I seem to remember a different rationale for moving Ichiro to center. Something about his speed being more of a natural spot for center field @ Safeco, and needing more power out of the right field spot, AND the fact that good RFs are easier to come by.

Thanks Geoff, interesting stuff.

At this point I don't care about this season enough to get too upset about this, but doesn't this make a terrible defense even worse?

"There were some other things that I thought about too,'' he said. "Over the last two years that I've seen, just to put our cards on the table here, he takes so many balls out there that I think the other two (outfielder) guys -- whoever they are -- from last year to today, they think that he's got everything."

Soooo, Ichiro was moved to the corner because he get's to to many balls?

Worst. Manager. Ever.

And let's put it this way. Even if you think Ichiro's the best RF ever, that still doesn't change the fact that Ichiro is more valuable in CF, than he is in RF.

I'm willing to go with this for a little bit. Perhaps CF is puting a lot of wear on Ichiro's legs, and maybe that is a factor in his underacheiving with the bat. But don't tell me that you moved him to RF because he turns TO MANY balls into outs.

Geoff what is the likely hood of the M's dealing for Coco Crisp?

Oh, and by the way, is there some reason at all on gods green earth why John McClaren insists that Jose Vidro is a top of the order hitter?

It makes the defense better, if Reed is the one getting the ABs in CF..

Bloomquist is garbage in CF, so when he plays, the defense will be worse..

As for Ichiro and his attitude.. wouldnt suprise me, if he now goes off on a nice hitting streak.

He's a "me first" player, and when he's not happy, he sulks and doesnt give his best.

This move hurts us long term. Ichiro's bat in RF isnt overly special. Plus, the CF market is pretty barron. It will be very difficult to find a new CF who will be a quality offensive player. They just arent out there.

Finding corner outfield bats are alot easier, but now we have Ichiro taking up one of those spots.

Ichiro is a fabulous outfielder with a terrific arm, but I have been surprised with his play there. He doesn't position himself well, charges bloops poorly, gets burned on shots over his head, seems lost a lot of the time. He still covers a ton of ground, and can lean on that cannon, but his center field play isn't great. Actually, it isn't even good.

People are rightly laying blame on everyone from Bavasi to McClaren to Richie, and when something goes this wrong, there is plenty to go around. Ichiro is a special player, but he is the highest paid player on this team, and a singles hitter playing average defense with a .350 OBP (the only stat that matters for a singles hitter, IMHO) is, well, average.

When blame is being passed around, Ichiro gets a fair serving.

"It makes the defense better, if Reed is the one getting the ABs in CF."

It makes the defense better in the sense that Reed would be manning a position, rather than Bloomquist. But the best defensive alignment is Reed in RF, and Ichiro in CF, not the other way around. Actually I would almost argue the M's best defensive alignment with the current outfielders is Reed in left, Ichiro in center, and Ibanez in right. Seriously, RF is probably the least important defensive position in Safeco.

I love how everybody hates on Ichiro when he's in CF and now he's in RF and everybody hates that idea. I don't remember this much trash talking when we were winning games, only when we're losing. Do people have to complain about everything? At least Vidro's number 2 now instead of 3. Still shouldn't even be in the lineup, nor should Richie. At least we can still complain about that.

"He's a "me first" player, and when he's not happy, he sulks and doesnt give his best."

Prove it then. Seriously show me an example of Ichiro not performing well because he was unhappy.

Man, the Ichiro fate really has me questioning what is wrong with this fanbase. There are lots of people to blame for the Mariners sucking since 2004. Ichiro is not one of them.

"Ichiro is a fabulous outfielder with a terrific arm, but I have been surprised with his play there. He doesn't position himself well, charges bloops poorly, gets burned on shots over his head, seems lost a lot of the time. He still covers a ton of ground, and can lean on that cannon, but his center field play isn't great. Actually, it isn't even good."

There are times when the right words elude me.

This is one of those times. Seriously, it's amazing what some people in the Seattle fanbase think.

Good questions, Geoff.

Now, if we only had an answer as to why Sexson is still in the lineup!

Mr Sabermetrics wants to know what numbers Mr. Baker is quoting when saying Reed isn't hitting? Wlad, sure. Reed? He's hitting well enough for a part time, 4th OF.

Maybe Mac should play the guy more and Mr. S believes we will see a new Jeremy Reed, the one who tore it up in AAA for the Chisox.

Mr. Sabermetrics is disappointed that Richie Sexson is still playing 1b and Jose Vidro is still Dh'ing.

Yep, Mr. S LOVES how the team keeps talking about new approaches YET the same approach is being put out on the field game after game.

I am SO on board with EVERYTHING Faceplant said!

I have never understood this Ichiro backlash. Where does it come from?

Could Ichiro get to more balls? Yes, if he killed himself running into the wall everyday (like he did on that one not too long ago). Is that what you want? So, when he breaks his arm catching one meaningless ball, then what?

You people need to learn some baseball.

I support moving Ichiro to RF. I'll back Mac on this one (and am glad to hear him say that nothing was dictated from the top).

Now ... whooooo is our next CF? Clearly, we don't have that piece of the puzzle yet.

So much for Mr. X's theory that Ichiro moved to CF for selfish reasons.

And by the way, what position does Adam Jones play?

The Mariners have just made such a mess of things.

Way to put the team first, Ichiro. It bears repeating that there is no "I" in team, but there are two of them in Ichiro.

When you think of all the real superstars who would do anything to help their team win. Craig Biggio comes to mind. He moved to the outfield when the Astros signed Jeff Kent. Ichiro moves to Right Field to make room for Bloomquist/Reed. What a guy. Biggio would have never taken the easy way out like this. Disgusting.

Geoff how much more of Vidro and Sexson do we have to put up with. I would much rather see Lahair or whomever running out there?

LOL

Adam, Ichiro had 90 million reasons to move to Centerfield. I'm surprised it took him this long to switch back to right.

Any evidence anywhere that Ichiro didn't play as hard when as a CF, or that he asked out of the CF spot?

No? Then shut up with your selfish-Ichiro rants. You have no evidence at all to back up your stupid, baseless, biased opinions.

I think Ichiro is much more valuable in CF (especially with this roster), but there is nothing to suggest that he's played any part in this.

1. It is ridiculous to even suggest that Ichiro would have lost any money had he stayed in RF.

2. You are arguing a baseless claim. And Geoff's piece today only reinforces the idea that Ichiro moved to CF reluctantly, but for the good of the team.

Ichiro has played his ass off trying to win games this year. Stealing 2nd and 3rd to get in position to score on a SF or a squeeze... All that stuff. There have been games he's taken over by himself.

As to the CF position, I don't think Coco Crisp is an upgrade over Reed. At least - I'd like to give Reed a chance to prove himself...

He just turned 27 on Sunday. His minor league numbers:

AB - 1896
BA - 321
OBP - 386
SLG - 476
HR - 47
RBI - 285
Walks - 203
K - 203
SB - 108
CS - 43

So - he's hit for very good average. And, he's actually a selective hitter who walks a lot and strikes out very infrequently.

Is he gonna turn into Carlos Beltran? No. But - he could turn into Darrin Erstad for a couple of seasons. And, that would be AWESOME. You can win with a Darrin Erstad.

What it means, is that the M's will definitely need power at 1B, LF, DH and catcher. The team can afford to have table setting high average guys in CF and RF if they're getting power from those other positions.

Actually, Ichiro is embarrassed by this team. It shows.

Those who say he's selfish are hatin', plain and simple.

For the life of me, someone explain why Jose Vidro is still allowed to swing a bat.

We've got a guy with a .257 OPS hitting second...

Is it really a good idea to shop for OF's when we are facing the rebuild that Bavasi failed to do right? Why not have some players compete for the other 2 OF positions. Reed (check out his last 10 games before dismissing his bat), Wlad (can't give up on him yet), Raul (if hes here and not a 1B or DH), and Michael Saunders should be given shots for the jobs next spring.

Any theories on having young players go against each other for roster spots? Does that early competition carry over into competitiveness in the regular season?

The center fielder is supposed to be directing traffic out there, and should have coverage of left-center and right-center worked out with his outfielders. If corner outfielders have been letting Ichiro get to too many balls, to the point that said corner OFs are complacent, and thus Ichiro runs down too many balls in general... isn't it as much on Ichiro to set boundaries and work it out, as with the corner OFers to man their own territory, as with Mac to recognize this whole situation and fix it by talking to one or all of them?

What a mess.

"Ichiro moves to Right Field to make room for Bloomquist/Reed. What a guy. Biggio would have never taken the easy way out like this. Disgusting."

Mr. X.... McLaren was the one who approached Ichiro about switching back. Ichiro said nothing. So unless you have proof that Ichiro was angry he had to play CF... Shut, the hell up. I don't think there is a single poster that manages to consistently add nothing to the discussion like you do.

So, Ichiro relunctantly went to McLaren and asked to be moved to Center? Not buying it.

No matter how you slice it, Ichiro comes off as a coward who doesn't care what's best for the team. He's back to the easiest outfield spot in Safeco, and of course he's happy. As long as his handpicked manager is running the team, he'll get away with things like this.

Chris, what you're talking about would mean that Ichiro would have to actually talk to his teammates and show 5 minutes of leadership. Less than 5 minutes actually. Now he can sit over in his corner and just do the bare minimum.

Shut you mouth breathing pie hole X

And Ichiro's happiness does not necessarily = Ichiro's being selfish.

Ichiro's happiness in this instance is a superset of comfort with position, plus extra wear and tear, plus disruption of routine he's had in all his time in Japan + several years here. Cycling him into DH or (gasp!) giving him a day off here and there, plus setting expectations with who covers what in the outfield, plus having a left fielder with range (*cough cough* Raul should be DH *cough*), would alleviate all of those problems.

Unfortunately, a) I freely admit that last paragraph is armchair quarterbacking at worst and 20/20 hindsight at best and b) it would require more outfield depth than this club has possessed this year, possibly for a couple years or more.

But anyway. Looked at this way, this still could be about keeping Ichi happy. (Esp. since from all outward appearances, Mac doesn't seem to show this much interest in, e.g. making Jamie Burke or Eric O'Flaherty happy. And even if he did, that just feeds the "he's a friend when he should be a manager" thing.)

This is all USSM's fault. The sabergeeks over there have been spouting their nonsense advocating such an Ichiro move forever citing some faulty statistical analysis.

In this case, scouting should be utilized by a smart GM and not a USSM sponsored and hired GM like Bavasi. Clearly for many years USSM has been in Bavasi's ear, and Dave Cameron has personal ties to Bavasi's housemaid.

5 years ago in a famous article printed by the world famous baseball guide of Tuscahoochie, Wisconsin, the sabergeek who represents all sabergeeks in the entire known universe, Skippy Klondike, said that Horacio Ramirez would be a great pitcher oneday. Therefore anyone who follows stats believes that Horacio was a great pitcher. I, Resin, have spoken.

I stand by my statements and back them up with my word and dare any of you USSM trolls to cite anything, including the truth, that refutes my greatness, for I am God, and my opinion overrules anything in the cosmos.

How can you put a DH batting .210 in the lineup, let alone batting 2nd, and have respect as a field manager?

And no, Ichiro would not have fetched 90 million as a corner outfielder. Only Ichirobot goggles would make anyone think that Ichiro should be paid as much as run producing corner outfielders.

Vidro should be playing CF, and Sexson in LF....now that would make Ichiro happy!!!

"So, Ichiro relunctantly went to McLaren and asked to be moved to Center? Not buying it."

Has Ibanez asked to be moved to DH? If not then I expect to see the same comments about how he's a selfish worthless teammates. The fact that you consistently praise Ibanez shows you are either ridiculously biased, or just completely ignorant. I lean towards a little of both.

He was asked to move to CF, and he did. That alone shows just how dumb your continued assertion that he's selfish is.

"No matter how you slice it, Ichiro comes off as a coward who doesn't care what's best for the team. He's back to the easiest outfield spot in Safeco, and of course he's happy. As long as his handpicked manager is running the team, he'll get away with things like this."

So Ichiro is asked to move to CF by the manager and he does. But since he didn't volunteer to move to CF, before the manager asked him that means he's selfish. Then when the manager asks him to move back to RF (after he's played CF for two years) he's selfish for that as well.

Your an idiot, who's hellbent on slamming Ichiro no matter what he does, and for no apparent reason. He's asked to move to CF and he does? He's selfish. He's asked to move to RF and he does? He's selfish. Christ I put more stock into what Resin says than you, and that's saying a lot.

Seriously did Ichiro sleep with your wife or something?

"This is all USSM's fault. The sabergeeks over there have been spouting their nonsense advocating such an Ichiro move forever citing some faulty statistical analysis."

Nobody on the ussmariner has ever advocated that Ichiro be moved back to RF, and if you think they have you are quite simply, dumb.

Ichiro moved to center when Jose Guillen was signed in 07. He never asked to be moved there. Hargrove asked him. People dog on Ichiro because they say that he isn't vocal in the club house that has to do with language barriers as well as it is not his style. You can tell by his consistency of play that he leads by example. There are many problems on this team but don't confuse the willingness to compete and the fact that he is not getting into peoples faces every night. Ichiro does what is necessary to win. Anyone who argues that probably hasn't laced up a pair of spikes since high school.

Well maybe we can trade our "underachiving" (read: OverRated) Ace Erik Bedard...we have a holein center that in a rebuilding year could be given to a young, up and coming kid who can have a chance to learn his way at the plate. Maybe someone would even throw in a lefty, set up man with closing experience to free Morrow (aka Best non-Felix pitcher in the AL) for the transistion to the rotation. If we really got someone desperate we could even get a young pitching prospect...or 3 if they are run by a functional moron like Howard Lincoln and a blowhard who likes to tell Navy stories like Chuck Armstrong.

Maybe Bedard for
Adam Jones, George Sherrill and 3 prospects....If this franchise was a horse they would shoot it.

Faceplant you consently ask Mr. X and myself to provide support for our position that Ichiro is a selfish player right? well then I ask you to provide support that he is selfless. I really don't care if he is selfish to be honest. If he provided leadership it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact is he doesn't. If he was taking it upon himself to try and do everything within his power to turn this team around I would lay off, but he hasn't. He hasn't used his influence with Mr. Y to make sure that the front office is changed. If he had lobbied to keep Guillen here in Seattle. The truth is he hasn't done enough off the field to warrent a free ride for his attitude.

Faceplant, or the troll who is pretending to be Faceplant. Ichiro volunteered for Centerfield. This was settled months ago with multiple sources. Ichiro came to McLaren and volunteered for it to "get Chris Snelling's bat into the lineup" and Jones/Bloomquist out of the lineup. In other words, he saw an opening for a big payday while blocking Jones (who was sent down to AAA 2 days later) at the tail end of a lost season. At the time, the Mariners were in last place at 56-68, and 14 games back. Way to stick your neck out there and do what's best for Ichiro.

Carl Crawford for CF 09.

Mr. X, come on.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/286964_ichiro29.html

Martin, Ichiro moved to Center in August of 2006, and he was the one who asked to be moved there. It wasn't that long ago, Mariner fans should be able to remember.

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060820&content_id=1620117&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

"We've had discussions on and off for a while," Hargrove said. "I left it for him, when he felt it was the right time he would come to me. He came to me last night [after Snelling pinch-hit] and said it was a good time to try."

As for how much Ichiro -- who wasn't available for comment before the game -- would play in center field, Hargrove said that would be up to Ichiro himself.

"A lot of it has to do with how Ichiro feels about playing center field," Hargrove said. "... It's important they stay in the right frame of mind. If he's uncomfortable in center field ... I want to play him where he'll be more productive."

Mr. X it really doesn't matter to me that he moved on his own or not read my comment @ 7:19 and tell me you don't agree with me.

LOL

Chris, it says that Ichiro told them that he would play center if that's what they want. That's like me telling my wife that I'll try for child #3 four times a day every day if that's what she wants. As if either suggestion would be turned down. Ichiro volunteered for the job, and he couldn't handle it. It happens.

"Ichiro came to McLaren and volunteered for it to "get Chris Snelling's bat into the lineup" and Jones/Bloomquist out of the lineup."

Even Better. Ichiro volunteers to play CF and he's selfish. Ichiro plays CF for two years, and he's selfish. Ichiro is asked to move back to RF and he's selfish.

It doesn't matter what Ichiro does, he's selfish.

Spare me X. Your posts are a joke, and would rightly be deleted on the vast majority of self respecting blogs.

Enough with the Ichiro hating already. NO WAY do you trade one of the only consistent players on your team......That would be an extremely bad move.

Faceplant do you consider USSM a self-respecting blog? Just wondering. Just because you don't agree with Mr. X doesn't mean he isn't right. I really don't care about the Ichiro move i think it matters less than what color his hair is. My real issue is with his lack of leadership. He can be selfish and still lead. He needs to be the Lebron James of the MLB. He needs to act like this is his team and everyone else is just playing on it. If he is unwilling to do that then he needs to go.

Thank you Mr. X for correcting me I was still playing when that all took place and was in Vegas so I wasn't able to follow what was going on with my hometown M's. It use to be pretty hard to follow in season position changes, late season call ups, that sort of thing but after career ending shoulder surgery I have nothing but time. I should have researched it better.

I would still argue that Ichiro does have the teams best interest in mind and is a great competitor. You can do that and still try to get paid.

I know it's only the second start..... But Dickey's obviously not starter material. Please take him out before he gives up any more runs.

"Faceplant do you consider USSM a self-respecting blog? Just wondering. Just because you don't agree with Mr. X doesn't mean he isn't right."

This isn't a difference of opinion. It's about someone who thinks he's qualified to somehow judge everyone elses character. And to judge the character of people he's never met, and only seen on TV.

I don't think it's too much to ask someone to prove what they are saying. X's arguments are completely inconsistent (Ichiro is selfish because he volunteered to play a position the team needed him to play, but Raul Ibanez isn't when he refuses to play DH), or made up entirely of things he doesn't have a clue about (he has no clue how much he talks to his teammates, or what motivated him to move to CF). He likes to pretend he does, but he doesn't.

The only people who know Ichiro are his teammates, and they have nothng bad to say about him. In the end their opinion is the one that matters, not a self absorbed, holier than thou ass on a blog.

Faceplant I have actually met Ichiro on a CCI photoshoot, spent about an hour around him. That's not enough time to judge his character but you still haven't disputed my point about not using his relationship with the ownership to make the team better. I will admit i come off a condisending but my point is still not contested.

*condescending

resume your regularly scheduled programming.

Mariners..... you need to hit the god damn ball if you expect to score more runs. Look at this guy in his 3rd major league start smokin you guys..... pathetic..... Except for Ichiro of course... :)

For the record I can't spell and won't try to. Thanks for correcting me GripS. I have resolved to stop being Anti-Ichiro, I now will just ask him to lead and use his relationship with Mr. Y to turn this team around.

Look at the stats for AL centerfielders. Your logic again is based on gut feeling and a few games, which is not logic at all. I guess some people just need to look at the worst in thier best players, including writers.

Funny how so many of you complain.
I bet if someone like that a-hole Clay Bennett was deciding to move the team somewhere else, you'd all regret your words.

Trade Sexson to the Storm for a bunch of tickets. Then the M's can have a Storm ticket giveaway night.

Sexson would probably make a solid WNBA forward/center.

"If he was taking it upon himself to try and do everything within his power to turn this team around I would lay off, but he hasn't. He hasn't used his influence with Mr. Y to make sure that the front office is changed. If he had lobbied to keep Guillen here in Seattle. The truth is he hasn't done enough off the field to warrent a free ride for his attitude."

First of all you have yet to show me an example of Ichiro's "attitude" that isn't based almost entirely on half truths, and innuendo.

Second, you have no clue what kind of relationship or sway he has with Yamauchi. None. So stop pretending you do. Second you have no idea if Ichiro ever brought up anyhting to ownership, because neither you nor I are privy to any of that information.

Third, I find it quite hilarious that you rant about Ichiro's supposed "attitude problem", and then openly opine that we no longer have Jose Guillen, a guy who's been run out of every organization he's ever been in, is well known to have done steroids, and is universally known around the game as a complete ass.

Leaders don't win games. Talented baseball players do. I'm sure Willie Bloomquist can give lots of firey speeches, and slap people on the back. He still sucks, and doesn't help the team win.

X and Anti,

What the hell are you drinking!

Ichiro is not a selfish player. He is not vocal, because he's Japanese. It's a cultural thing. The Japanese player will alway put the team first. To this day he uses a translator, because they don't want to use the wrong words.

If Ichiro was selfish, why did he differ large amount of salary for many years? If Ichiro wanted more money, he could have signed with NYY or LAD. Both cities have a larger Japanese community.

I was very fortunate to see Ichiro face to face during an Angels home opener against the M'S. In the sea of red, Ichiro came over and signed my jersey, ball and trading card. This doesn't sound selfish to me!

you know, Its very possible Seattle could acquire crisp from the Boston Redsox for an additional pitcher, Ibanez, or johjima. Hear me out,

If Seattle is willing to give Clement the startin job, which seems likely, Johjima comes trade bait. Varitek is a FA at the end of the year, and Johjima is a viable option for the Sox, especially with Dice K.

#2, Ortiz is hurt, Ibanez can DH, play 1st, and LF. I dont see him back with seattle next year.

#3, Colon just went on the DL, Schilling is done, they might look to add a pitcher, maybe washburn for crisp??

Just a thought, what yall think??

quit talking about Vernon Wells Geoff, that's the kind of Bavasi crap that has led to his firing and a 22-under .500 excuse for a ball club. My little nephew can run some balls down in center and hits about .450 in Babe Ruth - will cost less than 10% of what Wells would and could probably produce the same.

Quit with the GD free agents - there is a reason they are free agents - the old club doesn't want them and they want too much $$$. If you're gonna be 22-under .500 by June 19th, who gives a rip who's out there? Grow someone of your own ilk.

And for all of those with wood for Teixeira - his stats are decent, but for the cash he makes, his avg should be 50-60 points higher and he should have some more RBIs and bombs. He's solid, but people in ATL are wondering why McCann still bats behind him, getting to lead off the next inning after Teixeira leaves runners on.

Seriously - this team needs to be committed to staying away from free agents - Ichiro is the only one to work out (besides Guillen) that they kept in the last 6 years and they had to pay $13M just to talk to him. If Washburn, Silva, Speizio, Aurilia, Wilkerson, Weaver, Cairo, Sexson, Beltre, and Vidro don't tell the story - then there's no hope for those liking to get FAs.

Wow, look those anti-Ichiro morons trying to blame the team's failures on Ichiro.

Where in Ichiro's contract does it stipulate that he's supposed to be team leader?

Why is Ichiro the only one that has to meet this vague 'team leader' criteria? Why not Sexson who's also paid big bucks? Or Beltre? Hell, Silva just got a fat contract too! Bedard just got traded for 5 guys, and before even throwing one pitch, they called him the ACE. How come he doesn't have to be the leader?

Where's the proof that Ichiro is selfish? It's on the accuser to prove that!

So you doofuses think that an inspirational, leader-like speech from Ichiro will turn Silva into a an Ace pitcher?
Will high-fives and encouraging words turn Sexson into Arod? Puh-lease.

That's the sign of a hater - creating mythical criteria out of thin air so that no matter what someone does, they appear to be a failure. What's next, Ichiro's a failure becaues he can't pitch? He should be run out of town because doesn't hit triples?