right here......but no Halo, Just MLB08: The Show on PS3

Posted by Capo

5:05 PM, Jul 09, 2008

4:40 PM, Jul 09, 2008

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhPIPEtFQ1fq5zXxbryqFr.FCLcF?slug=thesurveysays&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Besides the takes on Ichiro, apparently the scouts think Yuni is the second best infield defender in the A.L. and that Raul is the second most underrated player in the A.L.


We can only hope that GMs for other teams actually believe this.

No one on the roster should be untouchable, no one.....but that doesn't mean we have to get rid of anyone (except the usual suspects: Vidro, Cairo, Sexson). But i'd have to be bowled over to trade Ichiro, Felix, or Beltre......maybe Bedard......If We can get a couple of MLB ready guys in return, he's gone.


Posted by NB

5:05 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Are we talking about the same Mark Shapiro? The one whose Indians won 90+ in '05 & '07 and who are loaded with young talent in the big club and in the minors? Seems like an odd choice when lumped in with one with a marginal track record (Ricciardi) and one without a long enough track record to judge on (DePo).

Also, I'm pretty sure that the GM's of Boston, New York, Tampa Bay, Texas, Milwaukee and Arizona (off the top of my head) pay attention to Pitch F/X.

If you want to ignore information that's fine. But just acknowledge that it makes YOU the dogmatist not that other way around.

Posted by Faceplant

5:06 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Sorry the reply took so long. I'm at work.

"Yes, it is the reporter's job to report that. Of course, he's free to do additional investigative reporting to see whether the statement is accurate or not, and report those findings."

Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy, as we are talking about a sports journalist here, and obviously their role isn't the same as say, a political journalist. But a journalist isn't just "free to...see whether the statement is accurate or not", he is obligated to.


This is a quote from former US Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black in "The New York Times v. The United States".

"The press was protected so that it could bare the secrets of government and inform the people. Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people..."

The founding fathers certainly viewed an adversarial, and even hostile press as absolutely essential to mantaining democracy. If a journalist didn't inform his readership that a quote they reported was false, he wouldn't be doing his job.


"But you seem to have this incredibly inflated view of yourself, that if you (or anyone you're getting information from) disagrees with anoither's statement then the reporter is irresponsible for reporting it."

This isn't about a disagreement. This is about fact vs. fantasy. This isn't about two people who have opinions that they can back up with legitimate facts. This is about fact vs. fiction.

And I never said it's irresponsible to report it. But you need to also point out that it isn't true.


"And, to continue with your analogy: wouldn't it be a kick if the gov't told a White House reporter that Cuba was about to bomb us with nuclear weapons, the reporter didn't believe it and so didn't report it, and the next day Cuba bombed us with nuclear weapons. Now, that would be a bad job of reporting."

Or the reporter could do the responsible thing which is to report that the Gov't was lying to people about Cuba possesing nuclear weapons.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

5:08 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Washburn is actually easier to trade than Bedard right now. Bedard could only yield about .25 on the dollar right now - sort of like buying WAMU stock earlier this year. Washburn's 2009 contract actually seems reasonable given the market ($10m). Maybe he could be packaged with Joh who has a ridiculous contract ($8.5m) for a backup catcher - I would do that trade for a bag of balls just to get the $20m salary savings that could be used on a free agent like Ben Sheets.

Posted by Faceplant

5:11 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"It has much more to do with constantly growing history of being hurt. He just doesn't ever seem to be able to stay healthy. He never has, and at this point, I don't believe he ever will. It's just gone on much to long now."


And that proves Bedard is a loser who's only in it for the money? Forgive me if I misunderstood what you were talking about, but it came just a few short posts after you blasted Bedard for being a loser who's only in it for the money. A charge by the way, that's completely ridiculous.

Posted by Oly Mike

5:14 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I am actually amazed at the discussion about Washout. Let us see. Jarrod Washburn is a winnner. I don't think so. Washburn has been in MLB since 1998. He had a winning season 6- 3 as a Rookie. He add four other winning seasons-2000, 2001, 2002 (his best year18-6) and 2004. Washburn has not had a winning season since then. The Mariners picked him up as Fee Agent for 2006 and all the Angel fans I know were ecstatic to see him go because he had developed a tendency to find a way to lose. It is no longer a tendency but a fact and he is 34 and is not going to regain the 2002 form. So the Mariners should dump him ASAP especially now while some perceice that he has value.

Posted by Ryan

5:23 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Seriously, stop using the Indians as a crutch for why data based anaylsis doesn't work. You used to lump Detroit in there as well until they started winning. You can't POSSIBLY predict everything... but seeing how the Mariners turned out, how Detroit has rebounded, and about 90% of all the other happenings in baseball that projections like PECOTA picked up on, you have to give data based analysis SOME kind of credit.

Posted by dumb bloggers

5:29 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Geoff is a pro...paid hansomely to report on baseball...Bloggers Uss mariner, lookout Landing the rest here are not So stop with your bullshit "stat knowledge" It's a joke ripping Baker

Posted by Faceplant

5:32 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Oh, and by the way, Silva was either lying in the past, or he's lying now when he says he never threw a splitter.

From the startribune,

"He also worked on a split-fingered fastball that he tried out in his last start of the regular season, a 5-1 victory over the White Sox. He plans to use it like a changeup.

"We were like, 'Wow, what was that?' " Anderson said. "He's throwing it here right now and it's diving."

Silva said: "I tell you, you are going to see it. That's going to be a big pitch for me this year. ... It moves the same way as my sinker. I think that pitch is going to help me a lot.""


Didn't seem to be saying that it was a change back then, did he.

It took me all of 2 minutes on google to find that.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

5:42 PM, Jul 09, 2008

This isn't about two people who have opinions that they can back up with legitimate facts. This is about fact vs. fiction.


Here's a "Fact."

In fact, if you check the game data from last night, he recorded 12 outs in innings five through eight. Five of those outs came on ground balls. Three on strikeouts. Two on infield popouts. Two came on flyballs. Don't know about you, but that tells me his sinker was fairly effective-Geoff Baker

Here's "Fiction":

If the ussmariner was in the wrong, I would say so. They aren't.-Faceplant

More Fiction:

Dave Cameron and company are very progressive thinkers, and that can be alarming to a lot of people within the game.

I seriously doubt Dave Cameron's name is floated around in the annual GM Winter Meetings. LOL!

The romance and passion you guys have for Manny, Moe, and Jack at USSM is alarming.

Here's something to "mathculate" ....

USSMariner Gods


Posted by Brandon

5:45 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Anybody slamming ussmariner or lookout landing is just plain ignorant. They actually back up their arguments with facts rather then some stupid baseball cliche. Baker is just mad because he again has been proved wrong in his analysis.

Posted by Faceplant

5:46 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Resin, go take your act to someone who actually buys it.

The FACT is that pitch f/x showed that his sinker had no more downward action than it had before the mechanical adjustment, completely contrary to what Silva claimed.

Now, if you have anything substantive to say (doubtful) here's your chance.

Posted by BrianL

5:55 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Yes, Resin. I'm sure Dave Cameron is actively trying to become a General Manager and his failure to secure a GM position is a damning failure and indicates that all of his stances are wrong.

And Resin, what point are you trying to make with that YouTube video? I'm not hearing anything controversial here.

In this video they said that

1) 2006 Adam Jones wasn't ready for a callup. This was true.
2) The 2006 Seattle Mariners weren't really in a position for a playoff run. Turns out that was true as well.
3) Mike Hargrove needed to be fired for bullpen mismanagement and veteran entitlement. Yup.

Posted by Mr. X

6:06 PM, Jul 09, 2008

"calling people "idiots" and stuff that most of us in the pro-ranks of our industries generally got over in high school"

LOL! It doesn't get any better than "pro-ranks", and really that's what it comes down to. The guys at USSM admit to being part-timers, and it shows.

If Geoff doesn't have a gameday thread up before the game starts, losers and lunatics complain about it. If he posts something with (alleged) incorrect information in it minutes after the game ends, before any research can take place, the same losers and lunatics stop their bootlicking on another site long enough to come over here an write a 50 word post, not realizing that they just eclipsed Dereka's usual blog post by at least 30 words.

When your favorite sports talk radio host interviews someone who says something that isn't true, but it's something that doesn't really matter, it hardly ever gets corrected. Why is that? Because nobody gives a rat's rear end.

If a minor league outfielder believes that he is playing well because he has this Yoda doll that he travels with and draws inspiration from, that isn't challenged by USSM, it's celebrated. Even though it has no basis in reality. They can relate to Snelling more because of it, because it's all about wookies, hobbits, and Klingons.

But that's what you get with that crowd.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:07 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Are we talking about the same Mark Shapiro? The one whose Indians won 90+ in '05 & '07 and who are loaded with young talent in the big club and in the minors?-NB

'02= 74-88
'03= 63-94
'04 = 80-82
'05=93-69
'06=78-84
'07=96-66 (division title)
'08=37-52

521-535 That's below .500 in his 7 years. His 5 year plan has failed. He's had 5 losing seasons out of 7. Shapiro is rebuilding again. He has made numerous bad decisions like re-signing Travis Hafner when he was hitting Mendoza line in 2007 and was in and out of the D.L.

He traded for Andy Marte that failed giving away Ronnie Belliard. Shapiro gave up on a good player in Brandon Phillips and DFA'd him for a PTBNL. Shapiro traded the better player in Kevin Kouzmanoff for a bust in Josh Barfield. His platoons of his bust prized free agent David Dellucci has cost playing time to younger prospects that are going to take several years to develop by not playing every day in Ben Francisco and Franklin Guitierrez.

You better believe the fans are restless in Cleveland and Shapiro's job is absolutely on the line. Not many fans enjoyed seeing the best pitcher in Cleveland history nab only 1 legit prospect in return in LaPorta.

Posted by BrianL

6:15 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Resin, Cleveland got a tremendous outfield prospect, two serviceable pitchers, and a PTBL (and the current rumors suggest the PTBL is going to be an immediate impact player) for Sabathia. This haul outweighs the draft pick Cleveland would have gotten otherwise.

CC is nothing more than a rent-a-player for the Brewers this year, seeing as his contract is up at the end of the season.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:28 PM, Jul 09, 2008

Not what I heard Brian. Try telling that to the Cleveland fans. Oh and Shapiro recently signed Jeff Weaver, and the awful Juan Rincoln. Shapiro is looking like more and more like Bill Bavasi.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:32 PM, Jul 09, 2008

I like LaPorta, I watched him play first base at Florida. I thought he was a reach pick where he was drafted. He's going to be a slow corner outfielder. I see him replacing Hafner at DH in a few years. He's got power, but not a tools guy.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:35 PM, Jul 09, 2008

The decision to lock up Hafner long term instead of extending Sabathia's contract is extremely questionable decision.

Posted by NB

6:36 PM, Jul 09, 2008

*Sigh*

Mark Shapiro traded Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore and has him locked up long term below market value, Mark Shapiro traded Broussard/Perez for Choo/Cabrera, Mark Shapiro was Asst. GM when the Indians signed Fausto Carmona, Mark Shapiro originally traded for Hafner and enjoyed multiple years of stellar production for bargain basement cost....

How did a conversation about Pitch F/X morph into a listing of good/bad deals by Cleveland's GM?

Probably because you don't have a leg to stand on so you drift off topic, insult someone, claim to your right to your own opinion, etc.

It gets old.

Posted by BrianL

6:39 PM, Jul 09, 2008

NB -

I think after I explained that Pitch F/X was a twin-high speed camera system and not a spreadsheet on Dave Cameron's laptop, Resin realized he needed to change the subject.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

6:45 PM, Jul 09, 2008

NB- So what Shapiro landed Sizemore in a deal? Five losing seasons out of Seven and you want to applaud Shapiro who is bound for a 90+ loss season for Sizemore and Hafner? That's ignorant.

I can use the same logic and say Bavasi signed Jeff Clement and Yuniesky Betancourt, and Brandon Morrow so Bavasi did not deserve to be fired.

People like you that ignore the facts posted here about Shapiro and his career losing record are exactly the type of people that post uninformed opinions.

Posted by NB

6:50 PM, Jul 09, 2008

The point is simply that every GM has good deals and bad deals. I also guarantee you that I'm at the very least as informed on the game of baseball than you. But that's not at all what this conversation is about. You're drifting all over the place and the only way I could make you happy is to say that anybody who uses SABR stats is a buffoon and your sacred scouting is the holy grail of talent evaluation. You'll never get that out of me or any one else who has decided to take an objective, balanced view of the game. I leave you for now to your one-dimensional dogma.

Enjoy the game. Go M's.

Posted by Tim

9:28 AM, Jul 10, 2008

Quick question: If Bedard's value has dropped to where we may only get 1 AAA pitcher (I don't know how good this guy is), maybe Mariners should consider not trading him. If we can't get much now, maybe he could help our rotation next year (this assumes that he gets back to his previous form). If we still want to trade him, we might get more next year. I've also been reading how some teams are better off getting 2 draft picks when they lose a good free agent. I'm sure these options are obvious to everyone, but sometimes people tend to get tunnel vision.

Posted by Rob W

5:27 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Totally off the subject , but....
Met a guy from Japan on 4th of July. He says he read in Tokyo sports page that Kenji will be playing in Japan next year. Team offering him same money he is making with M's. Heard anything about that Geoff?

Posted by TwinCities

11:35 PM, Jul 10, 2008

U.S.S. Mariner bloggers are complete douchebags. Most hilarious was that Brain L was the first to comment on Geoff's post. I can just see that douche waiting at the public library's computer ready to pounce on Geoff's retort like he pounces on pork rinds. USS Mariner = Douche

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