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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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June 19, 2008 9:59 AM

McLaren fired as manager

Posted by Geoff Baker

bavasi0616 025.jpg

Just got the word. John McLaren is out as manager of the Mariners. Bench coach Jim Riggleman has been promoted to the position. Press conference at 11:30 a.m.

"John worked extremely hard, but our team continued to under perform compared to our expectations of them,'' interim GM Lee Pelekoudas said in a release. "With 90 games left on our schedule, we owe it to ourselves and our fans to do everything we can to win as many games as possible. At the same time, as we move towards the trade deadline and decisions have to be made on the futures of the players on our ballclub, I wanted to see if a different voice could make a difference in their performance.''

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Posted by Brett in Bonney Lake

10:00 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Holy crap. Good guy, lousy manager.

Posted by drake

10:02 AM, Jun 19, 2008

the dominoes continue to fall...

Posted by Bob Loblaw

10:02 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Sorry to see, but it was needed. Richie, are you watching?

Posted by gone-shootin

10:07 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Good... keep sweeping (the broom.) Clean the whole damn house... yard... neighborhood.

Cut: Sexson and Vidro.

Trade: Ichiro, Beltre, Ibanez, Putz (when healthy), Washburn and Batista.

Call Up: All minor leaguers with any talent.

Send Down: Morrow to Double or Triple A to get about 15 starts the rest of the year.

Headhunt: Experience, forward-thinking GM and GIVE HIM ABSOULTE control.

Add: 5 additional fan appreciation nights with $5 cash for attending game and putting up with all of this crap; and STILL HAVING TO PAY full price for our season tickets for a mid-level - at best - Triple A talent team.

Posted by Kamina Ayato

10:09 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I still don't think McLaren was the real issue. There's still two heads of the FO monster called Lincoln and Armstrong.

All McLaren could do was try to make the **** that he was given look better. At least he could've been given the rest of the year then fired.

Of course, that's unless the team wasn't listening to him anymore. But then again, a good chunk of the team needs to go anyways, so even that argument doesn't carry weight.

Posted by Mark WS

10:10 AM, Jun 19, 2008

BS! Why doesn't Howard, John and Chuck take a look at themselves in the mirror and practice accountability?? Can they say they have done their best, and don't deserve the same fate?? Its time boys, take a hike! Quit blaming everyone else.

Posted by Bay Area M's Fan

10:11 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Interesting that USSMariner is redirecting all traffic to Geoff's blog. I guess they know they're going to get crushed (with traffic) today.

Posted by Mr. Stranex

10:12 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Agreed Kamina. McLaren definitely wasn't good and Bavasi was an obvious disaster but as long as Lincoln and Armstrong are steering the ship with their old, tired ways and organizational philosophies, these firings are basically just like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

That was a lot of nautical analogies (or is it a metaphor?) for one post. For that I apologize.

Posted by KingCorran

10:12 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Armstrong, Lincoln... you guys putting yourselves on the block next? These guys needed to go... but so do you guys. Otherwise, it'll just be rinse-and-repeat in five years...

Posted by tony

10:13 AM, Jun 19, 2008

It's easy to add a couple bucks to the Yankee and Red Sox games (although it should be the Sox and Devil Rays based on performance -lol- ). So how about a refund for the crap the Mariners are putting out on the field to compensate?

Posted by Jared

10:13 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Wow. How do you think Ichiro will react since they are Best friends forever? Well he's under contract so it doesnt matter i suppose. Crazy man.

We should get some good player reactions after this..

Posted by lailaihei

10:14 AM, Jun 19, 2008

McLaren is an idiot and a terrible manager.
That being said, Armstrong and Lincoln are at the heart of all of the Mariners problems.

Until they either change their philosophy or get fired, there isn't going to be any real change.


Also to the guy saying "trade Ichiro"
You're wrong, do you want the Mariners to lose all their fans? Do you want millions of dollars in revenue gone? Do you want the Mariners to lose the face of the franchise?
It doesn't make sense from a baseball sense or a business sense. He's one of the best players in the game and one of the only players who brings people out to games.

Posted by eastcoast

10:15 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Maybe the FO didn't like the fact that both Reed and Clement were in the line-up yesterday, and Mac was promising more playing time to Clement. We'll probably see Joh, Vidro, and Sexson back in the line-up tomorrow.

Posted by Earl

10:15 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Howard Lincoln needs to be fired. He has managed this organization from being one of the best teams in baseball to the worst. The problems with this team transcend the Manager and the GM, it is a philosophical problem that focus on providing good entertainment rather than wining games. It started when Lincoln forced Lou Piniella out because Mr. Lincoln knew better what it took to manage a baseball team than Lou Piniella did. Look at what happened to the Mariners after that. Nothing is going to get better until he is done.

Earl

Posted by peteypablo82

10:15 AM, Jun 19, 2008

he deserves to be fired. He sucked it up.

Its not all his fault by any means, however, the Manager has to be one of the first to go in this situation. look at Willie Randolph.
His mets were near 500 ball... when the performance isnt good enough, the Mgr goes first.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

10:15 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Hope Mac has support of family and friends, as he seemed like a sensitive man who was trying to do the right thing. (Despite his faults and limitations as a manager, which have been discussed here to death.)

Necessary. A touch overdue. Keep the housecleaning going, it's the only way to put truth to Armstrong/Lincoln's statements about changes needing to be made.

Very, very curious to see how Ichiro does (both immediate reaction and on-field performance), as he and Mac seemed pretty close.

Posted by Novice

10:16 AM, Jun 19, 2008

If this teams DFA Bloomquist, theres a good chance i will never attend another game. this is an outrage, Perlozzo can't do anyhting right and he needs to be released.

Posted by The Realist

10:16 AM, Jun 19, 2008

McLaren may not have been the key issue and it's still with Howard and Chuck...but Mac, as good a guy as he is, had to be let go. Anyone who bats Vidro 3rd or in cleanup has no business being a manager.

Posted by DistantFan

10:17 AM, Jun 19, 2008

A little surprised to see this happen today. Figured he was safe as long as they were more concerned with cutting players and looking for Bavasi's replacement. But, we all knew it was coming in any case. No point belaboring it.

Does this save Richie for another day or another series? I like Sexson, but he was given more opportunities to save himself than most players hope to get. And he consistently failed.

So, let's see some more cleaning house.

Posted by Bay Area M's Fan

10:18 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Whatever happens, I sure hope we don't hear the infamous 5 year plan. We've heard it with these M's, with the Schultz's Sonics, and to some degree, with the Huskies during their coaching carousel. With the financial resources at the M's disposal, you can turn things around in far less time than that (assuming, of course, the folks in charge make good decisions. And eat some contracts. And get a little lucky.). Shoot, just look at what the A's do year after year with far far far less.

Posted by scrapiron

10:19 AM, Jun 19, 2008

News isn't surprising, timing is.

Club President says players need to be accountable.
GM says players need to be accountable.
Manager says players need to be accountable.

Result? GM fired, Manager fired. Players stay. Still no roster moves. Strange.

Posted by Brett in Bonney Lake

10:19 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Bloomquist is safe as a PR, nothing more. Putting him in CF is a joke.

ANyone think RIchie is on the plane today?

Posted by lailaihei

10:19 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Maybe now Raul will be DH, Balentien can come back up and play LF, and Johjima can start at 1st, giving Clement, Reed, and Balentien all starting jobs.

Posted by KnewBetter

10:19 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I'm so stunned I'm repeating myself...

I thought that if we only got rid of some inexperienced prospects and brought in gritty veteran starters who have been through the wars, that John McLaren and his great baseball gut would lead us to the World Series...and anyone who said otherwise was a naysaying idiot who didn't understand the importance of chemistry...how could this have happened????

Posted by Full Count

10:20 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Nobody could have coached this team to a winning season with the poor players on this staff.

The players should be real proud of their efforts they have successful exploded this team, idiots, now I hope some of them start to pay the price and lose there MLB jobs.

Thanks Mac, Good luck

Posted by sundodger in sodak

10:22 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Riggleman will be better with the young players than McLaren. I don't think you send Morrow down. Just put him in the rotation now. I agree with the full trade list. Unlikely anyone would take Johjima.

This transformation coming is necessary but surreal.

Posted by Bums

10:22 AM, Jun 19, 2008

See ya. Fans need to brace themselves for a terrible year in 2009 and maybe some wins in 2010. Hopefully they can get a real manager not a friend to the players, especially the really crappy players. Another piece of advice, do not hire interim managers to be permanent. Very really works, there is a reason these guys are just bench coaches.

Posted by beef

10:23 AM, Jun 19, 2008

they fired him on an off day, before a 9 game road trip. seems like a smart move gives Riggleman a few days out of the spotlight of playing at home. at least riggleman has some past managerial experience and will be able to create lineups that do not involve vidro batting in the 2-3-4-5 spot.

Posted by Full Count

10:24 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The time has come for the Mariner business culture to change and to complete the reworking this team's future Mr. Armstrong must resign.

Posted by lailaihei

10:25 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The reason that Morrow needs to go down to AA is to work on his secondary pitches. At this point they aren't major league ready, so sticking him in the rotation will make him rely on his fastball (and he won't even work the other pitches).

It's not McLaren's fault that this team sucks.
It isn't the player's fault either.
McLaren didn't choose the terrible players, and the terrible players are trying their best.
McLaren did contribute to the cause by starting Vidro and platooning Reed/Bloomquist though, and leaving Raul in LF.

Posted by eastcoast

10:25 AM, Jun 19, 2008

As was mentioned previous, when are the necessary and long-overdue player moves going to take place? Still waiting for Sexson and Vidro to get their pink slips.

Man, some serious changes need to made. The most important question isn't who goes, it's who stays? My god, Lopez has the range of a squirt gun.

Posted by Lance

10:27 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Finally!!!

A good baseball guy, but a fish out of water. The Peter Principle lives.

Two down, one to go. The biggest one, unfortunately. If that one doesn't happen nothing will really change.

Posted by lailaihei

10:28 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lopez looks bad sometimes.
But he's the best defender on the team behind Ichiro, Reed, and Beltre.
Don't blame him.

Posted by Judy in Seattle

10:29 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Well, in Joh McLaren's behalf, this is only his first year...I don't think he's had time to make many decisions! I think Bill Bavasi should have been let go years ago. Amazing how all of our good players are traded and then do well elsewhere (such as Mike Cameron, etc.!) We trade good players for players we play a lot of money for and then they underperform...frustrating (but I'm still a fan!)

Posted by OlyOle

10:30 AM, Jun 19, 2008

a poorly assembled team, a poorly managed team, and a poor performing team - seems to me that responsibility ought to also rise to the top. Lincoln and Armstrong should be forced to resign by ownership.

Posted by Mikavexo

10:30 AM, Jun 19, 2008

2 half seasons of managing a dysfunctional team that he inherited is hardly a fair shot. This guy didn't even get 1 full season to manage. So, how many managers have the M's had since Lou left?

Melvin
Hargrove
McLaren
Riggleman

4 managers in what 6 years? Perhaps the team manager isn't to blame here. At some point in time the team is going to have to look at itself and say nobody is succeeding at this position perhaps it's upper management rather than field management.

I personally believe that McLaren is gone because his tenure was tied to the Bedard trade. He seems to be a cancer in the clubhouse. If not a cancer then at least a lazy guy with a negative impact. He truly doesn't seem to care if they win or lose. McLaren wanted this guy, Bavasi wanted this guy and this guy stinks. Perhaps he's a good pitcher, but he's only mediocre right now. I'd rather have a energetic, positive mediocre player than this clown.

Don't get me wrong, I was initially in favor of the trade, but I didn't realize he had that kind of an attitude. Bavasi should have known about that.

I'd like to see McLaren catch on with another team, perhaps the Mets. I hear they're hiring. I'd like to see him managing in the world series next year. I'd like to see him pull a Melvin.

Posted by Ziasudra

10:31 AM, Jun 19, 2008

In industry, the Peter principle is well known. Someone does a good job, they are promoted. They continue to do well, so they are promoted again, until they no longer do a good job at that level. So they just stay there. The result? industry is run by incompetents. They all should have been returned to the level in which they did a good job.
Mac may have been a good bench coach. But he was clearly misplaced as manager. I hope he finds another bench coaching job eventually.

PS - this also applies to Bavasi, Armstrong, and Lincoln

Posted by Geoff's Assistant

10:31 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Riggleweiner?? who is this guy, another one of the dump hires of Mac's? this guy should get the boot as well, he is nothing more than double A manager who doesnt even have a trash compactor.

Posted by Bill

10:33 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Best of luck, Mac. I questioned a lot of your decisions, but not your passion for the game.

Posted by SnohoCo

10:33 AM, Jun 19, 2008

No surprise that Pelekoudas was "assigned" this task - needed to be done. Ms can finish out the season best they can, new GM gets hired at the end of the season who can bring in his own field management team. Fresh start - but rest of this season is done for all intents and purpose. But perhaps a birhgrter future over the longer term.

Posted by Nat

10:33 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Best to McLaren in the future, but a necessary step #2. Let the housecleaning continue with Sexson, Vidro, etc. etc.

IF- and that's a very big IF- Lincoln and Armstrong understand the necessity to step down themselves, e.g., for their resignations, they may stay in place until the end of the season to 'maintain some sense of stability' while they oversee the hiring a new GM. That's my hope anyway!

Posted by lailaihei

10:34 AM, Jun 19, 2008

TO ALL THOSE DEFENDING JOHN MCLAREN
Please reconcile these:
1. Putting in Rick White in high leverage situations.
2. Putting in John Parrish in high leverage situations.
3. Starting a DH (Raul) in LF when we have a decent LF and no DH.
4. Batting Vidro in the 2-5 spots almost every day.

Please tell me how anyone can think that these are good decisions.

Posted by diehardseattle

10:34 AM, Jun 19, 2008

He was not a motivator as good as we had hoped but who could be with less than average roster. He came into a bad situaion and made the best of it. I like Mclaren as a bench coach or more but I think he wil get another shot someday.
Too bad the people who Hired bavasi are not accountable. I hope more roster moves and trades are on the way soon.
I want a new reason to like this team, so please keep cleaning house.
I think anyone should be considered to trade but focus on keeping youth and young talented prospects. Take a note from Oakland.

Posted by Rudy L

10:35 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Makes sense. Now it's time to do the same with Vidro, Sexson, Bedard, Batista, Washburn, Bloomquist, Cairo, Rizzs. That's right, Rizzs. He perfectly represents the lightweight organization the M's are.

Posted by DugoutNut

10:36 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Seem old Mike Hargrove knew something. Wonder when that story is going to come out?

Posted by Fortified Milk

10:39 AM, Jun 19, 2008

who thinks the guy in the picture at the top of the page needs to shave his neck?? what a hippie

Posted by eastcoast

10:39 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lopez is a bad defender.. Saying he is not part of the problem because he is 4th best on the team is like saying Johjima isn't part of the problem becasue he has the best avg with RISP on the team. That argument doesn't make sense.

Posted by Vanos

10:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

That's 2 of the 4 problems gone.

We all know who else needs to go...to bad it won't happen

Posted by EH

10:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

its Ichiro's brother in law. He is wearing one of John Mclarens shirts too.

Posted by Edgar Saves

10:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Howie Lincoln talked about "new ideas" and "new paths" as part of the reason for letting Bavasi go.

Howie should abide by his own words and let go of Chuckles Armstrong who has been in the Mariner "family" well over 20 years.

It is time for a change and if this is housecleaning then Chuckles Armstrong must go. Didnt he hire Bavasi??

Posted by Kyle in Kentucky

10:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Yah, I was just thinking...I wonder what Hargrove is thinking right about now...

Posted by Gary

10:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The M's are a mess. I've been a fan for a long time and the missteps far exceed the right ones and the fans deserve better.
I have empathy for McLaren because he cared deeply for this team. Bavasi guessed wrong way too many times.
Personally, I'd look at everyone from Howard Lincoln on down.

Posted by Truth

10:41 AM, Jun 19, 2008

This moron had Cairo as a #2 hitter and deserved to be fired weeks ago. He showed everyone how indefensibly STUPID he really is during this short stint and I hope he never works in baseball again. Have a happy retirement Mac, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by Johaan

10:42 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Shouldn't we fire Howie instead? Please?

Posted by BillyBavasiB&B

10:42 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Its been a bad run, I found out last night after drinking too many shots of B&B i forgot to protect my Dickey while having Sexson. Now my Dickey is very Ichiro and I cant seem to get out of this pickle. So i dropped the deuce on the Jon and forgot abouth the whole thing.
-From

Posted by Full Count

10:43 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Did Betancourt really say he prefered dictator Fidel Castro over current Seattle manager John McLaren.

"It's all about power with him he berates us and talks for hour after hour about unity and pride, but you know he doesn't care about anyone but himself."

"He calls team meetings, but he's just doing them to make it seem like he's doing a good job managing. Say what you want about him, but at least you knew where you stood with Castro."

Are those statements what he said?

Posted by Grandson

10:43 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I'm gonna be honest, i enjoy a good slice of crumb cake now and then, but come one this is non sense. Mac did nothing worng, he was just in the idiot pathway of Bavasi who gave him garbage to work with. Mac should of got some kind of extension for his admirable work this season.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

10:43 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lailaihei - Morrow is a setup man / closer now. Get used to it. If you could go back in time two years, stretch him out in AA/AAA, get him some competent coaching and truly develop a 2nd pitch, it'd work.

Haven't we learned anything from the "start RAD!" exhortations? (And this coming from someone who wanted to see Dickey in the lineup coming out of spring training. Last couple starts have changed my mind.)

Debate Morrow's wasted talent and wrecked development all you want. He's a closer now. Keep him a closer, trade JJ for value in prospects, learn from the experience to better identify and develop starters in the minors.

Posted by Chris from Bothell

10:46 AM, Jun 19, 2008

FullCount - where the hell did you get those quotes from? Newspaper? Radio? Internet? Fever dream?

Posted by gone-shootin

10:46 AM, Jun 19, 2008

ATTENTION CHRIS LARSON: Minority M's owner and member of the board of directors:

Why don't you dismiss Lincoln and Armstrong and take over???

FYI: To all who don't know, the Mariners are run by a board; not solely by Lincoln. He answers to them, then to Yamauchi.

Here's the email I sent to Lincoln and Armstrong on Monday:

BEFORE THAT: Just heard on KJR that some of the players and staff LEARNED ABOUT THE FIRING FROM THE RADIO!. Another example of terrible top level management.

To: hlincoln@seattlemariners.com; carmstrong@seattlemariners.com

Subject: Howard: Why Don't You Honor Your Words?

Howard,

Here’s what you said in November 2006:

"The entire organization, and especially me, is on the hot seat. I thought long and hard about continuing with Bill and (manager Mike Hargrove, who quit in 2007). I'm putting my neck out on the line because I believe in them. I've made it clear to the ownership group that, having made the decision, I'm fully responsible for it."

Why not do the honorable thing, and step down? YOU YOURSELF say, ‘I’m fully responsible for it.’

Or, was this just more corporate lip service… with no teeth?

Lee P. is probably a nice guy. However, you and Chuck have been the constants… and the
Mariners have NEVER won.

You ran off Pinella, now he’s in first place.

You ran off Melvin, he won Manager of the Year.

And you “stuck your neck out” for Hargrove, and he quit (God only knows the true reason).

You guys are in the business of protecting the bottom line, which you do very well. However, you have no knowledge of how to cross the finish line… in first place.

Tip: Look at Ruskell and the Seahawks for an example.

I DO THANK YOU GUYS for saving baseball in Seattle. You made it happen.

However, it’s now time for management who can field a consistent winner that this fan base now deserves… we’ve proven ourselves with our support.

More importantly, it’s time for management that is personally accountable… and doesn’t pass the buck with firing a no-name hitting coach and hands-tied General Manager (hands tied in that I’m sure Bavasi wasn’t the person clamoring for and negotiating Jojhima’s contract. Heck, he might not even had knowledge of it.)

Until then, we’re dumping our season tickets.

By the way, this season has been a VERY BAD INVESTMENT for us. There are literally games we can’t get more than $10 a ticket for our seats.

TC
Normandy Park, WA

Mariners Response: we're addressing things.

Posted by marinersbrian

10:48 AM, Jun 19, 2008

John McLaren is a good baseball man who was given a lousy team. He came into this job under tough circumstances (Hargrove quitting) and leaves in the same manner. I hope he finds similar fate such as Bob Melvin and all you experts who say he's an idiot can eat your words.

Best to Jim Riggleman- I will root for you- please give some of our young guys a chance.

Posted by matt

10:48 AM, Jun 19, 2008

See ya Johnny! You never shouldve been the manager!!!!!!!!!!!! Sexson your up, Vidro your on deck, Cairo, Bloomquist, get ready! HAPPY DAYS! Keep Firing people!

Posted by jk

10:49 AM, Jun 19, 2008

McLaren is probably relieved and on a plane to Chicago to go work for a winner (Pinella). It is not his fault he had to deal with a
DH and 1st baseman both hitting .200, an ace that is a complete A-Hole and a catcher that everyone hates.

He did not put this team together, he did not give Johjima a 3 year extension (which I think was a morale killer), he did not cut Greg Norton (the only guy who could run).

In 3 years under Bavasi, he had 3 different managers. Melvin who is now on his way to leading Arizona to its second straight 95 + win season and a guy who was a proven winner who just quit on him.

What a joke.....what an absolute sorry joke.

Posted by scrapiron

10:49 AM, Jun 19, 2008

For those of you wondering who Jim Riggleman is, from Wikipedia:

James David Riggleman (born November 9, 1952 in Fort Dix, New Jersey) is the interim manager of the Seattle Mariners. He was the manager of the San Diego Padres from 1992 to 1994 and of the Chicago Cubs from 1995 to 1999. His career record was 486-598. His most successful season was 1998, when he led the Cubs to a playoff appearance, losing to the Atlanta Braves in the National League Division Series three games to none.

Posted by Kunkoh

10:50 AM, Jun 19, 2008

those Yuni comments are from an article in the Onion; which is a humor/satire site. So no, he didn't really make them.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/cuban_refugee_yuniesky?utm_source=EMTF_Onion

Posted by Seriously?

10:51 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To the person who said he would not attend another game if Bloomquist was DFA'd... please tell me you are kidding. Willie Bloomquist is valuable as the 25th man on the roster, but he should NOT be playing regularly. He has valuable skills but only in limited situations.

I seriously do not understand the love for that guy.

Posted by scrapiron

10:51 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Full Count - those quotes were from the Onion. It's a parody. Yuni never actually said those things.

Posted by pbk13

10:53 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Last week the GM, this week the Manager, next week the Moose.

Chuck and Howie need to go too.

But we should leave WFB alone, it's not his fault that he sucks.


Posted by white line fever

10:53 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Wow, It is always sad when good people lose their jobs, and I agree with everyone in my curiosity why players haven't been released yet, I do however believe that we will ee said player movement soon.
all that being said career record with this team is 20 games below .500 and i do believe organization wise it is the right move to make, he obviously lost the clubhouse and new blood is in order now the question is who.

Larry Bowa, Bobby Valentine, Jim Rigglemen, Don Mattingly Norm Charlton Bill Krueger Alan Trammel
Ron Roenecke, Tony Pena.........

Posted by Kamina Ayato

10:54 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To lailaihei:

Points 1 & 2 refer to sabermetric terms. We know for a fact that wasn't the case here at ANY level of management/FO. Besides, these were GM signings and for all we know McLaren was probably told to use them.

Point 3. Do we know for a fact that the idea of DH wasn't brought up to Raul and he refused? I sure don't have my ear to the ground with what goes on behind the scenes, but if the subject was brought up and Raul refused, then what can McLaren do? Now if Raul was willing to do it (and not grudgingly), then that's another issue.

Point 4. Almost can't argue with you there. But really who else gets put in there? There's only so much you can do given the roster you're given (or possibly forced to use).

Look, I'm not defending McLaren in the sense that he should be our manager of the future. All I'm saying is that right now, there are bigger fish to fry than McLaren. He can afford to go at the end of the year since this year is lost anyways.

Posted by Lance

10:56 AM, Jun 19, 2008

People, Armstrong works for Lincoln. It's not Howard's job, nor does he try to practice, running the team. Chuckie is top dog and answers only to Howard and the Board.

I don't know why people continue to speak of them as Siamese twins, because they aren't. And, I can't believe Lincoln is going to ultimately let Armstrong cost him his position as Chairman of the Board of the Mariners.

Yes, he's spoken of past moves as jointly agreed upon, but that's more to project a picture of team unity than anything. The buck really stops with Armstrong, not Lincoln. Howard is not responsible for how the team performs, good or bad. Ultimately that's Armstrong. Lincoln is really only responsible for how the owners' investment is working out.

Howard is responsible for only one hire, team presidnt. Nothing else. He may have some input on other key positions, but past team president, he's only responsible for the team's profitibility..

It's time for Howard to do the deed. Armstrong, the former Agyros lieutenant, helped the Japanese ownership get on board, but he's used up his chips for that. I know it, you know it, the American people know it. I just hope Howard, who really is a smart guy if you're willing to seperate the two to take a look, knows it.

Posted by Davis

10:57 AM, Jun 19, 2008

seriously?---

those comments from Novice (aka Willie himself) are pretty standard.

Posted by FG

10:58 AM, Jun 19, 2008

those quotes about Yuni were from the Onion-which, for those that don't know, is a spoof newspaper-a la Daly Show, Colbert Report.

Hope that helps
FG

Posted by pdb

10:58 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The M's should consider hiring Brian Price as the manager. He has had a lot of succes as the pitching coach for both the M's and Arizona.

Posted by Novice

11:01 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Willie 'Fundamentals' Bloomquist, sure takes alot of bashing on this board, yet no one can stand up and give him praise when he produces in the games. This guy made a great fake out in center to make the runner on second think he would cath the ball, ultimately holding the runner at third. I applaud Willie for his baseball knwledge. he is a true gamesman.

Posted by DownOnStrikes

11:03 AM, Jun 19, 2008

How can we be happy when McLaren's replacement is from the same camp and has a stellar .448 major league managing record? We need a wide-spread purge that includes Lincoln, Armstrong and the players mentioned by my fellow bloggers. It is ridiculous to peck away at a diseased log when chopping down the tree is needed allowing the forest to rejuvenate itself again

Posted by eastcoast

11:04 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I'm really surprised at the amount of support for McLaren. Nice guy? Yes. Good manager? Hell no!! His in-game decisions were terrible. When he would call someone out, he put them right back in the line-up the following night. It's like threatening your child with no toys, bed early, and then giving in anyway. I don't think these players respected him at all.. These guys need a manager, not a friend.

Posted by Jared

11:04 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I'm gonna miss seeing him in the black leather jacket with his hair slicked back.

Posted by macdoubter

11:06 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Excellent!

Posted by Novice

11:06 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I really don't like Willie Bloomquist. I have been joking the whole time.

Posted by Davis

11:08 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I can't think of one time in my life, where i watched a game and thought, wow its a good thing we had Bloomquist in there. he is horrible

Posted by Mike

11:09 AM, Jun 19, 2008

So Geoff---Does this mean Ichiro stays in RF or goes back to CF?

Posted by SICK56

11:09 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Open letter to Mariners Players:

Hi guys! Well you all should be very proud of yoursleves. You have cemented this team in the cellar. Not only that, but you have earned the title of "Laughingstock of MLB" Yep, the whole league is laughing at you and shaking their heads.

Your sleepwalking half assed efforts have now gotten two men fired from their jobs. Quite an accomplishment! I am impressed!

I apologize that I haven't been able to make it out to The Safe to see you in person. My reason being that I just cannot afford it. Due to your sky high salaries and outlandish ballpark prices, a workin man just can't make the grade. It doesn't look like I missed too much though.

I would however, like to invite you down to my workplace. It is FREE. I doubt you would enjoy it though. You will be asked, no required to BUST YOUR ASS as long as you are there. You WILL get a 45 minute break to eat lunch, then back to work. You will only get paid just a fraction of what you are currently making for playing a child's game. You will wake up the next day sore as hell, with aches and pains in places you did not know existed. But you may wake up with a certain pride. A pride in the fact that you EARNED your pay, you EARNED those pains. Something you seem know very little about.

Please accept this invitation. Hell, I will buy lunch. Hope you like Subway, I can't afford much more than that.

Well I hope you all enjoy your 1st class plane seats, classy hotel rooms, hundred dollar a day food allowance, personal trainers and massage therapists. We all know you have earned it. Right?

By the way, when you are at Turner Field and you hear laughter from the opposing dugout and stands, yes, they are probably laughing at YOU!

I know I am...

Posted by Gordie

11:12 AM, Jun 19, 2008

On one hand, it's not Mac's fault his team is completely inept and put together with a bunch of overpriced clowns (namely Washburn, Sexson and Silva). On the other hand, is Mac the one who keeps putting Vidro in the lineup at DH and high in the order?

Now how do we get rid of Lincoln and Armstrong? Things won't change unless they're gone.

Posted by Novice

11:12 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Riggleman knows that the key now that Mac is gone is to find that lineup that will produce. Power has been missing this last homestand, so throw Willie in to CF, reed can come off the bench and be pr. Now the bench is stronger and there is more power in the lineup.

Posted by hmm

11:12 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I heard Jose Vidro is getting his hair done today... I wonder if he is gonna do bleached tips again.

Posted by streitenberger00

11:13 AM, Jun 19, 2008

How is Ichiro gonna handel meeting some truely great players in ATL? My bets are on a exploding head.

Posted by ajdaddy

11:14 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Too bad. Seemed like a good guy who cared. However, I was never a fan of his lineups or how he managed his bullpen. I know I'm flogging this, but time to look at Bobby V!!!

Posted by Montucky

11:15 AM, Jun 19, 2008

HOORAY!! MAC ATTACK is gone.

As fans, we could not have imagined a coach WORSE than Grover, but WOW, sure enough the M's land one. Mac got his shot, and he was terrible. This move could have been made MONTHS ago.

On a side note: Raul needs to move NOW. His veteraness in the outfield is truly hampering our future plans. Come on Baker, you know its true. I mean, while we're pointing fingers...

And Bloomquist IS HORRIBLE in CF. Ichiro makes those plays over your head. Willie just runs back there and has NO CLUE where to put his glove. I think he just tries not to get hit with the ball. He should be on our 41 man roster, oh that's right...there's only room for 40...dang, sorry guy.

Posted by gone-shootin

11:17 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lance - Thanks for the breakdown on Lincoln's exact role. You provided good perspective of exactly how things work.

We all know Lincoln is a VERY smart business man, having headed up Nintendo for Yamauchi. Hopefully you're right and he'll now sink Armstrong.

Posted by Nat

11:20 AM, Jun 19, 2008

DownOnStrikes- I know literally nothing about Riggleman, but you don't have to worry about him- he won't be here next year, even IF the FO says he'll be in the running so as not to appear impolite. Riggleman is strictly interim though.

With a new GM to be hired in the very near future they will undoubtedly let him or her make the call for a new manager.

Posted by Stu

11:23 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Stottlemyre wishes he still worked for Steinbrenner.

Mojo Rising.

Posted by Maudlin Fan

11:24 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Day off for you, Sick? I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that the players aren't working hard. You would think the simple embarassment would do that much. They just aren't a well-put-together team that is poorly managed. Looks like that is going to change. No more bringing in knuckleball pitcher with the sacks loaded and the game on the line in the 8th?

Posted by Adam

11:24 AM, Jun 19, 2008

WOW. I really thought Mac would last the rest of the year.

Good to see come major changes being made, but as someone pointed out, until Howie is gone, or until he openly states that he'll allow the new GM complete autonomy (or as close to it as possible), I'm not overly excited.

Now, once Sexson and Vidro are gone, then I might get a bit happier...

Posted by RaoulDuke37

11:25 AM, Jun 19, 2008

McLaren put lipstick on the pig...

Posted by JD

11:25 AM, Jun 19, 2008

BOBBY V IN 09!

Posted by Ziasudra

11:26 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Pure and simple - those of us who like Willie do so because he always gives 110% of what he has. He may not have as much as others, but 110% times 50 is better than 50% times 100.

Posted by dc

11:28 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The issues lie with Sexson and Vidro and the other players at this point. I would have liked to see them stick with McClaren as the kids are brought up.

But then again, maybe it had to happen. Sorry to see it, however. Would much rather hear of the departure of some players first.

Posted by kramer

11:29 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To the people bitching about Armstrong and Lincoln. Aren't these the same guys that gave us 2001? Were they not instrumental in bringing Ichiro to us?

They made a mistake with Bavasi and maybe they stuck by him for too long, but it is a GOOD thing for ownership to show a little patience. They gave Bill the reigns and let him do his job, THAT IS A GOOD THING! I for one don't want a team that is constantly screwed up by an owner meddling in things they dont understand. It would be like watching the Royals every year.

This was all Bavasi, he didn't have patience with Melvin, I can't recall a single move he made at the big-league level that made sense.

He had no patience with Melvin, signed Weaver based on watching the world series the previous year, Sexson's contract, trading one Guillen and letting the other go, all the way up to signing a catcher to a huge deal at the beginning of his contract year with a young stud catcher ready to come up.

You all act like this ownership is as bad as the Detroit Lions for crying out loud! Get over it and have a little faith in the group that actually stepped up and kept the Mariners from fishing in Tampa.

Go find some cheese to go with that whine.

Posted by Novice

11:30 AM, Jun 19, 2008

well said. Bloomquist just knows how to carry that leadership role on the field and off. I would expect to see him as the starting CF the rest of the year. with Ichiro now planted in RF this could be a big boost to the team, especially the defense.

Posted by Swung On And Belted

11:31 AM, Jun 19, 2008

June 16th, Bavasi gets canned

June 19th, McLaren gets the boot

June 22nd, Armstrong?

Yeah I'm dreaming, I know.

Posted by Lance

11:35 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lincoln goes only when/if Ninendo sells the team, or Nintendo becomes disenchanted with his job, but he's done a lot of great things for them in the past so I'm sure he'll get cut some slack.

Armstrong has no such safety net. Only what assistance he provided to get the Japanese ownership on board and approved by Major League Baseball.

One other thing. Riggleman has managed the Padres and Cubs in the past, leading the Cubs to one playoff appearance.

Posted by kaseyswagger

11:35 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Yeah Mclaren was a nice guy but his track record as a manager called for this firing.b

Posted by John_S

11:37 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To KRAMER - Mr Yamauchi and Bob Engle's international staff brough Ichiro in not Lincoln and Armstrong.

Gillick built the 2001 team not Lincoln and Armstrong.

Get your facts straight before you go on a rant about supporting the inept front office of Lincoln and Armstrong.

Do you know how many winning seasons that team has had with Armstrong at the helm? 4, FOUR, Quatro.....however you want to say it.....it's 4 in over 20-30 seasons.

Yes thank you Mr Yamauchi for saving our team. No thanks is needed for the arrogant Lincoln and the idiotic Armstrong. If they did what was best for the team they would step down both of them!

Posted by Lucifer

11:38 AM, Jun 19, 2008

John McLaren,

We feel for ya, but it is time you returned to a more comfortable level of competence - Bench Coach. May you soon find your destiny as someone's Bench Coach - Good Luck.

PS - I am happy that you are free to chose another position, however, I am withholding celebration because you are a good man and I hope that you land on your feet somewhere in a more suitable position to your skill level and talent.

Posted by Corey Miller

11:39 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To all who read this blog...

It is with great sadness today that the Mariners fired John Mac. No one wants to see a man or woman lose their job. Least of all a job that puts you in the public eye. I sincerely hope that JMac never took anything personally regarding the ranting and raving we as fans did here on this blog and in any blog covering the Mariners.

Sometimes we get ourselves into situations through no fault of our own and quite honestly I still feel that has happened to JMac. I felt no remorse over the Bavasi firing because he was the architect of this madness. JMac just happens to be the fall guy.

Thank you JMac for trying to produce wins which you truly couldn't do since you didn't play a single position on the field. Perhaps managing isn't your forte. Perhaps you are closer to a Don Zimmer than a Joe Torre. Either way it was never meant to be. Best wishes to you and your family.

As for the Mariners orginization, I welcome your bold moves for change but you have yet to make the boldest moves yet. You have let go the architect of your current demise. You have let go the manager of a team which shouldn't be allowed to play in the major leagues. What you have failed to do is let go of the players who are the cause of this frustration and suffering.

What do we as fans want to see next? We want to see a change in the clubhouse beyond management. We want to see the players that cause us so much angst be let go. Say goodbye to Jose Vidro and Richie Sexson. Bring up some kids from the minors who want to play every day. I do not care if the Mariners lose 90 more games. I want the Mariners to be fun to watch again. I want them to be worth turning on the TV set for. I want to see exuberance in their eyes and hope in their step. Do you remember at all the two months of joy a guy like Bucky Jacobson brought to the team? He was a Buhner clone...fun to watch...played with fire...lived for the game. I have seen flashes of this in Yuniesky Betancourt, Felix Hernandez, JJ Putz and not long ago, Ichiro.

Your mission Mariners FO is to bring that spirit back. People love Seattle. The fans love Seattle. Our spirit permeates the very consiousness of its teams.

Best of luck and god speed...

Corey Miller
United States Air Force

Posted by GeoW

11:39 AM, Jun 19, 2008

I have to say that I'm surprised. I thought they'd give McLaren some more time. But, when a team quits, the manager is fired. I guess it's as simple as that. The whole idea for this year was to give McLaren his own team, his own spring training, let his make decisions, etc. The result is a diaster, and he's got to go.


There have been a number of poor game decisions from McLaren, poor decisions that have been pointed out over and over in this blog. And very, very few times when he pulled just the right strings and came up golden.

Posted by Beelzebub

11:40 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Three down, particularly the big two, now when do we get rid of Sexson and Vidro. Send out the pink slips please!

Posted by Everett fan

11:42 AM, Jun 19, 2008

To lailaihei (10:13) You may be right, Lopez being our 4th best defensive player. But the drop off between #3 and #4 (or, #5) is a chasm. All of the 6 others after Ichiro, Beltre, Reed, would be at the very bottom of the league for their defensive position. You've compared Lopez to those with barely little league skills - yeah, he may be better than those, but he's still the worst 2nd base defender in the AL right now.

Posted by Husky Fan In New York

11:42 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Lance, you couldn't be more correct. Lincoln needs to get rid of Armstrong soon...at the very latest, after the season.

Posted by scrapiron

11:42 AM, Jun 19, 2008

For all of you speculating on a new manager: Please, no. We need to focus our efforts on finding the right GM for the job, and let the GM pick his own manager. One thing we need to learn is that a key ingredient to a successful organization is that the GM and manager are on the same page and work together. Like I said before, McLaren likes speed and defense. He never got that team from Bavasi, couldn't adapt, and didn't succeed.

Piniella and Gillick worked well together. Pat knew what types of players Lou needed to be successfull and he went out and built a roster of those types of players.

Let's learn from our past success, pick a GM that has the best "plan" for long-term success in Seattle, and let him pick a manager that can help execute that plan once the roster construction is complete.

Posted by Old Nick

11:43 AM, Jun 19, 2008

The notion of 110% is a fantasy, you can only give all that you have which is by definition 100%! Let's try and live in reality please.

Posted by Truth

11:43 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Why does everyone keep saying Mac was a nice guy? Every time he's on TV he acts like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum. Maybe he could be a motivational speaker and talk to at risk youths. "You kids gotta BUCKLE IT UP."

To all the Willie cheerleaders, 110% of suck is still suck.

Posted by keep wfb on the bench

11:45 AM, Jun 19, 2008

"Pure and simple - those of us who like Willie do so because he always gives 110% of what he has. He may not have as much as others, but 110% times 50 is better than 50% times 100."

But 110% of the time he sucks all the time.

Posted by jim_lundquist

11:45 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Bavasi, McLaren down. Geoff should be next. He was leading the playoff bandwagon in the offseason. Anyone that fans the flames of incompetence should go down with the ship.

Posted by FingersXed

11:46 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Do you think Baltimore would accept a trade of:

Adam Jones, Tillman for Bedard?

Posted by scrapiron

11:46 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Corey Miller (11:39) - Well put. I second that.

Posted by khardy

11:46 AM, Jun 19, 2008

HIRE JOEY CORA FOR NEXT SEASON!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

He’s like Ozzie Guillen without the Hugo Chavez-like temper.

Stark’s column is chalk full of Mariner goodness BTW. Including more Griffey to Seattle rumors.

Posted by keep wfb on the bench

11:48 AM, Jun 19, 2008

"Geoff should be next. He was leading the playoff bandwagon in the offseason. Anyone that fans the flames of incompetence should go down with the ship."

You're off your rocker my friend. Geoff Baker is the only reason I still follow this Mariner team.

Posted by Fortified Milk

11:48 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Corey Miller, your letter was about a touching as changing diapers with brownstains. Please dont feel sorry for these hacks, you are embaressing everyone.

Posted by Houston M's Fan

11:51 AM, Jun 19, 2008

It's about TIME! I was ticked when they signed McLaren and passed up Dusty Baker. They should have at least attempted to get him, but I somehow doubt they even picked up the phone. I keep hearing all of this crap about Hargrove wearing out the pitching staff and that's why we faltered last year, but he had no fire to light under these guys last year and it was even more evident this year. I don't think Bavasi should have been canned, it should have been Mac!

Posted by Kramer

11:53 AM, Jun 19, 2008

John_S - Mr Yamauchi and Bob Engle's international staff brough Ichiro in not Lincoln and Armstrong.

Gillick built the 2001 team not Lincoln and Armstrong.

Get your facts straight before you go on a rant about supporting the inept front office of Lincoln and Armstrong.
_______________________________________________

Yeah, the front office has nothing to do with that part of the business....your right, they are just the president and ceo. Maybe we should hire the people that authorized those decisions or find their bosses to run the organization. Can you tell me who that would be since I can't get my facts straight?

Posted by scrapiron

11:54 AM, Jun 19, 2008

It was rumored that Sexson and Vidro have been released, but KJR just confirmed that both players are on the plane now heading to Atlanta.

Posted by gone-shootin

11:54 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Kramer - you're a dumbass.

2001? That's what you want to hang your hat on?

Don't you remember what REALLY HAPPENED in 2001?

Pinella AND Gillick wanted another big bat; any big bat. Management wouldn't budge.

That started the end of the Pinella era.

Do you even know that EVERY PLAYOFF TEAM THE MARINERS HAVE HAD was under Pinella?

Pinella won IN SPITE OF THIS MANAGEMENT GROUP, not because of it.

Want to recount the history minus Gillick and Pinella?

How's Woody Woodbard? Jimmy Lefebvre? Bill Plummer?

Funny... Melvin and Pinella both won after leaving Seattle.

Gillick is back challenging for an NL East title.

You're a joke. Get your facts straight.

Armstrong has been the constant since 1984. They've had 5 winning seasons... 4 with Pinella.

Looks to me like it was ALL PINELLA AND GILLICK that has ANY WORTHWHILE accomplishments with this organization.

Oh, and I'm not a eastsider... I'll take Jack Daniels over wine, jackass.

Posted by Miles

11:55 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Just listening to the press conference, I was struck by Pelekoudas saying something to the effect that he wasn't ready to write-off any players. Makes me wonder what they expect to see from some of these players that they haven't already seen, particularly Sexson and Vidro.

Posted by Grandson

11:57 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Fortified Milk, haha what a goofy name.

Posted by Full Count

11:58 AM, Jun 19, 2008

Chris from Bothell, Betancourt comments passed on to me from post game comments from yesterday.

Posted by Kev

12:01 PM, Jun 19, 2008

How about Jay Buhner as the manager? I'm sure he light a fire under the team's behind.

Posted by jim_lundquist

12:02 PM, Jun 19, 2008

"wfb" It was tongue and cheek. For the record, I think Geoff is great.

Posted by Somms

12:03 PM, Jun 19, 2008

How is this Lincoln's fault? Maybe Armstrong, but people act like Lincoln want's to lose and makes all the wrong moves.

To me it's like asking for a whole new team to move here when we have had recent success. It's like we have short selective memory.

Posted by scottM

12:05 PM, Jun 19, 2008

John McLaren, the career baseball man, had his chance to lead a MLB team. To use a military analogy, he has proven himself over the years to be a great Major, but a poor General. He instilled neither keenness nor a find-a-way-to-win attitude in his players. Rather, he tried, too often to befriend the players and he made many key common sense blunders. Here's to hoping he lands on his feet as some team's Major.

Schadenfreuders rejoice.

Posted by gone-shootin

12:11 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Somms - Lincoln is Armstrong's boss right? Armstrong has been here since '84, right? And just curious, what recent success are you referring to? They haven't made the playoffs since 2001. They've had one winning season since 2001... and fired their manager (Melvin), who's since won a manager of the year award, and may well again this year.

So, what, exactly, is "very short term selective memory" over damn-near a decade?

Hopefully dementia isn't setting into this fan base... 2001 was long, long ago... and the key principles responsible for it's modest success (league record for wins but not even getting to the world series, let alone winning it is pathetic) - Pinella and Gillick - are gone and winning elsewhere.

So, to answer your questions... Lincoln has left Armstrong in this position... repeatedly... while others have come and gone and won elsewhere. Isn't that a reason, or is there no accountability at the top/ceo level?

Just curious.

Posted by SICK56

12:13 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Maudlin Fan @11:24 "Day off Sick...?"

Nope, no day off. I get to work the swing shift. You?

You think the players work hard? Ok, maybe some do. But from what I see, is far too many mental mistakes in the field, on the basepaths, at the plate and a overall lack of effort. I doubt that I am the only one.

A team that busts its ass each and every day does not make so many mistakes repeatedly. They take extra fielding practice, extra batting practice, extra running drills etc etc etc...

I agree, they are (were?) poorly managed, but the managment doesn't make the players listless and lazy.

Posted by Kramer

12:16 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Yeah, I'm sure that horrible front office has kept you from buying tickets huh?

If people turn apathetic then I say get rid of the owners, but we aren't, yet I keep hearing how we should blow the whole thing up from top to bottom. You smell blood and want to take everyone out and if you get your wish you will be the first one to bitch next year that we suck.

I would rather have people running things that have been there before and have learned from their mistakes than have someone else brought in to run the team with no past experience. And tell me one person with past experience that you can get to run the whole company that isn't already an owner or working on another team. You have a list of CEO's to replace Lincoln posted on your fridge?

Oh, and as far as facts go, in 2001, the general consensus about not making a trade at the deadline was that our team kicked ass and it was a good idea not to break up the chemistry. The reason Lou got pissed was the following year when we didn't do anything at the deadline when we really needed it.

Posted by The Centerfield Bum

12:18 PM, Jun 19, 2008

This is not a happy day for this Mariners fan and longtime season ticket holder.

John McLaren was with the M's and Lou Pinella for many years of successful baseball that he was certainly a part of. I liked Mclaren when he was Pinella's bench coach and I would have truly liked to have seen him succeed here as manager for a long time.

Unfortunately, things did not work out and I really don't think that McLaren is to blame.

It certainly isn't McLaren's fault that he inherited a dysfunctional roster coming out of spring training that lacked a productive first baseman, right fielder, designated hitter, and depth on the bench. The lack of productivity at first base, designated hitter and the bench predates McLaren's arrival, and I don't think there was anything he could do to improve that situation.

It wasn't McLarens fault that last year's all-star closer got a freak injury the 2nd game of the season and hasn't been right ever since which has resulted in a lot of late game leads being lost.

It wasn't McLaren's fault that a productive right fielder and the only guy from last year's team that was willing to take on a leadership role in the clubhouse was not resigned for this year.

It certainly wasn't McLaren's fault that a talented young position player as well as a key productive veteran in the bullpen were traded away for a presumptive ace that turned out to be a headcase that is productive only on occasion.

Finally, it certainly wasn't McLaren's fault that there is very little major league ready talent available in Tacoma that can be called up to help the major league club this year.

I really have no argument with any of McLaren's managing this season. I think that he and the rest of the coaching staff has done about all they could do with what turned out to be a completely dysfunctional roster, which is how I've been explaining the roster to friends since about opening day.

I seriously doubt that "a new voice" is going to make much difference with the current M's roster.

Posted by Somms

12:22 PM, Jun 19, 2008

I was talking about last year being a good year. 2001 was a GREAT year. I don't think we need to gut everything when we were able to win last year, that's the selective memory I was talking about.

And Bavasi was the one that fired Melvin, right? I don't think Lincoln makes that call it would go to the GM.

Posted by John_S

12:22 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Kramer - just because they hired Gillick does not mean that those two built the team. Gillick built the team and signed the players not lincoln and armstrong.

Lincoln and Armstrong are the ones who did not want to go out and get a bat in the 2001 season.

Lincoln and Armstrong are the ones who have the edict on signing "good guys" with average talent rather so the team can have the "Fun Lovable" tag on it.

Ask Gillick the reason why he left. Ask Piniella why he left. As Griffey why he wanted to leave.

If you want to play it your way and go with your line of thinking, Lincoln and Armstrong should get the credit for hiring Gillick they are the ones who hired Bavasi and ruined this team. They should get as much if not even more of the blame since they are the ones who hired Bavasi.

Posted by AZ Mariner

12:26 PM, Jun 19, 2008

McLaren is a good baseball guy that the organization needs. Maybe not the best Manager as he seemed too close to the players.

If there was an option to keep him around in another capacity, they should have explored it (and maybe they did but he wasn't willing to).

Good luck, McLaren and thanks for your commitment to the M's all these years!

Posted by Kramer

12:32 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Kramer - just because they hired Gillick does not mean that those two built the team. Gillick built the team and signed the players not lincoln and armstrong.

That's my point! Just because they hired Bavasi doesn't mean they built the current team either. They make the decisions based on what they think will work and it didn't this time but it did last time, that's the way it goes.

They also didn't have a problem signing big names (or what was perceived as big free agents) during the Bavasi era. You also can't have it both ways when you say that people need to stop going back to the 2001 season when siting the team success if you keep bringing up 2001's trade deadline. The reason we lost in 2001 had more to do with 9/11 than a bat and as I said earlier, our team kicked ass that year and no one blamed them at the trade deadline for not picking someone up, it was the following year that they dropped the ball.

Posted by ttaylo

12:33 PM, Jun 19, 2008

I feel for McClaren. He waited his whole career to get a chance and now he's probably done. Didn't even get a full year in as a manager.

But this was a no brainer to me. The Mariners had won 8 in a row and were in first place if I remember correct when Hargrove walked. They played sub-500 ball under McClaren for the remainder of the year. He's fortunate they didn't fire him after that pathetic showing last August/Sept.

After what happened this spring, it was an absolute no brainer. He was not adding any value.

Posted by little jerry

12:36 PM, Jun 19, 2008

have been a M's fan for ages, this is one of the tougher stretches I've seen. I know this has been brought up in other forums, but is there something about Safeco that puts the nail in the coffin of a players career? Players get old and their skills decline and every team has burn outs but have the M's had a greater number of high level washouts like Cirillo, Sexson, Speizio, Cameron, Aurilia, Ben Davis, Everett, Lawton, Vidro, Wilkerson, Reed, name any of the catchers in the last five years since Wilson, free agent pitchers (Safeco is a pitchers park, right?) or any of the prized young pitchers in the farm system that wouldn't be traded by Gillick...you do have to use a lot of bodies to be successful in baseball, it just seems that the M's bodies are dead on arrival and Safeco is the cold storage for them.

Posted by Bob

12:43 PM, Jun 19, 2008

It is about time! Now let's get rid of some of the dregs of the team. Like Sexson, Johjima, maybe even Dickey. The team needs to build its confidence and these guys are not doing that. Trade off Lopez, Vidro and Balentyne, as well as Ibanez and Beltre. Use Morrow as the closer this year and groom his as a starter for next season. Forget about Putz as he is done.

Posted by Heliczech

3:08 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Big Mike back!!! :-D

Posted by Jim

3:10 PM, Jun 19, 2008

"Why doesn't Howard, John and Chuck take a look at themselves in the mirror and practice accountability?? Can they say they have done their best, and don't deserve the same fate?? Its time boys, take a hike! Quit blaming everyone else."


Howard Lincoldn, CEO. Check.

Chuck Armstrong, President. Check.

John....? Incidentally, who the heck is John?

Did you mean John Ellis, former chairman(or chairman emeritus, as they call him on the team website)?

If so, I can't think he has much say in the day-to-day operations of the team. He's retired, and pretty much the only thing he does, I'd imagine, is sit on the Board of Directors of the Baseball Club of Seattle and go to meetings once a month, and try not to fall asleep as minority Chris Larson nudges him in the elbow.

Speaking of those guys, what do the minority owners and the rest of the people on the Board of Directors of the Baseball Club of Seattle have to say, or do they have a say at all? I wonder if Larson will ever get a chance to buy the team--he'll need to have Nintendo offer to sell, first, I guess.

Who knows, maybe we'll see something like that happen soon.

Posted by Jim

3:12 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Er, that's minorioty owner Chris Larson. Whoops, sorry.

Posted by DrNaka

4:32 PM, Jun 19, 2008

A question to Baker-san:

As gone-shootin-san pointed out it is time to interview Mr. Yamauchi and Directors on Board that is CHRIS LARSON et all.

The DoB is responsible that thety elected Lincoln as CEO and Chairman.

Why does the Seattle papers not interview these people?

Posted by saber rattler

4:33 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Macs WORM rating was -2.0 (Wins Over Replacement Manager).

Compare that to Scioscia's +11.00 for the Angels and you can see that players only can do so much with what they have to work with...

Posted by Jim M

5:59 PM, Jun 19, 2008

I can't stand the front office as much as anyone here, but if we're going to dog them let's at least be fair about it. In Chuck Armstrong's tenure there have been 10 winning seasons, (not 4 or 5, as some have said in this thread.) Further, since 2001, there have been 3 winning seasons (2002, 2003 and 2007), not just 1. This wasn't that long ago, people... although after this season it definitely feels like a long time ago.!

Posted by rono

7:37 PM, Jun 19, 2008

Bring Jr back.would be the only reason anyone would care to watch a Mariner game the rest of the year.

Posted by doug

8:30 PM, Jun 19, 2008

when is ichiro getting fired

Posted by Dave from the coast

11:45 PM, Jun 19, 2008

am also surprised Mr. McLaren got axed so soon. General Patton himself couldn't make this a winning team. I have also wondered about Safeco field...why do formerly great Mariners players wimp out at Safeco...only, I'd like to expand that...is there something in the Seattle Air? Is there a hex because of long-brewing controversy about taxpayer money regarding the building of Safeco Field? Perhaps Safeco Field was built on top of an old burial ground, so all that play there fall on some sort of permanent hex. I have no idea what the answer is. Especially when former Mariners mostly all seem to be doing at least fairly well. I think McLaren did the best he could with what he had. Sure, Mac made bad judgments, as we all do. But to lay all this on McLaren is Just Wrong. The rest of this season is gonna be REAL interesting...let the carnage begin. Anyone got Vegas odds on who's gonna go before who else goes? This Mariners' season was truly made for the National Enquirer, or the dearly-depated Weekly World News. Ichiro? He's just a member of the team, nothing more or less. He's talented, yes, but he alone cannot make this team win. Beltre is okay, and Raul has gotten really good over the years; he's solid, even if he's not the most fleet-footed M. "Big Richie" (remember last year's M's commercial) just confounds me. He never looks like he takes a good swing at a baseball. Is it because he's so doggone tall? I don't know. I DO know that if the M's had possessed COMPETENT STARTING PITCHING, they would have at least COMPETED to a degree, something they're not doing very well these days. When yer winning, everyone loves everyone, and Nobody Loves You When You're Down and Out. In short, had this team played up to its expectations, NO ONE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AXED. And I honestly don't know if it's possible to "make" a player play better than he is playing. I don't want to say someone "sucks"; I hate that word. But...whatever it is...it ain't working. Is there a mentality among Seattle Fans such as "let's go get a mocha and catch a Mariners' game, and win or lose, we'll have a good time". Have you SEEN the fans at Safeco? They just SIT there! What a lifeless place to play baseball! If you can call it "baseball". And that's a mighty big "if".

Posted by PKKing

10:39 AM, Jun 20, 2008

Good for you!!! The Mariners should be like the Rays this season, getting paid off for many years of crap baseball, but no, lets give the job to a man who basically wet himself when they told him he got the job. Good night and good luck McLaren!

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