Can't say I disagree with the idea of blowing it up.

The scary and frustrating part for Mariner fans is just the fact that we have ZERO faith in the decision-makers, and rightly so. If they decide to re-tool, or to blow it up, the concern remains the same - will someone competent being doing that job?

There is no courage, no committment, no sense of responsiblity in this organization.

This is why it sucks to be a Mariners fan.

Geoff, When will the day where we talk about the "taxpayer financed stadium"? I'm right with you that accountability to the fans is long-overdue. But seriously, no one talks about the bigger issues anymore. The fact that we payed $500M for a stadium just so Howard Lincoln could print money. The fact that the fans are completely patronized every night with dancing grounds crews and hydroplanes when a terrible baseball team is the main attraction. I understand you may not WANT to talk about all of that, but some of us DO. Please don't wait!!

I was wondering what your take on it was going to be Geoff. Excellent analysis.

I do slightly disagree with the "it's not an old thing" issue. Sure, some younger players are underperforming, but young players can still be molded into winners. You can't teach an old dog how to win.

Sexson and Vidro should be DFA'd. Ibanez can stay if he'll play first base, otherwise he has value and can be traded for some young talent. Burke has to go to make room for Clement and Johjima to share catching duties. I would suggest trading Johjima, but I think ownership would have a problem with dealing their star pupil. But reduced time behind the plate should not be ruled out. Washburn and Batista need to be traded.

Purge yourself of the bad mojo!

I agree with Geoff in a lot of ways. However, maybe a couple of guys like Jose Guillen around would make a big differnence and we don't have to blow this thing up.

By the way, who are the players who contribute to this losing attitude?

Adam - I'm not against "blowing it up", but I'm petrified with Bavasi at the trigger. Can you imagine how he'd rebuild the team? I shudder to think.

No, blow it up after you put Antonetti at GM and rebuild it with a sabremetric plan.

But I think that Armstrong and Lincoln don't "get" the new math and don't want to be part of it. Could they possibly change their mindset?

I think anything we say at this point has already been said over and over. I supported some of these guys longer than just about anybody but even I have to face facts now. No matter how much I had given up on Sexson, I still had a glimmer of hope that this thing or that thing would be what turned him around. But we live in reality, not in fairie land, and I admit too he is officicaly done. Two years ago when I saw Betancourt and Lopez, I thought that soon they would be the best infield duo in baseball but they do not learn from mistakes and have never progressed from 2006. I still root for them and they are both hitting right now but I'm extremely disappointed in two of my favorite players. I don't think we would be mad about rebuilding if we hadn't already been doing that for the last 5 years, we don't want to wait another 2 or 3 when we're supposed to be winning now. Plus, I just don't have faith in the FO do make the moves to make this team good. And the owner for those who don't know, not only doesn't ever go to games but he's crazy too. He almost singlehandedly runied Nintendo and now he's runing the Mariners. PAUL ALLEN NEEDS TO BUY THIS TEAM. BRING BACK PAT AN LOU!

What kind of "established talent" do you think would be willing to come here for a rebuilding effort/youth movement?

This team is a desperate wounded animal and it's about to be thrown into a caged deathmatch at the baseball equivalent of the Roman Colloseum: Fenway Park.

I predict a clubhouse brawl, Mariner fighting Mariner, before the series is over. Maybe McLaren will go completely insane and set fire to the clubhouse with the doors chained shut as Bavasi suggested. Anything seems possible right now.

Hey John McLaren - Profanity is the resort of a weak character, it really does you not good other than make you look bad. Why give in to such behavior? Now perhaps Howie, Chuckie, and Billie will have reason to at last fire you.

Profanity is no motivator, it just makes you sound emotional, you need to be more intellectual in your approach to the game. But your time has come, time for that pink slip. Try and take Bill with you, please.

A reason for optimism all M's fans. Look at this scenario for the future.

Bavasi keeps his job for next year. Mac is sacrificed for another guy approved by Bavasi with the same managerial skillset.

Instead of underperforming, in 2009, the team overperforms. Think a record a little better than 2007. In addition, Bavasi goes out and gives Mark Texiera a monster deal. He also gets Jon Garland to replace Miiguel Batista or Washburn as the 5th starter. Raul becomes the DH. Vidro and Cairo are both gone. Mariners win the 2009 World Series and Bavasi becomes GM for life. Cheers.

Very well said Geoff! It is encouraging to see that you are starting to realize the very same things that many of us have suspected for some time now. You have a way with words and have said it far better than most of us ever could. I hope your words carry some weight. I hope the FO is listening and is in the midst of doing the serious soul searching that you speak of.

Well, I guess I'll be the one person to come to Adrian Beltre's defense once again. I'll make this short and sweet.

Beltre is posting a Line-Drive rate of 20.4%. That's way better than his marvelous 2004 campaign. At the same time, his BABIP sits at .238, well under the .290 league average and WAY under his career norms. The only person in baseball suffering from worse luck than Beltre is Jason Giambi.

I imagine that if his BABIP was closer to that league-average .290 mark, he would be batting at a .270 clip with an .850+ OPS.

Geoff,
First things first.
What players want to stay here??? I can not imagine that either Beltre or Bedard want to. Despite these guys being two of the better players (judged by talent, not 2008 results), it looks to me that they are just going thru the motions and NOT CARING if the team wins or loses.
This is the big problem.

"Bring in some established talent that can win when the pressure's on. That can teach younger players to play the game right and conduct themselves appropriately as major leaguers off the field and in the clubhouse."

That was exactly what the M's tried to do in 2004 and they lost 99 games. Then they tried it again in 2005 with different players, and it didn't work again.

It's not a viable strategy.

It starts by recognizing who definitely aren't going to be contributors for 2009 and getting them off the field now. Playing time for them does nothing for the future. That's Sexson, Vidro, Washburn, Batista, and Cairo. Maybe Rhodes too. Replace them with kids who "might" be contributors, and give them the rest of the season to show what they can do. Not 15 games, not two weeks, not with someone looking over their shoulder with a quick hook if they don't deliver immediately. Not with situational roles, platoons or spot starts. The rest of the season, as every day players.

Morrow should be in a minor league rotation within a week, so there' some hope he could be in the big league rotation next year.

RRS and Dickey should immediately move to the rotation, swapping places with Washburn and Batista for the rest of the year.

If O'Flaherty is healthy, bring him up and DFA Rhodes. Nothing against Arthur, I have fond memories, but a 39 year old LOOGY is not a key component for 2009, and finding out if Eric O can get his groove back is more important.

Cairo should be DFA'd and Vidro takes his place as a PH.

Sexson should be DFA'd so he can get started trying to salvage his career somewhere else. Ibanez moves to 1B - yeah, he'll struggle trying to switch in the middle of the year. Who cares? He has the rest of the year to earn the 2009 starting 1B job. Assuming he wants to stay.

Reed and Balentien are the starting corner OFs every day, no matter what the pitching lineups, no matter what their numbers are.

Clement and Johjima trade off catching and DH. Clement is in the lineup every day for the rest of the season, no matter what his numbers are.

Someone gets together with Putz and figures out if he's hurt and needs time off, or if he's rusty and needs more work. Whichever it is, he gets it.

Play that team for the rest of the year and see what Reed, Balantien, Clement, RRS and Dickey can do over 100 games. See if any of them are regulars for 2009. Depending on what they do, and how Morrow does in Tacoma's rotation, make your off-season decisions based on that. Forget in-season trades, unless someone offers something good for Ibanez, or to let someone like Sexson, Batista or Washburn get a change of scenery at their request.

Interesting thing going on with Beltre..... When he started to hit some homeruns in, he is now swinging at any balls, mainly striking out at balls as high as his head or balls low and way away. It appears that he is also swinging so hard that he now closes his eyes.. He needs to learn that he can not do the HR swing, but just put the ball into play, especially he should hit to the opposite side. The worse thing for Beltre is to hit 3 or more HR in one week, he goes mental on us.

Geoff - great analysis, but could have easily been written at least a month earlier. I would argue that it could have been written toward the end of last year. In fact, I think the writing was on the wall way back when Bob Melvin was fired. Many with inside knowledge of the Arizona D-Backs would say that Bob had more to do with the Arizona World Series win than their manager, Bob Brenley.

I can't see how anything will change until changes are made in the FO. I don't see this duo of Howdy Doody & Chuckie Cheese being remotely capable of running a major league baseball team. They're the ones that establish the culture of the entire organization. They're the ones that hired Bavasi, and he is clearly in way over his head. The team desperately needs a new GM, and that GM should be hired by someone other than Chuckie Cheese. Only after a new FO is in place will you see this arrogant and secretive attitude toward the fans and community disappear.

I truly feel sorry for the owners, because their intentions have been honorable, and they have given top management all the necessary tools to enable them to have a first class, winning organization. It's a shame they have placed their trust in the wrong people to manage the Mariners.

In lieu of these events, the least that should be done is to DFA some of the bums - Sexson, Vidro and Cairo - before leaving for Boston. Give them a stay at home partner in John "Profanity" McLaren. Dismissing these losers will at least begin to send the message that losing is not acceptable. It is way overdue and the only accountable move open at the moment - soon hereafter, Bavasi should follow the bunch out the door.

Geoff, this is a pretty good post. But I disagree with a couple of points you've made:

- On management finding problems with the club: that sounds revisionist to me. Maybe its just the tone, but I thought you were too easy on the team & players up until recently (a few weeks ago). If you were calling out the front office to do something, it was meager.

- On Valentine vs. Mac: I know you like Mac, and Valentine probably won't win 90 games right away, but Mac is a part of the culture of losing. Valentine, like Sweet Lou, wouldn't stand for this crap from day one. And, while Mac has been behind the 8-ball a lot, he's also shown that he's not quite ready to be a big league manager yet.

But I agree with you on the main premise: everyone is failing, from the front office to the manager to the coaches to the players. Right now, the M's organization is pointing out how others need to change (Mac to players, Bavasi to players, Bavasi to Mac, Armstrong to Mac/coaches, etc.). The problem is only partially voiced: those same parties need to make changes themselves, and nobody is willing right now to stand up and say, i'm failing.

What happens when you get people with a not-my-department kind of attitude? The 2008 Mariners.

I think the final question needs to be posed one way: to remove a culture of losing, can we get away with NOT blowing it up?

Amen Geoff. Well said. We're all preaching to the choir here. This is an absolute disaster we have here. Very sad.

BrianL, good job on the Beltre statistical analysis, but I can't agree with defending him. He has what, 13 homers and 27 RBI? He should have quite a few more ribbies than that. As Geoff pointed out, he's hitting well below the Mendoza line with RISP. His plate discipline is AWFUL - He swings at pitches OVER his head - something no major leaguer should do and he consistently tries to pull EVERYTHING - everything on the outside and inches off the outside of the plate. He can't go get it and serve it into right like Edgar used to do. Beltre flat out looks foolish up there many a time. Like so many things on this team, it's unwatchable.

Now, this post is why I like this blog.

And, macdoubter, this is why I think you're so off-base when you call GEOFF a shill for the M's.

I don't know, just my guy, but I predict a change or two before the game Friday. They essentially have a day and a half off and some travel, so they might try something to appease the fans. Nothing major though.

Do the rest of you folks have problems with captcha? I hate it. Most of the time it rejects my first entry even though I've cleary typed it in right.

Geoff, what did you think of Mac's profanity laced tirade? Are you bummed you missed it?

Excellent read Geoff, some tough decisions need to be made in the future, but are they willing to make them. They have already acted to slow for this season, but is it going to be late for next season.

Even though most players are underperforming, you need to cut the deadest of wood first (or trade for peanuts). Eat their salary if you must. An example needs to be made of Washburn, Batista, Vidro and big Richie as a bare minimum. If others continue to stink it up. They can join them.

Some gutsy decisions need to be made with leadership from the top.

Somehow I don't think that is going to happen.

The Mariner's also need to remember that their fanbase goes far beyond the city of Seattle and spreads to all over the world.

Chopper58 in Canberra, AUS

nice piece of work Geoff. These next few months should be very interesting.

Maybe the first player to go should be our "fearless" "leader" Ichiro. Over the past few months I have gotten tired of watching his primadonna act. He is a selfish man. Frankly his game has fallen to just average. Ichiro was an asset when he was batting .325+ and had a .380 OBP, but now he is just another average overrated leadoff man, that has a ridiculously bloated contract, with an over stroked ego to match.

Think Ichiro cares about winning? Think again. Ichiro cares about Ichiro.

Remember Boston & Duquette? That looked like a team mired for years of bad contracts, terrible chemistry, and little hope for the future. A change at the top, a new regime that understood the numbers, and a little luck. Two years later they have their miracle. Oh yeah, they had a budget, but so do we.
Things can change for the better here as well. But that change will need to start at the top. The M's have some very capable partners in their ownership. It's time they had a meeting and decided on another of their number to replace Howard Lincoln and get this club on a winning course. They've spent a lot of money for this kind of result, and it's past time they found another style of management better suited for a winning team. Armstrong can consult or retire. Maybe Cashman would like a different challenge as a team president. He may be available at season's end. Get Antonetti, Ng, or Cashman as GM and maybe we can be drinking some refreshing lemonade in 2010.

Geoff--I appreciate the work you put into the post and your coverage of many aspects of what's happening with this team. My only gripe, of course, is again with your handling of the McLaren issue.

McLaren will continue to get ripped to shreds daily for his every decision. Believe me, I know how this game works. Some of it will be justified, some of it not. It doesn't matter any more.

So that's it? The manager is a non-factor from this point forward? I still think that you're forever giving McLaren a free pass. His in-games moves now, though they may justify some criticism, don't matter anymore, even though they never seemed to matter to you before, either.

I'll agree with you that maybe whatever he tries do now might not matter much in the grand scheme of the team and organization with all of the problems that exist.
But with so many people throwing up their arms in disbelief and confusion trying to find the cause of any or all of the problems, McLaren could-and should-at least do a little more good to help his case as the manager and as someone who's appears to be part of the solution instead of the problem. It might also go a long way in showing you and the rest of us just what kind of manager McLaren could have become while he is still here and in a mariner jersey.

After all, just because there may be bigger problems influencing this team other than McLaren (e.g., the culture of losing) that shouldn't excuse him from not making the best daily decisions that he can possibly make as the manager to put his team in the best possible position to be more competitive and possibly win for a change. For it's at this time, when the team is going through so much adversity, that we should expect as great a leader as possible.

Geoff, when everything else is going well for the mariners, that is when McLaren's decisions won't really matter. They do, however, matter now more than ever.

Yes! The BIG Question. Good post Geoff. The people at the top need to figure out why the M's can't make Varitek etc. etc.etc.ad infinitum into great players but other organizations can.

They need to ask why there are always so few .300 hitters here.

They need to figure out why with a100 mil plus payroll they can only manage one barely winning season out of five. They need to look at not just this year but the last 5 and even 15.

They need to figure out what it was exactly that Gillick/Piniella were able to counter. I have my suspicions, but because I don't know for sure I won't speculate.

They answers, I suspect, won't be easy to swallow,and will, I also suspect require major changes. I'm doubtful they will come but hey,that's just me.

I said it before: Sure, the players are underperforming,but basically they've been set up to lose.

Brian Cashman is available next year thats who we need to hire to be our GM.He can work with a big payroll and he wont have pressure from the owner to make some bad moves.He also gets good young talent.

And as far as a manager anyody who has a previous winning background is the man for the job.

Adding a couple of bats to the lineup won't make the Ms competitive next year or the year after. Tearing down for a total rebuild makes sense, if the person doing the tearing is someone you trust.

Unfortunately, Armstrong would likely replace Bavasi with a carbon copy - a 'baseball man' who likes the grizzled vet and detests guys who "clog the bases."

It really doesn't matter if Bavasi and McLaren are fired or if Sexson is released, because more poor decisions will follow close behind. Maybe it ultimately requires a change in ownership to rid the culture that has taken root. Armstrong and Lincoln have fostered this mess and they should ultimately be held responsible, but probably won't.

As long as 'JJ Putz Trainwreck Night' pulls 38k, Armstrong isn't going anywhere and nothing changes.

If the players aren't hitting, they aren't hitting. If they're not fielding, they're not fielding. Maybe this isn't a question of motivation or attitude or dedication or inspiration or whatever other analytical deductions can be derived from the team's performance so far this season.

Maybe they're just A LOUSY TEAM.

Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean it's gonna work out. There are teams with lesser payrolls who are doing better than the M's. If there was such a thing as a "hex" on the Mariners', I'd (almost) buy into that.

What can you say to a player to make him perform? No matter what you say, the opposition is still gonna be pitching, hitting and play baseball. How can someone MAKE anyone a better player than he is? Can it even be done?

All I know is, THIS IS NOT WORKING.

Geoff, welcome to the dark side.

Donovan, why did I take this season to try out that optimism stuff you kept talking up?

:)

It is time to blow it up. Time to slash payroll. Trade away stars (Putz, Ibanez, Ichiro) for minor league prospects and rebuild the farm system, which is bare. Sign Felix to a long term deal, and make him the cornerstone of your starting rotation. Bedard won't stay for a rebuild, so I would try to trade him before the trading deadline to a contender for a decent starter and prospects. I don't think you will find many takers for Silva, so I would DFA him. Start getting Morrow stretched for the starting rotation, and have him ready for next season.

Can both Bavasi and McLaren. Draft be damned. Neither of them are the solution, and anything at this point would be an improvement.

This team isn't going to magically improve overnight folks. This is a team that needs to start from ground zero, and work its way back up.

Mariners in 2012!

Dave from the coast said:
"There are teams with lesser payrolls who are doing better than the M's."

2008 Florida Marlins
32-26 record, 2nd place in NL East
$22 Million payroll

Florida Marlins @ Seattle Mariners
Monday, June 16th
Tuesday, June 17th
Wednesday, June 18th

And in case everyone hasn't heard...
2008 Seattle Mariners
21-39 record, last place in AL West
$117 Million payroll

I think the team can be turned around this offseason as long as we have a new GM.Once we are rid of the contracts of Richie Sexson and Vidro and Ibanez dare I say it.We can go after a Texiera.And make some trades and have Morrow in the rotation and just have a younger team with better players.I'm sorry but you just dont win when you have a lineup full of guys hitting under .230 and the guy who was catching the most heat during the offseason about getting traded Jose Lopez is our best offensive player.You have to have patience I saw us get rid of Carlos Guillen and watch him become a great player and I knew Jose Lopez would be great to a long as you give him time he is still young I dont see how after a couple seasons and him being an allstar so young you just want to replace him with guys like Mark Loretta and Marcus Giles that right there tells you why we are so bad its the people in the front office,they are not good at there job bottom line.

I have played enough MLB 2k franchises to know how to put together a winning team.

Back away from the cliff.

Well said, Mr. Baker.

Great post, Geoff. Thanks for your honesty.

Wolfie @ 12:56

Do you really mean slash the payroll??? I've heard a couple people say this in the past few weeks, and I really don't understand it. If you have the advantage of money to spend, why take it off the table???

If you meant start spending payroll dollars wisely, then I do agree with you.

I'd love to see what a competent GM could do with 120 million a year.

If this is *any* consolation... for those who love to watch games at the yard instead of on tv, it's getting real easy to find tickets cheap! many season ticket holders are all selling off bunches of games now, tuning out and making plans to do other things with their summer weekends and weeknights.

Great post, Geoff!!! If you want to talk about easy answers though, I believe when Bavasi pulled his big trade with Baltimore he put his blinders on, and hoped that would do it! Let's keep it simple!

And that was the M.O. the Mariners FO thought they could sail through a winning season on- easy answers. After all, didn't many in the media call the Mariners the favoite of the AL West? Why argue with that...no, no deep thinking necessary. Just floating along, doing their own thing! They don't need to explain their way of doing things to the fans or the media because, hey, they're cool, and btw, This Boy's Club doesn't have to justify its actions to anybody!

Note to Howard, Chuck, and Bill: honesty and accountability start at the top. If you won't commit hari kari, then at least resign as soon as is honorably possible!. Poor Mac, finally losing it. He may secretly want to be fired-- just now figuring out why your predecessor resigned, huh, Mac? Don't like all this scrutiny, do ya? After today's little tirade, I think, Mac, you need a nice long rest!

And draft day is upon us...so let's get it done, and get back to the business of making those changes that need to happen, let's see some of those hard choices made. And it will be tough, guys, because...there are no easy answers...the good baseball organizations all know this!

Several unconnected thoughts:

- These guys are still not accountable, and still cowards, because they're not naming names. Silva is the first to come closest to actually calling people out, and even then it's a handwave of "some people just play for their own personal stats, get a couple hits and they're done". Until they're naming names, and/or apologizing for their own performance rather than being simply 'disappointed' or 'puzzled', then it's still pretty hollow.

- A banner in center field simply saying 利己的 might light a fire or three.

- Was with you most of the way in your post until your 3rd to last paragraph. Then it got into hypothetical theoretical land. Armchair GMing. You can't make statements like that without naming names.

Want an easy answer? Bring in some established talent that can win when the pressure's on.

Who?

That can teach younger players to play the game right and conduct themselves appropriately as major leaguers off the field and in the clubhouse.

Who?

That can get the existing "young talent" on this club to fire on all cylinders like a Brandon Morrow.

No, seriously, who? What free agents are experienced enough, talented enough, and available, to plug in? This is just more of the incremental "couple good guys away" nonsense that got us here in the first place. You're correct to point out that blowing the team up is difficult to do for all involved (including some diehard fans and most casual fans). However, if the existing team does not have the talent to perform, across so many of the 40-man roster, then the answer is to home-grow the next team several years down the road, and build a new culture, new skill sets, new approach, from day one.

- Re: the culture of losing in the Ms org - this should not be surprising to see at all if the marketing mantras of the club are taken into account. Consider that the glory days of this team are boiled down into 5 basic things:

1. 1995, which was highly statistically unlikely, required a serious sustained rally and career years from several people, and also required a near-epic collapse of their closest rival.
2. 2001, where the regular season was a cakewalk, but when the true test, the true pressure came along, they were one and done.
3. Apart from 1995, the only real team history and team identity is not about the team at all, but about individual players (Edgar, Junior, Randy, Ichiro, etc.).
4. On average, in any given year since its inception, the team is more remembered and beloved for its main radio announcer than any one particular year.
5. In every instance that the Mariners have made it to the playoffs, they have always reacted like, been marketed as, and have played as, people who were just happy to be there. Being in the playoffs at all was the goal and that was achieved. Even in getting to the ALCS once, all involved from players to org to fans were more stunned than anything else.

- Name me all the times in the last 2 - 3 years that players - any of them - have been benched for lack of effort or for boneheaded mistakes. Bet you only need one hand to do it. All benchings have been gently phrased as platooning, rest, etc. The only 'punishment' that can be tangibly meted out by a manager is denying someone playing time and being transparent about why that is. I can't imagine that even the shy guys get into pro sports without an enormous ego. Dealing a blow to that ego by directly saying "you're benched b/c you didn't pick it up / didn't make that play", has to have some effect on at least a couple guys.

- There is no one to call Mac on his foolish in-game strategy, and he is basically the emperor with no clothes every night with no one daring to challenge him. Assuming that the culture of deference and walking on eggshells extends to the coaches. Either that, or he's made the fundamental mistake of all people managers everywhere, and that is to surround himself with people who aren't smarter than he is. Don't give me the staatistical argument about how seldom a manager directly affects a game, that the average manager only helps produce a couple wins a season, blah blah blah. We have seen time, and time, and time again, Mac make lineup changes, rotation decisions, in-game reliever choices, pinch hitting choices, pinch runner / fielder choices (or lack of them), that are most of the time playing "by the book", gambling... and LOSING. Blind adherence to lefty-righty matchups in pinch hitting, regardless of individual records against pitchers or current hitting streaks. Blind adherence to set roles in the bullpen, regardless of current performance. Mechanical problems with hitters and pitchers that are spotted days in advance on the blogs before they're acknowledged implicitly or explicitly. McLaren is, quite simply, a poor manager in every respect: strategy, motivation, leadership, in-game situational awareness.

- The players will not change, will not adapt, and have no one around them who push them to do so. All of King County can tell you when Beltre is going to flail at a high fastball; can tell you to put Sexson away by throwing the 1-2 or 2-2 pitch low and outside; can tell you the numerous problems these free-swinging Ms get themselves into. Every bit of coaching and advice we ever hear about is "we're trying to get back to basics and just hit, bat-on-ball" or "we try to teach them patience, but it doesn't work, they need to be the hitter they are" or (my personal fave) "the Latin players just swing at everything, it's how they were brought up, there's nothing you can do". Bull. This is your job. This is your entire focus (doubly so if you're a DH). Adapt or die. If a guy won't listen, bench him until he does. If a guy will listen but seems lost, talk to scouts, watch tape, break down the swing. If a guy is trying to do too much, get them focused in-game on just what's needed next. One swing COULD tie it up, but if what's needed is a bunt or basehit, take it for the team and do that. No one seems willing to do that.

- Ichiro's running-crashing catch, and his reasons for doing so, tell you all you need to know about his mindset and motivations. I've resigned myself to never getting to see the Ichiro of the WBC, or the Ichiro of 2001 with everything to prove. He may be a superstar in Japan, but here he's not a leader, doens't want to be, won't be. Bavasi could name him the team captain, complete with precious little C on his chest, and he wouldn't step up. I'm still impressed by his skills and amused and entertained by his commentary and personality. But until or unless we see him step up like a real veteran should, I'm very sad to say I don't have the respect I did for him.

- Sexson's conduct, just like his record, really deserves no commentary. I can't get worked up about him being there or not anymore, because he obviously knows his time is up. He's doggin' it just like anyone else who knows they're about to be fired and it's just a matter of the paperwork going through. I've fired people before, I've seen this before.

- Poor Dave Niehaus. That man deserves so much better than he's witnessing every night. In the year he goes to Cooperstown, he ends up calling games for a team very much like the ones he was witness to when Seattle first got to know him. And I know it's ghoulish to say, but he's not going to be around forever. How many more chances will this man have to call a playoff game? If I participate in baghead night, I just might scribble "Niehaus Deserves Better" on the bag...

How much longer can this go on?

These are all skilled athletes. Some not as skilled as they used to be, but still skilled enough to play professional baseball. Remember when Randy Johnson was in his last year here? A lot of people said that his skills were gone, and he would never be a premier pitcher again. His problems weren't with his skills. He felt he wasn't being shown the respect he felt he deserved. His slump was mental, not physical.

Everyone came to training camp wanting to win it all. Reality hit the fan when they asked themselves how many teams won their division when their power hitter bats .200. Add to that the fact that he is the 7th highest paid player in the game, gets about 30K for each at bat and wonders why people boo him when he strikes out, you can see how the seed of doubt and resentment could have been planted.

Add the GM's history of bad trades, contracts that upset other GM's by setting salary precedents (Silva is one example), standing behind a dead horse because you don't want to eat 12.5 mil., etc., etc., etc., and you begin to see how doubt and resentment and doubt just might just creep into the heads of the players.

They are getting paid lots of money and we think that should be reason enough for them to play hard. But it doesn't work that way. They are lifelong competitors and they want to win. Their skills have brought them here, but doubt is all it takes to prove Henry Ford right when he said "Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right."

Right now, get rid of Bavasi and cut Sexon (he'll be fine). Show the players, managers and fans that there actually is accountability in the organization. Who knows? People might just feel a little less secure in their jobs and start earning their pay.

But who am I kidding? Until the poor attendance starts to panic the accountants, very little will be done.

No doubt that something drastic ought to be done to salvage this ball club besides dumping some old timers who are no longer producing.

I say ship Ichiro to Boston.

Unlike Seattle, Boston is demanded to be competitive every year. They need to win and build the team simultaneously. David Ortiz’s hurt his wrist big time. Boston is in need for a left-handed bat. Manny probably will be on the DH role. They would love to have an outfielder like Ichiro to lead off their lineup. This is good for Ichiro too. Fenway is an excellent ballpark for a single hitter like Ichiro. In return, they may offer Brandon Moss, or Coco Crisp and some young arms.

Then a question pops up. Suppose Ichiro (our team leader?) is gone, “who” do we build the team around?

Guys need sports to spice up their lives. Give me something to lighten up my boring life.

Nice post overall Geoff but I disagree with you on two key points regarding the manager. Why feel sorry for McLaren? Sure its not entirely his fault but a good deal of it is. He cannot make players get a hit in key situations and things of that nature but he can have them well prepared to do so when the time comes. At the very least, the manager is responsible for the overal chemistry of the team - their attitude, culture, preparedness, etc. As you state this is a team that feels its ok to lose... how is that not McLaren's fault? It's one thing to play the game right, play it hard day in and day out fighting for the win but to lose to a superior team. Can you say that's what is happening here? the obvious answer is NO. The players are not giving 100%, most do not care if they cause an error, let the team down, etc. they just go into the clubhouse, watch a movie or play a game, etc.
It may not be that McLaren is 100% to blame for this but at the very least he has done little to get it turned around. Isn't that the managers job? Have the teams mental state of mind on the right track, have them ready and prepared to win each game?? If McLaren was doing this we wouldn't be in as bad a shape as we are now. We may not be a contender but we wouldn't be the embarassment we are today.
Secondly - sure Valentine or even Lou could not turn this into a 90 win club overnight because it's not known yet that we are even capable of doing so but he can get the teams Culture turned around. He can succeed where McLaren has failed in the teams preparedness and attitude towards the game. Sadly McLaren has not done this and has proven he cannot so it's time for him to go and somebody new to come in.

Posted by Dave from the coast
(Maybe they're just A LOUSY TEAM)
You say you can't make a team play better than they are but that's not true. The first Yankees series, I watched on tv and they made mistake after mistake. I was at the Boston series after Bavasi supposedly called the players out. That was the best baseball I have seen all season tied with the first Angels series. The defense was amazing that whole series and the offense, while still not that good, did what it took to win. That's the team that was supposed to win the West this year, but then acouple losses from Detroit and they're back to form.

Geooff, Thank you for the best piece you've written yet. A lot of valid points made. The M's really don't care what we think, or want....they made that perfectly clear in 2001 when everyone knew they needed a couple of pieces to get over the hump....and did nothing....then did the same in 2002 and 2003 when the window on that roster was closing.

I'm all for "blowing it up", and have been advocating it since May 1st. I think this is an organization thats shell shocked, and they need to clean house.......the problem is, with this huge blowup, and display in the clubhouse with the players, do you think anyone wants to play for this organization as is? Players talk, and I'm sure there isn't a player in an M's uniform who has anything good to say about playing in Seattle.

As to blowing it up......I think they need to gauge interest in players like Ichiro, Beltre, JJ, and Bedard....and if someone wants to overpay now in major league ready talent, pull the trigger...or build up the interest and bidding leading up to the deadline. Yes I include Ichiro....he's 34, expensive and as much as we all love him he isn't a player we want to build around, he is more a "co-star" or "supporting actor"......a contender like the dodgers would probably put together a nice package.....maybe solving our OF problem if we were willing to take back a guy like Pierre....maybe a combo of Pierre and Eithier or Kemp, plus a prospect or two. Atlanta and Tampa Bay both need closers and have deep farm systems.....

Honestly, we could compete in three years making the right moves.....we could trade for younger talent and we could get cheaper, allowing us to fill the holes with "select" FA players.....not JR, not silly FA like Zito or Schmidt, but guys on the right side of 30 with upside.

All of this is a moot point with the organization as is.......as long as Lincoln and Armstrong are running the show....as long as Bavidiot is putting the pieces in place, as long as McClaren is running the team on the field, all we can do is wish.

BTW, I'm tired of hearing people say that Bavasi was instrumental in Anaheim winning the WS....he was fired because he sucked, and Stoneman had much more to do with that teams makeup.

Who here has seen the Major League movies? Maybe not the best movies but I still love em. Maybe the Mariners should have a movie night with those instead of Super Troopers. In the second one, there's a really good quote where the catcher talks about how he loves playin baseball and at some point, they did too. I always loved that line.

No one is immune to criticism, but all "good guy" veterans are immune to accountability and being let go.

Reported attendance for yesterday's game was over 31,000. Nothing, NOTHING will be done if people keep going to the games.

Face it, this club can't find its a-- from a hole in the ground. I doubt Mac will be back next season, but I am afraid Bavasi will and he will have one more shot with some money to spend and will bring in mediocre at best players for over 10 mill per year.

Problem as I see it with this group of "players" is that they thought these guys were self-motivated and a nice guy manager will be there to give encouragement and everybody will perform. Not the case, there is no leader on the team and it sorely needs a pain in the a-- manager that will get in people's face, call people out, and not be afraid to get rid of people.

Wilkerson and Norton were choices that were too easy because they have not had a chance to become friendly with Mac.

'08 is finished and as each day passes with no changes, you can get closer to kissing '09 good-bye.

How much are we paying Yuni, Balentien, and Clement to suck?

We're paying them pocket lint compared to what we're paying Sexson, Vidro, and Raul to suck. There's an enormous difference. If those young guys don't come in and blow you away, you can replace them fairly easily if they struggle because you've got very little invested in them. But when you've got a whole lot of that $117 million payroll sunk in a few horrible old veterans with terrible contracts, you can't justify sending them to AAA. That's why they haven't been moved around or DFA'ed despite being terrible for a long long time, there is too much money tied up in them, and it makes the front office of this club look like idiots to eat a 14 million dollar contract for someone not on the roster. They haven't been ready to eat that crow and tacitly admit to their own stupidity and that's why Sexson is out there, and that's why people have become complacent. This veteran entitlement has gone on for years and it has shown that there will never be consequences for poor play.

There is a lot of cheap talent in this league that is freely available (or there was, at least, during this past offseason). Cheaper and better than Washburn, cheaper and better than Batista, cheaper and not much worse than Silva (at least, how good Silva was supposed to be, definitely better than he is now), cheaper and better than Sexson, cheaper and better than Vidro. There has just been horrible contract after horrible contract with this team vastly overpaying for overrated players and now it's coming back to bite us in the ass, color me not surprised one bit at this collapse.

Everyone has played poorly, but once again, the two premium power positions on this team should be 1B and DH and those positions are filled by our worst power hitters. They, first and foremost, have to be held accountable for this crappy offense. There are few shortstops out there who hit well, there are few second basemen who hit well, there are a few decent hitting outfielders floating around, but there are a shit ton of 1B/DH capable hitters out there who can hit better than these two jokers, why are they not the first on the chopping block when they are sucking, overpaid, and easy to replace?

the irritating thing is that Wlad needs to be in the lineup everyday trying to get better. Him sitting on the bench is a waste of time. I think within the next month both he and Clement will be in the lineup every day for the remainder of the season to either prove they can play up here or show that we need to go in another direction.

Geoff,
The problem with the Mariners begins at the top; not only messrs. Lincoln and Armstrong aka Arrogance and Ignorance, but the absentee owner in Japan who affords his Japanese players favored status.
I admire Ichiro's skills but I often wondered about his attitude; his unwillingness to move to centerfield when Adam Jones was in the lineup, his unwillingness to dive for balls because of fear of being injured etc.
Now we have Kenji Johjima a slow-footed DH in catcher's clothing. The rumblings you heard yesterday were the graves of Mickey Cochrane and Gabby Hartnett overturning watching Jojjima's half-hearted tag play attempt on Tori Hunter.He doe not have the skills to be a quality major league catcher.
If this labels me a racist, so be it, but someone has to say out loud what I am guessing many of the players are already thinking.

Colin Cowherd was absolutley right this morning--it's a leadershio issue (McLaren) and not a talent issue. "McLaren is a first base coach masquerading as a manager."

STENGEL.

CASEY STENGEL.

PLEASE, get the names of the Gods right.

Bavasi yesterday, on the Mariners pulling the plug:

"That's going to be a long time. That's going to be quite a while. Because we're not giving in. It's going to be real tough for us to give in. If we give in, it will be at the last minute, I'll tell you that."

Uh, wake up Bill...It already happened. What's next? You're going to tell everyone how it's "going to be quite a while" before you go bald?

Geoff, this article is a little late. About 8 - 9 months too late. It is clear to me you still believe that that 88 win team was an 88 win team and was the real deal. It wasn't. The results have proven that out.

You can't complain. Bavasi gave you what you asked for. You said this near the end of your article:

"Want an easy answer? Bring in some established talent that can win when the pressure's on. That can teach younger players to play the game right and conduct themselves appropriately as major leaguers off the field and in the clubhouse."

Isn't that what Bavasi gave you? He dumped all those unprofessional incarnations of Ryan Anderson for Bedard and gave you what you wanted. He signed the great Wilkerson on the cheap and since he's a lefty sure he would put up monster numbers in Safeco. You've got all those Dave Valle "professionals" in Vidro, Sexson, Ibanez in all the key spots in your lineup.

Can't complain now, you got what you wanted.

That 88 win team was the Enron of major league baseball. It really pumped you up and made you believe it was on the verge of greatness. Like a giddy stockholder with dollar signs rolling in your eyes, you took Howie's bait and stuck your first place prediction out there.

But I can't believe you've learned your lesson by making that statement above. You want Bill Bavasi to do exactly what he did to build this colossal failure in the first place. Repeat the failure, and if you fail again, don't change, don't admit that the method is flawed, just repeat it time and time again.

When will you learn that the method is flawed?

When will you learn that when people get old, their physical talent diminishes? I see your picture on this blog, and you are a young man. I understand you haven't reached that age where you wake up one day and while you can still perform physically, it just isn't the same as when you were in your mid 20's.

And when will you learn that you can't trade out of desperation? Bavasi keeps doing this and trading away good talent to build around but in doing so creates problems in other areas of this team. Do you want to know another problem he will create in the near future as a result of the Bedard trade? Centerfield. Goof centerfield prospects don't grow like weeds. If Ichiro falls off a cliff, which I hope he doesn't, who do we have to replace him in center with Jones gone? That will be one of the next areas we will be dealing with in the next couple of years.

Geoff,
Right on with the post. Especially the line about the Mariners acting as if they don't have to answer to anyone. The absentee ownership is a real problem. The Johjima contract was beyond belief. And this team clearly doesn't like each other or like playing together. They also don't seem to have any pride. Other than that, things look good. At least the blog is a winner.

Blow this team up and you have a line up for the remainder of this season and perhaps next season that looks like this.

Ichiro cf
Reed lf
Clement c
Balentien rf
Lahair 1b
Triunfel 3b
Bloomquist 2b
somebody from trade at ss
somebody from trade at dh

Wow, great rant/blog Geoff.

This is why it's time to give up on this organization for years.

I quote from an article on this site:
"

Bavasi, however, was adamant that the Mariners, despite being 18 games under .500 and 15 ½ games out of first place, are not prepared to give up on the season and look toward 2009.

"That's going to be a long time," he said. "That's going to be quite a while. Because we're not giving in. It's going to be real tough for us to give in. If we give in, it will be at the last minute, I'll tell you that."

"

The last minute. The guy is an idiot. He needs to be the first to go. Yesterday!

Boy and I love this comment in a CNNSI article:

"On Wednesday afternoon, after Seattle's 20th loss in 27 games, Bavasi ordered each of the 25 players to sit at his locker to be held publicly accountable for his performance."

That's right children. Go stand in the corner for 10 minutes and realize what bad boys you've been. Oh my God this is like watching a Monty Python show.

Bavasi, however, was adamant that the Mariners, despite being 18 games under .500 and 15 ½ games out of first place, are not prepared to give up on the season and look toward 2009.

"That's going to be a long time," he said. "That's going to be quite a while. Because we're not giving in. It's going to be real tough for us to give in. If we give in, it will be at the last minute, I'll tell you that."

Great catch, nature.

This is EXACTLY why it sucks being a Mariners fan. Our GM is incredibly incompetent.

Don't look now, but Jose Lopez is le