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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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June 11, 2008 1:04 PM

Morrow to the rescue; Putz has sore elbow

Posted by Geoff Baker

J.J. Putz walked the leadoff batter in the ninth, then got to 1-2 in the count on Vernon Wells before the training staff jogged out to the mound. Putz appeared to slightly favor his elbow (he does, see update below). Brandon Morrow came on from the bullpen, the count ran full on Wells and then the reliever blew him away with 97 mph heat.

Caught Matt Stairs looking at a 96 mph fastball for out No. 2.

Lyle Overbay then drove one to the warning track in left, but Raul Ibanez hauled it in. Tight-collar time there, but the M's and Morrow hold on for a 2-1 win. Great outing by Felix Hernandez.

OK, I'm now back from downstairs in the clubhouse and can tell you it was indeed elbow soreness that drove Putz from the game. Putz himself didn't have much to add, saying he'll wait until Friday -- after the elbow is examined by doctors on the team's off-day tomorrow.

Mariners manager John McLaren also wasn't going to speculate much about the immediate future.

"We're just going to have to play it day-by-day,'' he said. "It's his elbow.

"I saw him a couple of times grabbing his elbow and going like this,'' McLaren said, shaking his arm for emphasis. "It just sent a red flag up.''

McLaren pulled Felix Hernandez from the game because he'd told pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre after the seventh inning that his calf muscle was acting up again. Hernandez pitched one more frame in the eighth and then was done.

"I didn't finish the game becaise of my leg,'' Hernandez said. "The seventh inning was long and my leg was getting tighter and tighter.''

So was Morrow's chest in the ninth as that opposite field fly ball by Overbay headed towards the fence.

"I thought that was gone for 98 percent of the flight of the ball,'' Morrow said. "I thought Raul (Ibanez) was just going to watch it go over the fence.''

Instead, Morrow had his first career save. Could get a few more before the month is done. Putz hasn't looked right for a while. His command has been off and was off again today when he walked the leadoff batter. His elbow was "barking" and he came out. He doesn't know if this is similar to what plagued him in spring training of 2007. Like I said, he'll wait and see.

For those of you wondering why Willie Bloomquist was batting second today, it's becasue the team wanted Jose Lopez to hit fifth. He's been their most productive guy for a while now and Adrian Beltre was supposed to get a full day off to rest. So, it wasn't because Bloomquist is a great No. 2 hitter. It's because the team needed a No. 5 guy and their options were limited. Hope that helps.


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Posted by $12 million sucker

12:13 PM, Jun 11, 2008

The passive aggressive stats geeks strike again with their superior insight into the game. Let's applaud their care and goodwill arguments, certainly no one can fault Adrian Beltre, his weak performance to date is just a matter of bad luck, all is well and we need to recognize his superior hitting skills. Lets get eight more Beltre's, perhaps we could clone one for every offensive position, then we will have a superior team. Just instruct them to "hit 'em where they ain't." Surely we would be a championship team with such a lineup. Lets hope no one is beating down our door to acquire Adrian Beltre, he is not the problem but the solution to winning in Seattle.

Posted by Karr

12:14 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Break up the dynasty! It's a .500 roadtrip!

Posted by Holy Cow!

12:15 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Brandon Morrow has some STUFF!! Will he be our new closer??

Nice Catch Raul!

Posted by Putzless

12:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Let's hope Putz is not hurt, we need him well enough for trade bait at the deadline.

Posted by agrinaker

12:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I am pleased with the 3-3 road trip for this team, they need to go out and win 5 of 6 at home coming up. Show the fans they still care.

Posted by AtomicGarden

12:17 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Dear John McLaren,

I'm sure you're impressed with Brandon Morrow getting the all important save. Please do not consider making him our full time closer, and please begin the transistion to make him a starter. Whether it's in the bigs or in AAA, please.

Thank you,
AtomicGarden

Posted by ~MARINER 4 LIFE~

12:18 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I think Atlanta is a prime place to deposit some of the crappy SP we have sitting around. They need 2, lets give 'em Washburn and Batista....

Posted by Ziasudra

12:18 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Sign Fields in a hurry!

Posted by EricD

12:19 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Good game. Felix's perseverence rewarded with a clutch hit.

7 walks.

That said, I don't know about you all, but if I see one more of those Dodge commercials selling gas, I am going to have some gas.

Posted by drake

12:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Dave Sims on Felix: "That's why they pay him the big bucks"

Which is pretty funny considering this year Felix only makes $540,000 (Bedard - $7mil, Silva - $8.5mil, Batista-$9.5mil, Washburn $9.85mil)

Posted by Adam

12:25 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Would anyone bashing the "stat geeks" care to solve this little problem with their theory:


The main critcism I've seen of Beltre is that he's undisciplined and swings at bad pitches. However, Beltre is hitting more LDs, walking more, making more contact, and swinging at fewer balls out of the strike zone than the previous two seasons.

Nevertheless, his OPS is 70 points lower than the previous two seasons.

So why is Beltre performing worse than before, even though he's performing better in the areas that you "experts"* have identified as his trouble spots?


We are waiting.

* Note - an expert is anyone who played baseball through high school. Hey!! That makes me an expert!! Yay!

Posted by Samurai I Am Awry

12:25 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I think it would be great if Putz was hurt - that way he will not be able to trot out and give up save after save diminishing his trade value - if he is on the shelf he A) cant lose us any games B) put an excalmation point on his One Hit Wonder season of 2007

Awesome road trip guys - average of, what, 2 runs per game? Awesome.

Posted by Jonathan

12:28 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Eh, Morrow might be a good starter but we know he's a nasty reliever. I remember Rafael Soriano had some starting potential and great heat but a similar problem limited pitches.

Is a #3 starter more valuable then a setup man - heck yes, a potentially dominant closer? I'm not sure.

A #3 gives you maybe 20 quality starts a year, a dominant closer saves you 40 or so games. Just something to think about.

Of all the mis-management this year, Morrow in the pen is one of my least concerns.

Posted by C-Boyd

12:28 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"JJ Putz one hit wonder"

Well, it was two good years as closer. 06 and 07. And 06 he was really lights out to boot wit ha sub .500 team

Posted by Capo

12:29 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I can't believe anyone would wish an injury on someone.......thats no class.

Lets hope JJ is okay, and its nothing more than some tightness or soreness.......I'm thinking its much more though, as JJ hasn't looked right the entire season.

Great win, and lets not take a .500 trip for granted....its an improvement over what we've seen. the lineup has to be addressed though....we can't expect to win 2-1 every game.....we need to start consistently putting up 4-5 runs a game.

Posted by Jack

12:30 PM, Jun 11, 2008

LOL at $12 million sucker calling stats geeks passive-aggressive while writing in the most passive-aggressive tone possible.

Posted by nononscense

12:31 PM, Jun 11, 2008

JJ Putz has a blown elbow! Probably out for the year. This is a big blow to our team.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

12:32 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Good win today with solid pitching by Felix and Morrow. Putz looks like he should be shut down indefinitely and hopefully the team will sign Fields to setup Morrow for the next several weeks. Cairo makes an impact when he comes into the game as he is a smart player - the walk he drew put BJ Ryan on tilt and helped setup the go-ahead run. For 2009, I would keep Cairo over South Kitsap Willie any day of the week and the team would probably save a few $ also. Team reportedly will be getting several million $ less in their new radio contract and this will definitely get the attention of our invisible owner - maybe he will finally mandate some FO changes.

Posted by Capo

12:34 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Adam., Keep throwing the same tired argument out there, keep twisting words and using sarcasm to "make you point".......better head back over to the USSM, Dave and Derek need your slurping to pump their egos a little bit.

note: No one said a person is an EXPERT if the played through high school, but I honestly dismiss anyone who didn't even play the game at that lelvel....that doesn't mean you aren't a fan....it just means you really don't know WTF you are talking about.

Posted by Capo

12:35 PM, Jun 11, 2008

my guess....JJ has a strain ulnar collateral ligament, and will go on the DL....just my guess.

Posted by AtomicGarden

12:36 PM, Jun 11, 2008

$12 million sucker: "Lets get eight more Beltre's, perhaps we clone one for every posistion"

Mr. Sucker, I would love a team that fielded 9 Adrian Beltre's. They'd be like the Mariners right now, except with awesome defense. If you assume that the cloned Beltre's would be as good at their new posistions defensively as original Beltre is at 3B, we would be awesome. Especially with our staff (two aces and three guys who suck and need a great defense to make them look respectable)

But seriously if you replace our entire defense with someone like Beltre... we would absolutely win many mores game this season, even if all of them had the same stat line Beltre has today. I mean, if you look at the Mariners their team OBP is .305 (Beltre .299 - not a huge difference). Team slugging is .376 (Beltre is .420 - upgrade!). I know your comment was a joke/troll but I would absolutely take 9 Beltre's versus our current team :)

The defense alone would probabaly give us a net gain in runs allowed of at least +20, at most +50. Right now our team has given up around -30 runs from our defense (give or take a handful of runs).

Posted by Griffey24

12:37 PM, Jun 11, 2008

From the previous thread...
I am so sick of the attitude, "if you didn't play, you don't know the game". What a bunch of garbage. I'll admit I wouldn't be a great baseball coach, but to suggest that I don't understand the game because I stopped playing when I was 13 is ludicrous.
This is why there are so many bad broadcasters in sports, network execs assume that ballplayers always make great analysts (having said that, I really do like Blowers' insight...THAT'S what I want from a player, details about how a player or coach might be thinking during a game)

Posted by Nat

12:37 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Glad to see Felix get a well-deserved win! He stayed within himself as Stottlemyre has surely been talking to him about.

AND I hope that Putz is okay. I wish him good health whether he stays with the Ms as a closer or gets traded in this debacle called a Mariner season. Hate to see "fans" wishing him ill-health.

Posted by C-Boyd

12:37 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I think Willie Bloomquist's career may have ended today....

Clement, your time is here again. Get'er done.

Posted by Bonzai

12:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Samurai - You can't trade someone on the disabled list. Lets hope Putz is not so badly injured that he goes on the DL - trade him please.

Posted by Capo

12:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

AtomicGarden,
Agreed.....Beltre is a monster with the leather, and having 9 guys who fielded their position as well as he plays 3B would have this team 10 games better than they are now......defense can either make pitchers look very good, or very bad.

Posted by Jack

12:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I played baseball in high school and it didn't do anything to help me understand the sport or talk about baseball in a constructive way. What you see is pretty much what you get.

I do know how bad it feels to strike out swinging though.

Posted by drake

12:41 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I'm curious... at what level of competitive play does one have to achieve to avoid being dismissed?

Posted by Cynical Optimist

12:41 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Can anybody tell me if this has been mentioned before? What about Edgar Martinez as a hitting coach and Jay Buhner as a bench coach. If they were williing to do it, they could actually help this team next year.

Posted by Capo

12:42 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Griffey24....any credibility you had was just lost "I like Blowers' insight..."....Blowers is the biggest idiot this side of John Kruk.

Sorry, I stand by the statement about experience......I'm not saying you don't understand the game.....experience matters........Thats not to say there aren't players who understand the game any better, or that players make good announcers.....thats a completely different argument, and not relevant to this discussion.

Posted by Griffey24

12:42 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Capo, why don't you enlighten us with your playing career? I mean, since you obviously played through High School, you MUST know WTF you're talking about. Because playing HS ball means you could have been a big-leaguer.
So let's have it. Why don't you tell all us non-experts why playing High School ball makes you more qualified to talk about baseball than the rest of us? Educate us, as I would really like to be in that elite group of people considered to know baseball (since I've followed it my entire life and am only now realizing I don't know WTF I'm talking about).

Posted by Mike

12:45 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"I honestly dismiss anyone who didn't even play the game at that lelvel....that doesn't mean you aren't a fan....it just means you really don't know WTF you are talking about."

"my guess....JJ has a strain ulnar collateral ligament, and will go on the DL....just my guess."

So Capo, are you a doctor and a baseball player, or just irony-challenged?

Posted by Capo

12:45 PM, Jun 11, 2008

LOL.....here we go.....

I would argue that you at least need to have played High School baseball to truly "understand the game"...to me, thats the first real step in competitive baseball......where winning starts to outpace learning for the most part.

You guys sound like the friggin Holiday Inn commercials...."I never actually payed baseball, but i read the USSM while masturbating to Moneyball".

Posted by Capo

12:47 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Actually, I'm retired, and I did play baseball....as to the injury....you might have missed the "guess" part, which I put twice just to emphasize.......read much asshat?

Posted by Griffey24

12:47 PM, Jun 11, 2008

BTW, Capo, I like Blowers' insight...that's my opinion. I don't care about credibility in this realm, as I'm not trying to argue Blowers is the best analyst out there.
Ironic that you have no respect for my opinion with regards to Blowers, when in the same sentence I was trying to argue that former players don't usually make the best analysts.

Posted by Pete

12:47 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Felix against Detroit, Boston and Toronto.

21 IP, 0 ER, 20 K

He's now third in the AL in ERA, second in IP, and third in strikeouts.

Gaw, Felix just doesn't have the maturity or mental fortitude to be an ace.

Posted by Strasburg In 2009

12:49 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Joe Morgan is all I need to show that playing baseball (and being one of the best at his position) doesn't make one qualified to actually comment on the game.

Posted by macdoubter

12:50 PM, Jun 11, 2008


I think Willie Bloomquist's career may have ended today....

No, not at all. Most likey it's just begun. McLaren will remember we won a game on the day Willie was in the #2 position!

Posted by Full Count

12:50 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Do the Mariners have any hope of keeping Hernandez, When his deal is up this guy will be tops in AL and will it be another AROD deal, thanks but no thanks, see ya?

Posted by Capo

12:50 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Joe Morgan is a great example......arguably the worst announcer in sports

Posted by AtomicGarden

12:53 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I like Blowers, too. I actually disagree with almost everything he says when he's analyzing the team, but he has a soothing voice and I was a fan of him when he was a player. Although he was such a slower starter, I always hated him for the first half of the season before he'd catch fire.

I think the weirdest thing to me, this season, is Dave Sims. I hated that guy with almost a passion until recently. Now I really like him and think he is awesome. I don't know if he's changed, or if I have... but I'm a fan.

Posted by bammy

12:53 PM, Jun 11, 2008

haha Capo that was pretty good. I used to enjoy USSM before it became more and more of a infantile soapbox/sandbox for the lesser skilled contributer. This blog is great Thanks Geoff.

Posted by Griffey24

12:53 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Since Capo has yet to enlighten us on how playing HS ball makes one begin to "truly understand the game", perhaps a better approach is this:

Why not ask the board a question you believe anyone who hasn't played HS ball would be unable to answer? I want to know what kind of answers I'll arrive at when I "truly understand the game".

Posted by Faceplant

12:54 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Thats not to say there aren't players who understand the game any better, or that players make good announcers.....thats a completely different argument, and not relevant to this discussion."

So the argument that serves to refute your argument that experience makes you more qualified to discuss baseball "is not relevant to this discussion".

Joe Morgan is a hall of famer. Joe Morgan would be outmanaged by a five year old.

On the flip side Theo Epstein never played professional ball. He never even played college ball. He only built a world series championship team.

Experience does not equal knowledge. It doesn't make you any more or less qualified to talk about baseball.

Posted by Mike

12:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Joe Morgan is a great example......arguably the worst announcer in sports"

Wha...? But you said....

Banging head on table. Fortunately I did this in high school so I know what I'm doing.

Posted by Nat

12:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

So, Capo, to extrapolate on your standards for baseball expertise, regarding what's wrong with JJ- I gotta assume then that you are at least a medical student, if not an intern, to be speculating on his precise injury. Right?

LOL. More than likely you're just full of yourself and begging for attention.

Posted by macdoubter

12:56 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Full count, imagine Felix's numbers in a Red Sox uniform pitching half his games at Fenway...and with an offense that doesn't include a Willie, a Richie or a Kenji!

Posted by Capo

12:58 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I still read the USSM on a regular basis......they do come up with some good stuff....I just stay out of the comments section though......I don't have a lot of respect for the way they treat dissenting opinions there.

Who are your guys' 3 favorite announcers? The three worst? since this brought up a good topic....

Good
Vin Scully
Dave Neihaus
Bob Ueker

Bad
Rex Hudler
Joe Morgan
Ken Harrelson

Posted by Griffey24

1:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Good announcers:
1. Vin Scully (I'm put in a trance when I listen)
2. Dave Niehaus (99% of all games I've ever listened to)
3. Uecker and Jon Miller (I love the sense of humor...and I like Morgan teamed with Milller because they play off of each other so well)

Bad:
Dave Sims
Ron Fairly

Putting anyone else in the bad category is just mean.

Posted by Capo

1:02 PM, Jun 11, 2008

LOL, here we go!!!!! Typical stat geek argument and bashing.......have fun guys....I've said my piece and stand by it......you guys can carry on, because they let you do that here, unlike your normal site.

again with distortion and simply ignoring common sense.....I never said players make good announcers, you can be a good player without being good at managing (Ted Williams, Babe Ruth), or announcing......but hey, lets ignore anything that you can't twist into your point.

Posted by Griffey24

1:05 PM, Jun 11, 2008

So what does my list of good/bad announcers have to do with "truly understanding the game"?

Come on Capo, you changed the subject. I still want a question you don't think I (or others) can answer.

Posted by Capo

1:05 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"On the flip side Theo Epstein never played professional ball. He never even played college ball. He only built a world series championship team."

With almost $200 million.....give anyone but the Mess or Mariners $100....yes, even a chimp....and he could field a contender

Posted by Affirmative Action

1:07 PM, Jun 11, 2008

The only reason Dave Sims has a job with the Mariners is because I hired him.

Posted by David Gee

1:07 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Isn't this blog about Morrow? I can't believe that idiot MacLaren took Felix out after eight today, unless he was gassed like he was in Baltimore. One big problem with the modern game is the "save". So many managers, in particular the lousy ones, are slaves to that statistic. Oh, we're up by three or less in the ninth, so I have to put in my closer no matter what! And of course not only was JJ about to blow the game but he got hurt. Morrow totally bailed Mac out today.

Posted by Mike

1:12 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Wow---From unbalanced to racist. Time to check out.

Posted by Corey Miller

1:13 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Some of the hostility here makes me think you all need a little time out of the office...maybe go to Safeco and watch a game...go the beach...something.

Neither side of the stats argument will ever give in to the other. There is too much disbelief in the other side's argument.

So instead of firing virtual shots across the bow at eachother why don't you just submit your inputs and move forward.

Posted by drake

1:14 PM, Jun 11, 2008

David - Geoff answers that question in the post:
McLaren pulled Felix Hernandez from the game because he'd told pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre after the seventh inning that his calf muscle was acting up again. Hernandez pitched one more frame in the eighth and then was done.

Posted by Capo

1:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Felix looked a bit tired....no point in having him go back out there and possibly lose the game.

To me, JJ hasn't been right all season, I hope its nothing serious.....but with our luck, you never know.

Morrow can close, he has the stuff, and i think the closer role is actually perfect for him..

As to the rest of the argument Griffey, its just time to move on....i'm not going to change my mind, and you aren't going to change yours....arguing is just going to irritate others and chase people off.....so lets agree to disagree about baseball knowledge.

Posted by Faceplant

1:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"With almost $200 million.....give anyone but the Mess or Mariners $100....yes, even a chimp....and he could field a contender"

So how are the Yankee's and Tigers doing? Theo Epstein built a winner because he's good at his job. He built a winner because he DOES know WTF he's talking about.


"I never said players make good announcers, you can be a good player without being good at managing (Ted Williams, Babe Ruth), or announcing......but hey, lets ignore anything that you can't twist into your point."

No, you just said people who didn't play don't know "WTF they are talking about". Some might think that would imply that those who did play are the only people who know WTF they are talking about. Which is demonstrably, and provably not true.

"LOL, here we go!!!!! Typical stat geek argument and bashing"

You make arrogant statements that you can't back up, and we are the ones bashing you? Spare me.

Posted by Cynical Optimist

1:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Now that they're coming home they better put Clement back up. There are no excuses not to.

Posted by PayClayBennett

1:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

For Capo on the last entry -

Capo - bro - STFU - please. You are so far off the path you appear ignorant. Seriously - stick with the subject and quit riding ass about who knows what. A guy's high school baseball career does not determine his knowledge of the game - whether your panties are tied in a knot about it or not.

Take your SABER and stuff it somewhere too - if SABER meant jack, this team would have performed at the same level as last year. This team is beyond stats, metrics and scoring apparently. If Felix didn't pitch today, they would have lost. Mac knows nothing about how to manage his club - he proves it daily. Putz has been hurt all year and once he became the MAN, he moved on to the DL - for the second time. His career as a closer is probably done, hope he enjoyed making the commercials and getting a promo train named after him.

I don't know how many runs they scored in Toronto, but I'm pretty sure I can count them on one hand and I have a standard set of 5 fingers. It's pitiful to watch a MLB team hit likes these pansies do. Firing Pentland was a stellar move (snickering) and I only wish Lincoln would step up and dismiss Bavasi the same way.

Until anything happens up the ladder, this team will luck out and win 2 out of every 10 scoring only a couple of runs....but they will hit 30-under .500 soon.

Can't polish a turd as grandpa always told me...and the M's are a turd.

Posted by kweloper

1:19 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Mariner attendance through the years.

[2001] 3,507,326
[2002] 3,542,938
[2003] 3,268,509
[2004] 2,940,731
[2005] 2,689,529
[2006] 2,480,717
[2007] 2,672,409
[2008 Projected] 2,287,599

Baghead Day July 13th. Sit down and be proud!

Posted by jro

1:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Commenting on *any* Mariners announcer's analysis is a waste of time. They're essentially controlled by the Mariners. Any comment they make that's out-of-bounds is going to get them off-screen, so they have to pussy-foot around. Expecting them to give honest, critical assessments of the Mariners would be like expecting honest, critical assessment of the Bush administration by his spokesperson. Ain't gonna happen.

Posted by Capo

1:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Like I said, lets just agree to disagree and move on.....you guys from the USSM like to selectively pick your facts and numbers....why stop now.......take a sentence or few words out of a complete paragraph and make it the focal point...

As I said, I disagree with you, you disagree with me....time to move on to something else.......but you can't, so have fun.

Posted by David Gee

1:22 PM, Jun 11, 2008

So this team sucks and they're still going to draw over two million. Man, I remember the good ol' guys when if you sucked you couldn't draw half a million.

Posted by David Gee

1:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I meant days, not guys...where the hell is the delete button?

Posted by Capo

1:27 PM, Jun 11, 2008

ClayBennet......pal you can go polish something else.....My panties aren't in a bunch, i don't wear any!!!!

I honestly believe to get a good understanding of the game, you need to have played it....i used High School as a level i consider relevant......nothing more.....does that mean a GM has to have played professional baseball? No, i never said that. does it mean you can't be a good announcer? no, announcer really just have sheets and sheets of data and notes about players, and talk to insiders of the game for their content.....much like Geoff and other writers......announcers are simply good talkers......writers are simply good writers....thats simply my point.
Just about every arument over the last couple of days, the SABER guys have taken things out of context, and made everything a huge argument

Posted by David Gee

1:34 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I kinda agree and disagree. If you played the game to some level you should be knowledgable. Of course, the question is, did you play it WELL? Or did you play it kind of like Jeremy Reed does. Now, if you've never played the game but are smart and have keen powers of observation, you can be more knowledgable than someone who has played the game.

Posted by Bork

1:35 PM, Jun 11, 2008

The first thing that popped into my mind was that it might actually turn out to be a better thing if Putz is injured. I'm so sick of dreading him coming in and spoiling the game, because it's seems that's all he does lately. He's our closer. Having him come in is supposed to be a good thing, and everyone is supposed to be excited because he's supposed to shut the game down. Granted, Putz is probably having a hard time getting into a rhythm because he isn't being presented with as many save opportunities, but he's seemed off from the start of the season. He hasn't been preforming nearly as well as he has in previous season. Is he past his prime or what? Just taking longer to get into the swing of things? I know he had arm problems at the beginning of the season, do you think that's what's been bothering him this whole time?

Also, knock off the cheap shots at one another. It's getting really old reading the comments hoping to find people to talk about baseball with only to find people who would be really nice to talk about baseball with, but are way too busy taking cheap shots at one another and being overly sarcastic all for the sake of being the most right.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

1:35 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I like Morrow in the closer role now that he has learned to throw strikes with his fastball and he'll learn that he also has to use his offspeed pitches better. He has the potential to be as effective as Papelbon. Shelf life for closers is limited and JJ is on the wrong side of 30 now - he definitely has lost velocity and control within the strike zone which is a recipe for closer disaster. We need sp help and maybe a trade of Bedard (by a GM who can evaluate talent) can net us a couple of young arms with bright futures. Not too early to look ahead to the 2009 draft and if we hold our present position, Stephen Strasburg of SD State will be draft eligible and could move into our rotation in 2010 along with Aumont.

Posted by BrianL

1:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Wooo I played baseball through my freshman year in college! I must be some sort of savant or something.

PayClayBennett- Actually, the sabermetric crowd argued that the team over performed last season and were in line to regress to a .500ish team. A few people (Jeff Sullivan and Derek Zumsteg notably) argued that things could go further south in a worst-case collapse scenario in which Richie Sexson, Jose Vidro, and whoever is in right field implode.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

1:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Mr. Capo, sir -

For those of you wondering why Willie Bloomquist was batting second today, it's becasue the team wanted Jose Lopez to hit fifth. ... the team needed a No. 5 guy and their options were limited.

Fits pretty well with the reasoning I'd put forth in the previous thread for why WFB batted 2nd (i.e. nowhere else to put him), though I hadn't factored where to put J-Lo in. But I don't have htis mysterious minimum level of real baseball experience, so you dismissed my theory outta hand and told me and Brian to go watch BSG. Which is not an entirely bad thing, since the season's starting to pick up a bit now that they're back to Cylons again after all that Baltar nonsense...

Ahem. Anyway.

The only reason people aren't dropping the "who's got knowledge, who's qualified to speak" bit with you is, you thought it was alright to dismiss people's opinions by saying "you sound like someone who's never played the game, go do something else"... but when people ask you about your background, what experience you have, how you fit your own criteria, you say "ah, let's agree to disagree".

It smacks of dishing it out but not taking it. You wanted to set a certain bar for conversation and credible opinions, and then didn't want to get into what that bar was or how you met it yourself. You had a flimsy argument, and got called on it.

If that discussion continues beyond your next post, or into the next thread, that's the core reason. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's, but you don't seem to be grasping why people are harping on this.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

1:43 PM, Jun 11, 2008

...and of course, as I post that, you spell out what you meant 3 posts above. yay for conversations in a blog in semi-real-time...

Posted by David Gee

1:44 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I think you all should just listen to me in quiet awe and leave it at that. I am a master of knowledge in baseball, football, basketball and hockeyball.

Posted by C-Boyd

1:46 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I'm just happy we still have Morrow and haven't traded him for some has-been.

Want to hear a move I shutter, that only two GMs would make?

Steve Phillips traded Scott Kazmir to the Rays for Victor Zambrano.

I wish that just ONE time, somebody on ESPN would say "Steve, didn't you trade Kazmir for Victor Zambrano??"


Only Phillips and/or Bavasi would make that move.

(Kazmir now has 4 perfect innings today against the Angels thus far)

Posted by Chris from Bothell

1:46 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Hey Geoff - Possibility of Putz to DL and Clement back up? Morrow seems able to close now, and RAD has certainly earned more 7th/8th inning time (since it seems obvious that Mac and company are loathe to bump Washburn or Batista to have RAD start...).

Posted by David Gee

1:48 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Hell yes bring Clement up. Season's over. Time for Clement to learn to hit big league pitching.

Posted by BrianL

1:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Chris from Bothell - You know, I'd actually like to see Dickey take Miguel Batista's start in the rotation for a little while. Miguel hasn't had any stuff as a starter, but (small sample size warning) he seemed to have better velocity coming out of the bullpen based on an initial glance at his PitchF/X data.

Posted by kranky

1:58 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Honestly, you guys are way off on Joe Morgan. He's one of the best commentators doing baseball. Dave Sims, on the other hand, is one of the worst.

I say bring back Dave Henderson, who has his own issues but is way, way better than Sims.

Posted by Mike

2:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I think Morgan sounds great. I only have a problem when I listen to his actual words.

Posted by Sounders

2:01 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Mac's new strategy,and the M's new slogan:

"Wingin it with Willie B!"

Posted by Chris from Bothell

2:01 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Brian - Oh, I'd like to see RAD take Batista's start too. I've suggested before that Washburn should have Batista as his personal reliever, to go with Burke his personal catcher. :) I was just trying to go with what I thought Mac would be more likely to do, not what I'd want to see.

Posted by terry AT

2:02 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Say McLaren!
Kitsap Willie Boombust is not a top half of the order hitter, ever!
Kenji is not a bunter! Cairo can lay down a bunt if you need one!
Get a clue!

Posted by Sounders

2:03 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Joe Morgan a great announcer? Please. Professional idiot, maybe.

Posted by Mango madness snapple

2:11 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Ryan Divish ,TNT

"So as of this morning, Clement is hitting .364 with 17 doubles, 14 homers, 43 RBI, 33 walks, an OBP of .484, a slugging of .747 and an OPS of 1.231, in comparison if you add the OPS of Richie Sexson .610 and Jose Vidro .663, you get 1.273."

Posted by pheel

2:14 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I'm so happy we have a #2 hitter hitting .150 and striking out 4 times!!! That's exactly what we need in the two hole. Yippee - go get 'em boys!!

Posted by Fortified Milk

2:17 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Why has Willie Bloomquist been in the bigs for like 6 years, and yet accomplished next ot nothing? should he be like a jounreyman now?

Posted by Novice

2:19 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Everyone has there rough days, Willie actually had a decent onew though. Lets not ignore the fact that he mentally hung tough throughout the game, and led his team to a gritty win. Bloomquist is a seasoned vet, he no doubt will come back and have a big game.

Posted by Capo

2:20 PM, Jun 11, 2008

LOL....I had a flimsy argument and got called on it!!!!! Dude, I found your perfect site...its called willpower.org....I'm pretty sure thats you, but since I'm no expert on it I can't say for sure.

i have said that i played, ( a couple years in independent leagues after college)......and I said nothing about what qualifies anyone as an expert......Everyone can be a fan, but when we have people that barely played organized baseball, their argument carries little credibility to me.......but again, twist words to make your point.

Moving right along, I agree....there are people that payed the game who know as little about the game, strategy, etc as some of the people who post here (no offense intended).....usually its the guys who have a huge amount of talent and refuse to work at it.....the guys who usually end up being great baseball people are the guys like Maddux and Moyer, who get by on marginal talent and work ethic/studying the game.


Posted by Free clement

2:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

FREE CLEMENT!

Posted by Capo

2:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

My favorite Joe Morgan quote "Good hitters typically have higher batting averages because they hit the ball in fair territory more often".

thats an honest to God quote from a ESPN telecast this season.

Posted by Get a Job CAPO

2:24 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Capo - GET A JOB

Posted by Steven Donegal

2:25 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Everyone here has been very tough on management, but we have to give them some credit here. That Lee Elia is one helluva of a pitching coach. Two great starts in Toronto. If he can just get Washburn and Batista settled down, maybe this season can be saved after all.

Posted by David Gee

2:26 PM, Jun 11, 2008

That TNT guy sounds like a moron. What do AAA stats have to do with major league stats? And doesn't he know that Clement busted the first time he was up this season? Of course we'll expect better next time, but what a stupid analysis from that guy.

Posted by haha

2:27 PM, Jun 11, 2008

hahaha Steven's an idiot! Lee Elia is our hitting coach. Stollemeyer?!?!? yeah hes out pitching coach.

Posted by Steven Donegal

2:29 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I'm really tired of Perlozzo undermining the Sherriff out in the bullpen. MAc has no control of the bullpen guys and now all we need is Perlozzo to come in public criticizing the mound becasue the bullpen was left by the Sherriff. lets lay off the FO

Posted by Marlon

2:30 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Actually David Gee, Clement is ripping the hell out of the ball down their at triple A and obviously found his swing back. 4 home runs in 5 games. 8 since he has been sent back down. Ryan Divish is saying that he needs to be brought back up since our season is lost up here with a bunch of hacks playing everyday.

You are the moron.

Posted by RBC

2:31 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Im going to have to vote Steven Donegal the biggest doofus on this blog.

Posted by Steven Donegal

2:35 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Any why isn't Ichiro ( I like to call him Ichi-rulez! ) batting clean-up? He is obviously our best power hitter.

Posted by Novice

2:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

No, Bloomquist is

Posted by David Gee

2:39 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Marlon, you're not fit to rub the kiwi on my boots, so don't even dare. Clement was ripping the ball in AAA before they brought him up the first time this season, and he stunk it up here. Will he do better this time? Maybe. Hopefully. I seem to recall allowing for that. But just because you're ripping AAA pitching means you'll do the same in the major leagues. If you knew the game you'd know that. And you called someone a lot smarter than you a moron...which almost sounds like your name.

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

2:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

RBC: I support your vote. I think Steven must be a plant from Armstrong & Bonehead Bill with his plea to support the FO and blame the coaches.

Posted by David Gee

2:41 PM, Jun 11, 2008

The only thing that would have been better is if your name were Rufus and you called someone a doofus.

Posted by Kyle T.

2:44 PM, Jun 11, 2008

DAVID GEE-

Marlon is right. They sent Jeff down to get his swing back and have said he will be back once he gets that back. well now he definatly has it back. So its time for him to return to the majors. Marlon is right DAVID GEE is a MORON!

Posted by Steven Donegal

2:47 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Easy guys. I love the Mariners and I think we need to give them some slack. The front office is doing everything they can and are working sooo hard to get this team on track. They work their tails off! Bill Bavasi LOVES the Mariners and all he wants is for his favorite team to do good. We can all be a little rude sometimes but now we need to show them some support. Bring posters to the games and tell them how much we are rooting for them! Show some spirit!

Posted by David Gee

2:52 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Kyle, aka 14 year old boy who can rub his chest and pat himself on the back with the same hand, I hope Clement comes up here and hits. But like I said, he was ripping AAA before he came up here the first time. So we'll see. Now go put on some Clearasil.

Posted by David Gee

2:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Oh, and Marlon, once you're done delivering newspapers, if you want to get back into this feel free to. Sorry, but have to teach these yunguns that just because someone from TNT says something (unless it's Charles Barkley), you can't treat it like the word of God.

Posted by Novice

2:59 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Willie had a decent onew. Do not ignore the fact that he mentally hung tough throughout the game, and led his team to a gritty win. Bloomquist is a seasoned vet, he no doubt will come back and have a big game on friday.

Posted by Adam

3:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

If Putz is hurt for any extended period of time, I say you still send Morrow down and start to make him a starter.

As the losses mounted, I felt that dealing Putz would be a good idea. There are several teams (Cleveleand, Tampa, Milwaukee) who are contenders but need a closer. Each has good prospects and would have made a good trade partner.

Now that Putz is hurt, his trade value is down; however I would not change anything with Morrow. Let's not forget that 2008 is a lost cause - keep pointing to 2009.

Posted by RBC

3:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

It appears that Novice is giving Steven Donegal a good run for his money at the #1 doofus spot

Posted by Benji

3:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

What heck does reporting someone do? They cant stop anyone from posting comments on here.

Posted by C-Boyd

3:05 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Seattle vs. Washington:

If it was Mon-Wed like the Marlins series, there'd be 40,000 fans combined.

HOWEVER... Friday is BOBBLEHEAD NIGHT!!! YAY!!!!!!! Start your eBay auctions now!

So that 40k will actually be at the Safe to see the worst lineup the NL has to offer!!

Posted by 11Records

3:08 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Angels are now up on the Rays. And they're 40-26, even though they've been scoring less than 4 runs a game almost every day the last few weeks.

Check this lineup:

R. Willits LF
M. Izturis SS
H. Kendrick 2B
V. Guerrero DH
T. Hunter CF
G. Matthews RF
C. Kotchman 1B
M. Napoli C
R. Quinlan 3B

The Mariners have players in LF, SS, CF and 3B that you wouldn't trade straight up for the Angels playing at those positions today Well, maybe Yuni for Maicer, but I don't think so. And, don't say you'd trade Ichiro for Torii Hunter, because you wouldn't.

Also - you can argue that Lopez is better than Kendrick. But, while Jose has better numbers this year, Kendrick is probably going to have the better career. Looking at the rest of the lineup, Gary Matthews is mediocre. Napoli is nothing special. Kotchman is very good and extremely disciplined, plus tremendous defensively, but he's not an All Star. And, Vlad is one of the 5 best players of his generation, but having a crap season. I mean, he only has 2 more RBI than Vidro...

So - talent wise, there is no gaping chasm between these clubs. Yet - they're crushing the M's in the standings. Just killing them. Which leads me to believe that it's because they use their talent better, and they put their players in the best position to help the team win. They exploit matchups. They substitute dependent upon situations... Basically, they THINK. I believe that alone accounts for at least 8 to 10 games in the standings.


Posted by C-Boyd

3:09 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Go Cougs


Will I get reported too?

Posted by Dave from the coast

3:10 PM, Jun 11, 2008

A win is a win, and the M's won today. Of course, you have to take into account who they played today. That said, it's nice when the M's win, but to win on a regular basis, they're gonna still have to get more than 2 runs a game...something they've been having a fairly rough time of lately.

Posted by Capo

3:10 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Yeah, thats pretty pathetic....reporting a post???!!!

I agree its tim to stop arguing and talk baseball....I've advocated that for awhile now, but you guys keep going, going, and going......so its my fault for linking your personal website Adam?

Seriously guys, i think that between the two different thoughtsa on the game and how its played, you'd think we could put together some good ideas and conversations.

Posted by Adam

3:11 PM, Jun 11, 2008

No this is nonsense. Idiocrity. If swear words and insults continue on this blog i will take the nessacary steps to ridding of you from this blog.

Posted by Superdestroyer I

3:13 PM, Jun 11, 2008

If any of you put on socks before your underwear, just to let you know, you have no credibility with me, you just don't know the game...

Posted by Top pick in 09 draft

3:15 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Good observation on how the Angels win by 11records. LAA is a team that puts so much pressure on opponents by using their team speed well. Their hitters don't give away outs by swinging away on balls outside of the strike zone unlike our favorite team. When the Angels fired Bavasi as GM after 2001, they gradually changed their philosophy from just waiting for the 3-run homer to playing small ball and we can see the results. Despite his working so hard, Bavasi needs to go asap if this team is to rebuild in time for 2010 contention.

Posted by R2D2

3:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Adam reminds me of a boyscout, except with a smaller weiner.

Posted by Fact Checker

3:17 PM, Jun 11, 2008

What heck does reporting someone do? They cant stop anyone from posting comments on here.

***********************************************************

I believe that they can ban IP addresses from posting, so he'd have to get a new ISP or post from a different computer

Posted by Adam

3:17 PM, Jun 11, 2008

The 3:13 Adam isn't me either.

Posted by David Gee

3:20 PM, Jun 11, 2008

11records, the Angels have a little more talent than you're giving them credit for (especially Kotchman), but otherwise the talent gap isn't that much. A couple of their pitchers (Saunders and Santana) are having career seasons, and Scioscia gets the most of all these guys. Man, I hate the Angels.

Posted by Adam

3:24 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Another thing with the Angels is their depth. They can bring Wood, Mathis, Aybar (currently injured), Matthews/Willits off the bench.

And their rotation is deeper.


The Angels are just a well-run organization and team. The Mariners are not.

Posted by Sounders

3:25 PM, Jun 11, 2008

11Records:

You've hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of teams around like The Angels. They just know how to construct a roster, minimize the weaknesses of the players they have and maximize strengths. They identify weak spots and address them, rather than hoping for 'bounce back' years from players clearly over the hill

That's Bavasi's responsibility. He and the people who hired him should be held 'accountable' and run out of town For the record that's the first time I've used the word accountable here.

Posted by Sounders

3:37 PM, Jun 11, 2008

As an entertainment product this blog blows the Mariners out of the water. But the back and forth bickering gets a little tiresome.

Posted by Geoff's sidekick

3:37 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Note to C-Boyd: Steve Phillips made some bad trades, but Kazmir wasn't his. Phillips was fired in June of 2003. The Kazmir trade was made in July of 2004. The culprit was actually Jim Duquette, Phillips' replacement, who was fired shortly thereafter.

Posted by Mad Adam

3:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Mad A - now that fits this meathead.

Posted by Capo

3:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Seriously, can we get back to talking about the M's? This has gone well past ridiculous at this point.

As to banning someone by IP address....its pretty easy to get another one, or simply use a Proxy.......not that I woul;d do something like that......nor would i use multiple user names like some......but thats just me.

Look, we disagree on knowledge of the game, and evaluating talent.....big deal......up until it turned into a traditionalist vs SABER argument there was no anoimosity.......but I've noticed that since someone posted somwething on the USSM, all the little stat guys have shown up and started a flamefest.....they have to do it here because its not tolerated on their site....

So lets let it go....if you don't like me or my opinion, ignore it, and I'll do likewise for postss I have issues with.

Posted by Marlon

3:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Sounds good to me Capo.

Posted by Novice

3:41 PM, Jun 11, 2008

lets all at least agree that Bloomquist should start on friday so he can redeem himself. one can only wonder the power that will be on display after an average preformance today.

Posted by Chopper

3:42 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I bet if the Mariners were winning like they were supposed to we would all be best friends instead of battling eachother every day.

Like the great Steven Donegal once said, "Show some spirit!"

Haha.

Posted by Capo

3:46 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I'm not a big Bloomquist fan, but I also don't think he has gotten a real fair chance to show what he is worth. He is a pretty good bench guy, plays decent defense at a lot of positions.....but i think what hurts us is not having a good bat off the bench, a guy like Greg Dobbs who doesn't necessarily play good defense, but can hit well.

I honestly think he could be a serviceable big league 2B, kind of a Brian Roberts lite.... .250-.250, no power, lots of SB....decent glove.

Posted by Novice

3:47 PM, Jun 11, 2008

no power? are we talking about the same Bloomquist capo?

Posted by fg

3:49 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Not to say that this would happen, but hypothetically

If the Mariners got back into the hunt and challenged but did not make it to the playoffs would you still say that team is misconsctucted?

Or

If it did make the playoffs?

By what metric would you say that the FO and the Coaches, players, etc-have succeeded?

I hear some say that the FO just wants 'playoff' calliber team which they inerpret as not a 'championship' caliber team-but it could be argued that it means to give a chance at getting the championship one has to be playoff caliber i.e. the Colts of last year, playoff abiliity, possible championship ability.

So, at what point would it take to make one satisfied they were successful? And, in turn, say they were wrong. I am curious. What if they lose a hundred games this year but make the world series next year-is the tenure of Bill Bavasi a success then? (this is just possibly the reverse of what the Rockies are about to, possibly, do)

Fg

Posted by Steven Donegal

4:05 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Wow, irony really doesn't translate well with this crowd. How many runs have the beloved Ms scored since the major coaching change? How many earned runs have the starters given up? Clearly Elia has had more impact on the pitchers than the hitters.

For those who don't understand the concept that correlation doesn't equal causation, that's a JOKE. Lighten up doofuses, it's only Mariners baseball.

Posted by Sounders

4:29 PM, Jun 11, 2008

fg:

There's no reason that with the resources they have the Mariners can't be like The Angels, competitive and contending every year.

They got rid of Bavasi and have done well since. We need to do the same. I suspect that their reason for hiring Bavasi, and giving him more money to spend than ever was to maintain the illusion of being competitive and just not have a huge dip like this year and hence keep people int he seats. That's why the panic now.

Posted by Dave Clapper

4:32 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Just about every arument over the last couple of days, the SABER guys have taken things out of context, and made everything a huge argument.

Huh. I'm pretty sure I haven't heard any of the SABR guys accusing you of masturbating over your high school yearbook.

Posted by PayClayBennett

4:34 PM, Jun 11, 2008

This blog is headed toward moderation - then you'll never read your own comments. The 5-year old Adam imposter is a prime example of how someone always ruins it for everyone else.

Posted by Capo

4:36 PM, Jun 11, 2008

and here we go with another USSM troll!!!!!

Funny, you guys can create multiple IDs and post crap from them, you guys can use sarcasm and wit....you guys distort posts to your benefit.....but I'm the bad guy here.....its almost comical.

Posted by Faceplant

4:39 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"I'm not a big Bloomquist fan, but I also don't think he has gotten a real fair chance to show what he is worth."

Willie Bloomquist has gotten several extended looks as a starter, and he has never hit. Ever. Bloomquist has never hit at any level. At 30 years old he almost certainly isn't going to get better.

Bloomquist sucks, and always has sucked at hitting. He's a decent defensive 2nd baseman, who doesn't hit enough to start.

Posted by Capo

4:43 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Several Extended Looks".......where? Spring Training?

Cuz I've missed ahnadful of games over the last 10 years, and never seen Willie get an extended look......he's gotten some decent ABs (in the 180-200 AB range), but as to extended and regular work, I'd disagree.

Posted by Adam

4:53 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Capo at 4:36 pm:

you guys distort posts to your benefit.....but I'm the bad guy here.....


What was it that you said in your now-deleted 2:30 pm post?

Posted by Adam

4:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

And could tell us what you said in your 12:45 pm post?


Thanks.

Posted by Capo

4:58 PM, Jun 11, 2008

See....just can't let it go, can you.....I haven't twisted or taken any of your comments out of context.....but I'm sure if you go back through the last 2 days posts we can find a half dozen posts where you have intentionally twisted others words to make your point.

I also find it funny that you guys have to run back over to the USSM for reassurance from them....and even funnier that DMZ has even come over here to post.

Posted by drake

4:59 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Capo... there are plenty of reasonable Mariners fans here who can easily see that several of your comments cross the line of civil debate.

Posted by Adam

5:09 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Aaaaaaaaand there were are.

Posted by Adam

5:09 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"we" are...

Posted by Faceplant

5:09 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Cuz I've missed ahnadful of games over the last 10 years, and never seen Willie get an extended look......he's gotten some decent ABs (in the 180-200 AB range), but as to extended and regular work, I'd disagree."

Between July 11th, and August 19th of 2003 Bloomquist started almost every game, and he didn't hit a lick.

And again, in 2005 from July 23rd to August 29th he started almost every game. At the end of that trial he was sporting a .622 OPS.

And from April 25th to about the end of may in 2006 he was starting on average about every other day.

Bloomquist hasn't been able to hit at any level he's been at (save long season A ball). He has over 1100 career AB's, and has had several different extended auditions. And he hasn't hit once.

Posted by Capo

5:13 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Big difference between playing EVERYDAY and "played several times", or "played every other day".....and for "not hitting once, he had a .260 career avg coming into this season.

The guy has a decent glove, hits .250-.260, and runs the bases well.......I didn't say he was the next Chase Utley, i did say he would be a Brian Roberts lite.

Posted by Mr. X

5:15 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Let's keep the "Mother" garbage out of here and just talk baseball. It's easy enough to argue an opinion without bringing family members into the conversation. Especially when one is right 99% of the time. I understand that USSM's "fellow travelers" can wear on your nerves a little, but let's not get carried away.

Posted by drake

5:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

But Faceplant, he's a sparkplug!!!

That's what Rizz tells me anyway...

Posted by Capo

5:16 PM, Jun 11, 2008

How do you "listen" to a post?

Look, a few of you are just being trolls at this point. It was one thing when we were disagreeing about Beltre and the whole luck thing.....but its gotten to the point where you guys are just being antagonistic......and you're damned right, I'll play the game.

I'm the one who has no fewer than 4 times said lets just agree to disagree, and asked we move on.......but every time, Adam, or Mike, or FacePlant seems to want to keep going......thats fine....keep going, i'm done with the issue.

Posted by Faceplant

5:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"The guy has a decent glove, hits .250-.260, and runs the bases well.......I didn't say he was the next Chase Utley, i did say he would be a Brian Roberts lite."

Bloomquist has a career line of .256/.312/.322. If we were to assume that Bloomquist would hit around his career averages that would make him the second worst hitting second baseman in the AL this year, and the fourth worst in MLB. If that's Brian Roberts lite, then I am Willie Bloomquist lite!

Bloomquist isn't a starter, and if he was he would be among the leagues worst second basemen.

I swear some of you live in a world where up is down, and black is white. Beltre is worthless, but Willie Bloomquist deserves a shot to start?

Posted by Geoff & Billy B.

5:25 PM, Jun 11, 2008


talent wise, there is no gaping chasm between (the Angels and Mariners). Yet - they're crushing the M's in the standings. Just killing them. Which leads me to believe that it's because they use their talent better, and they put their players in the best position to help the team win. They exploit matchups. They substitute dependent upon situations... Basically, they THINK. I believe that alone accounts for at least 8 to 10 games in the standings.

Hey, hold it right there, we know what you're implying. Just repeat after us: This has nothing to do with McLaren!

Posted by Faceplant

5:28 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"I'm the one who has no fewer than 4 times said lets just agree to disagree, and asked we move on.......but every time, Adam, or Mike, or FacePlant seems to want to keep going......thats fine....keep going, i'm done with the issue."

No, the problem is that you like to play the poor little victim of the mean statheads, and then say things like this,

"How is that twisting anything you said.....did I say your mother was a $5 whore when she is actually a $10 whore? No....I just said i pimp her......"

Then you whine some more about how mean the statheads, and ussmariner crowd are, and wonder why they just won't let it go.

Spare me. Don't incite people, and then whine about it when they don't let you get away with it.

Posted by Dave Clapper

5:36 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Briefly: capo, I don't think you know what the word "troll" means. One of us is posting under his real name. Guess which? Feel free to google me. I own up to my own words. If I understand your idea of what a troll is, it's someone who doesn't post that often. It doesn't, however, take into consideration how much a poster reads. By your logic, the season ticket fan who is relatively quiet at games is a troll, while the one screaming obscenities at the players, umps, etc., is the "real" fan. I assure you that I read here quite a bit. I rarely post here, but that has little to do with how much I read.

The reason I object to your comments has little to do with whether or not I agree with your viewpoint. I have a nine-year-old son who is becoming a Mariners fan, and likes to use the internet (which, yes, I supervise). I'd like for him to be able to go to a site run by a family-oriented newspaper. Does that seem unreasonable? I won't point him to Lookout Landing or to USS Mariner (and yes, I post in both of those places as well, and I'm not shy about my language in those places being more adult), because it's understood there that they cater to mature audiences. This, however, is supposed to be an all-ages site, to the best of my knowledge. And you, more than any other single poster, are disrespecting that.

Personally, I hope they DO move to a moderated system here.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

5:38 PM, Jun 11, 2008

11records - Kind of sounds like the Angels are the team many people thought the Ms would be at the start of the season (average hitting, decent speed, decent defense, "enough" pitching). Also kind of sounds like the Angels are playing the way McLaren supposedly wanted his team to play (running game, speed coming off of the bench, vets playing to their #s from years past).

Sigh.

Posted by Capo

5:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

No, to me a troll is not an infrequent poster.....to me a troll is a person who posts for no other reason than to get a rise out of people.......like these guys posting under 2-3 different names (childish).

If you are implying that I am, or would do that, then you are very mistaken. I'm sure you could point it out to Geoff, or whoever handles the blog, and they can check IP addresses......

Posted by Nat

5:53 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I see that someone opened the doors of the asylum and the inmaktes are running free. This blog is starting to reflect the general chaos of the Mariner organization.

And Capo, you just don't know when to shut up, do you? You've posted 28 times in this thread alone, by my count. What makes you think people are waiting with bated breath for your every thought? They're not. Get over yourself.

Posted by Nat

5:57 PM, Jun 11, 2008

That would be, I see that the INMATES are running free.

Posted by Capo

5:58 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"And Capo, you just don't know when to shut up, do you? You've posted 28 times in this thread alone, by my count. What makes you think people are waiting with bated breath for your every thought? They're not. Get over yourself."

I don't know when to shut up? I am the one who tried to get things back on topic and talk baseball, but a couple of you drones seem to not be able to do that without having the last word, or making snide comments....

I guess its okay to be an ass, as long as you are a stats guy.....anyone else is stuck on themselves......go count line drives or something

Posted by Faceplant

5:59 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"like these guys posting under 2-3 different names (childish)."

And who would be these guys? Or are you just accusing people of doing it, without any real proof they are? How very trollish of you.

Posted by Dave Clapper

6:04 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I apologize. You do know what it means. And you also just defined about 50% of your own posts.

Posted by Capo

6:11 PM, Jun 11, 2008

So now I'm a troll....huh....
I've been posting here for quite awhile without a single incident until I disagree with someone over Beltre yesterday......and as far as that goes, I was just told when confronting someone that they had me mistaken with someone else......whatever.

Yeah, I'm all for moderation.......as to the people posting under different names....take a look back over the posts (you've done a stellar job thus far), and look at some of the poster names.......I think you'll see what I'm talking about

Posted by Unbiased Observer

6:19 PM, Jun 11, 2008

I notice that Capo up above said that everyone should go back to talking about baseball, and then suddenly the "Adam" imposter disappears? The guy spends about 25 hrs in a 24 hr day on a Geoff blog?

Capo = the many Adam trolls

Posted by Capo

6:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

sorry, i post under one name Capo on this blog, Capper everywhere else.....

I have been posting here a long time without any problems until yesterday/today.......like i said, email Geoff and have him look into IPs or whatever......I stand by my opinions, unlike a few of you weasels.

Posted by Dave Clapper

6:27 PM, Jun 11, 2008

to me a troll is a person who posts for no other reason than to get a rise out of people

Would you, or would you not, say that you were trying to get a rise out of people (or at least one person) when commenting about another poster's mom, telling people to pleasure themselves to Moneyball, dismissing opinions of people if they didn't play baseball in HS, etc?

It's your definition. If your purpose was NOT to get a rise out of people with those comments, what was it? And if your purpose WAS to get a rise out of people, doesn't that, by your own definition, make you a troll?

Posted by Faceplant

6:29 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Struck a nerve there huh Derek?"

My name is actually Jeremy, not Derek. I've posted on this blog long before you showed up. I've posted under the same name since I first started last year. If you have proof I post under someone elses name I'd love to see it. If not, shut up.


"I also said I'm not a big Bloomquist fan.....but said he'd be decent, As to not hitting anywhere....he hit .281 in his minor league career....I wouldn't call that terrible......."

He has a career minor league OPS of .711. In the minors he showed no on base skills, and no ability to hit for power. Yes, that IS terrible.


"As to saying his stats make him the worst 2B in the AL....as you guys like to say....SMALL SAMPLE SIZE."

That would be if you considering over 1400 minor league AB's, and over 1100 ML AB's a "small sample size." I don't know what this irrational belief that Bloomquist could be decent if we just let him play came from. He's never done anything to warrant more playing time.


"I'm not advocating signing Willie to a 4yr/$100mil contract, i simply said he might be decent if he ever had a chance."

He had that chance, and he sucked.

Posted by Faceplant

6:46 PM, Jun 11, 2008

"Guy hit .281 and had an OBP of .337.....thats not bad for 3 full minot league seasons"

If you think a .337 career minor league OBP isn't bad then there is no point in continuing this conversation.


"i just said he'd probably perform better if given a chance....."

And you base that belief on what?

Posted by Capo

6:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Also, this is what was said earlier.

"Adam., Keep throwing the same tired argument out there, keep twisting words and using sarcasm to "make you point".......better head back over to the USSM, Dave and Derek need your slurping to pump their egos a little bit.

note: No one said a person is an EXPERT if the played through high school, but I honestly dismiss anyone who didn't even play the game at that level....that doesn't mean you aren't a fan....it just means you really don't know WTF you are talking about."

That last part was directed specifically at Adam, it wasn't a generalization about everyone. i think we've seen over the last couple of days that I'm not the only one who has had an issue with Adam.

Posted by BrianL

6:58 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Utley also had an .810 OPS in the minor leagues.

Just saying.

Posted by Unbiased Observer

6:59 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Adam this. Adam that. I go to bed thinking about Adam. Adam Adam Adam...I am obsessed with Adam.

Capo = the Adam trolls

Posted by Capo

7:00 PM, Jun 11, 2008

we weren't talking about OPS, were we?

Posted by BrianL

7:04 PM, Jun 11, 2008

No, but OBP by itself is only part of the story. When you add slugging percentage it becomes a much more telling statistic.

In the case of Willie Bloomquist, it's just damning.

Posted by Capo

7:08 PM, Jun 11, 2008

its sad that the USSM won't tolerate this BS thats gone on for two days.......but you guys have no problem going to other sites/blogs and chasing people off.......its like a little geek/weasel gang.....you go back to the hive and post something like "Over at Baker's Blog......", then a couple of you little trolls show up and play the game.

Its really sad.

Posted by BrianL

7:13 PM, Jun 11, 2008

So concerning the notion of Morrow being a closer...

I'd really prefer if he were stretched out as a starter. At this point, I don't really care how the team goes about that. Either send him to AA/AAA or do the Yankee method. He was far too high of a draft pick to be wasted in the bullpen and let's face it, this season is already a lost cause. If Putz is really down with an injury, stick Mark Lowe into the closer spot and get Morrow the innings needed to start.

Unfortunately, field management seems to be deadset against this idea. It appears that the only way Morrow will ever become a starter is for John MacLaren to get the pink slip.

Posted by Mr. X

7:17 PM, Jun 11, 2008

LOL

There's a future Hall of Famer in his 20th major league season right now who had a .321 OBP in 1753 minor league at-bats.

Not that Willie Bloomquist will ever be Omar Vizquel, but please, educate yourself. Minor league stats are minor league stats. You can put them in one hand and Bavasi in the other, and you'd have about the same thing. Just ask the guy over at "Leone for Third", since his website has been referenced here recently.

Then again, there is Corey Patterson and his .340 minor league career OBP. Maybe Bloomquist is the answer. LOL

Posted by macdoubter

7:18 PM, Jun 11, 2008

BrianL--hey, do you happen to know many pitches Morrow currently throws well enough to use besides his fastball?

Posted by BrianL

7:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Macdoubter - Jeff Sullivan just wrote up a rather lengthy article discussing Morrow's pitch selection.

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/6/11/549875/more-fun-with-pitchf-x-now

To sum it up, he's finally spotting his fastball and it looks like he's developed a plus changeup. All that really has to happen now for Morrow to be a successful ML starter is to do some more work on his breaking pitch, which appears to be a hard slurve.

Posted by macdoubter

7:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Correction -- "how many pitches"...

Posted by Mr. X

7:23 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Speaking of Leone for Third. As if on cue, there is another reference to it.

Posted by macdoubter

7:24 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Thanks. I'll check it out. I just get used to seeing him hit high 90's most of the time I wasnt sure.

Posted by BrianL

7:24 PM, Jun 11, 2008

When your third baseman was Jeff Cirillo, Justin Leone sure looked like an appealing option.

Posted by Mr. X

7:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Except when Jeff Cirillo was on our team, Justin Leone hadn't seen even one AAA pitch. Just another failed prospect.

Posted by Mr. X

7:41 PM, Jun 11, 2008

A failed prospect with a minor league career .363 OBP, no less.

Posted by Chopper58

8:03 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Geoff, I generally read this blog with earnest, however some of the comments on the blog are bringing down the tone and reflect bad on the newspaper and Mariner's fans.

I love my Mariners and am disappointed that they are playing so poorly but the mudslinging going on here needs to be fixed (proper logon and password perhaps). The imposters and tone of the blog by some has degraded greatly.

On the baseball, I feel shallow for a 2-1 win. Morrow again is looking lights out and the batting anaemic. Rather than batting Willie at 2, why not Yuni at 2 and Willie at 9. Just a thought. They were tossing around that idea at the beginning of the season and although he didn't do as well as Jose, he still has one of the better of the averages on the team.

Posted by Adam

8:40 PM, Jun 11, 2008

And we are still waiting for any one of the saberbashers to explain why Beltre is getting results at his lowest level in three years, yet is doing better in the parts of his game that they have identified as his weak spots (namely, plate discipline) in three years.

Still waiting...


BrianL - I would hope the Putz injury doesn't change the plans for Morrow as a starter, but I doubt the incompetents were going to make the change this year anyway.

After all, we are only 16.5 games back...

Posted by BrianL

8:52 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Only 16.5 back? Bah.

Blah blah blah 1995 blah blah blah Houston Astros blah blah blah not over yet blah blah blah Morrow stays in bullpen.

People typically get fired for being this out of touch with reality, right?

Posted by vandelay87

9:29 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Wow, the M's split a road trip and all of the pent up anger and frustration of the 2008 season turns inward. If they don't go back to their losing ways, this blog may implode on itself!

Hey Geoff, when are the M's going to fire Staci the ball girl? If we thought getting rid of Pentland was good, canning her sorry glove should really turn things around!

Posted by 11Records

9:51 PM, Jun 11, 2008

There's a simple reason as to why they're not moving Morrow to Tacoma or West Tenn to stretch him out as a starter.

It's the same reason they're not giving Wlad AB's right now.

Basically - Bavasi and MacLaren are trying to keep their jobs! And, having Morrow as a short reliever (or closer if JJ is out for a spell) right now means more wins in the very short term.

It's hard to think long term when you know that if you go 5 and 10 in your next 15 you're getting the ax. All the moves they're making now reek of this desperation, and an abject lack of long term thinking.

Posted by Mike

9:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Let us hope that Capo begins listening to the more moderate voices in his head.

Posted by SICK56

10:11 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Isn't Beltre playing with a bum wrist?

Posted by Mike

10:21 PM, Jun 11, 2008

Some time back we were discussing results-based-analysis. I found this link in the discussion on the blog that shall not be named but thought it worthy of a read. It's Paul DePodesta.

http://itmightbedangerous.blogspot.com/2008/06/draft-review-about-process.html

Posted by Cynical Optimist

1:12 AM, Jun 12, 2008

NOBODY CLICK ON THAT LINK. Interesting article but you can' close it. More boxes will just keep popping up until you turn off your comp.

Posted by Capo

11:12 AM, Jun 12, 2008

9:55 PM, Jun 11, 2008
Let us hope that Capo begins listening to the more moderate voices in his head.

I wanted to post one last time to kind of touch on this.....
The problem i have with a few of you is there is no moderation with anything you debate....its all one way or the other....which to me means people aren't using common sense or that they just choose to ignore it if it benefits them to do so.

The question was raised as to knowledge, and I explained my reasoning that I think you really need to have played the game at a competitive level to really understand it....I was asked what a competitive level was, and explained that I think HS is about where baseball starts becoming more a competitive game than a fun or learning game. I included some sarcasm directly specifically at a person who went to great lengths to be a sarcastic and confrontation jerk.....and a few of you twisted that whole argument into something it really wasn't.......then instead of bringing the conversation back on course, you felt it necessary to completely derail the conversation. i apologized to geoff for my part in this, but I think it speaks volumes about some of you that you felt it necessary to post under different names, and post completely off topic and inflammatory remarks.

As to the Beltre argument, again, some of you chose to ignore any part of the conversation that you didn't feel you could attack sarcastically, or which supported your argument. I never said Beltre sucked, or was terrible....I called him an average hitter, and the best defensive 3B I've seen.

My disagreeing with the "Luck" argument started all this crap......sorry, i don't buy into "luck".....If you've watched more than a few M's games this year, Beltre looks exactly the same as he has since signing with the M's......Guys are talking about the line drive numbers......but what classifies a line drive? does that mean he's mashed every one of those, or does it just mean they aren't lazy fly balls? You say he's making more contact on pitches outside the strike zone. Is that a good thing? Does that mean he has poor plate discipline? Is he turning more of that contact into poorly hit balls that are turned into outs?
To me, its not "luck", its results........he might be getting the bat on more pitches than he was, but that doesn't mean he's unlucky, and I'm sure if you go back and watch every game this season, you'll find "hits" that were graciously scored scored so by forgiving scorekeepers, bleeders that got through drawn in IF, and popups that simply fell in.....
To me, luck is a ground ball taking a wicked hop, or a gust of wind blowing a ball away from a fielder.......Adrian Beltre hitting .235 isn't luck, its results.
I made some sarcastic comments yesterday, and for that I apologize.....but I hardly think I was alone, or the worst offender...


Posted by Faceplant

2:54 PM, Jun 12, 2008

"There's a future Hall of Famer in his 20th major league season right now who had a .321 OBP in 1753 minor league at-bats.

Not that Willie Bloomquist will ever be Omar Vizquel, but please, educate yourself. Minor league stats are minor league stats."


Omar Vizquel has a career .695 OPS. He's been a mostly a useless hitter pretty much his entire career. If Omar gets into the hall of fame it's because of his bat, not his anemic bat.


The irony of being told to educate himself by Mr. X. Thanks for the laugh.


"Then again, there is Corey Patterson and his .340 minor league career OBP."

Corey Patterson is valuable for the exact same reason Omar Vizquel was valuable. Fantastic defense. I don't think you would find anyone that would argue that Patterson is a particularly good hitter.

Posted by Faceplant

2:56 PM, Jun 12, 2008

"its sad that the USSM won't tolerate this BS thats gone on for two days.......but you guys have no problem going to other sites/blogs and chasing people off"

I've made MAYBE 2 posts at the ussmariner in my entire life. I've posted here for over a year.

In other words, just shut up about this crap.

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