The desire isn't in the team. I don't know who you turn to to get it, but its not there.

Somone said something to spark a little more intensity out of Sexson and Putz who showed a lot of energy defensively in that last NYY game. Putz blew the save, but his pitches were not that bad and the effort he put in to that grounder by matsui was very encouraging, would have been nice to see from Ichiro on that double, but at the same time, I really think they both thought the other was going to get it, those plays happen.

I don't know who has to push the last step, but the fact of the matter is, we aren't winning the division this year. And as much as I hate to admit it, firing Mac won't solve that. What it will do is send a message, you blow it, you're gone. Maybe we should fire Mac the day after Randolph gets canned then hire Randolph...

It will be cleaning day before this year is out and a lot of players will be gone, you have to believe that, who those players are, I can't predict yet, but it wouldn't suprise me to see Beltre and Bedard mixed in there. We could get some very strong pro-level ready talent in exchange for them, even better than Adam Jones.

I look forward to seeing Griffey return and who gets shipped and what young talent we get back. Accoutnability is not on this teams priority list anymore, they just don't care.

I was thinking this as I woke up this morning. (I know it is weird to contemplate the Mariners in my sleep!) What would happen to most of us if we did not perform in our jobs?

I agree with bringing Felix back in to pitch the 8th, but once it was apparent that he was getting tired and knocked around, you have to bring in a fresh arm from the pen. Maybe if we were up 3 or 4 runs you leave him in there to try and work out of it, but not in a tie game.

Ms are going down the same path as the Sonics early this decade. Same failed upper management making the same poor choices. When they start trying to justify decisions rather than results there is a serious problem in accountability as you have pointed out. As long as Bozo Bavasi and McLaren keep up the "gee, I thought this would work" mantra they keep getting a hall pass.

It was good to see Ichiro* show some pride and go "all out" for that ball yesterday. Once every half dozen years isn't good, but it's a step in the right direction. Could it be a guilty conscience for losing the game in New York? One can only hope.

The finger is pointed directly at Bill Bavasi. His recent comment that players need to get in each others face clearly reinforces his lack of baseball or sports knowhow. Players need to support and encourage each other not be yelling at each other. When a player needs to be 'chewed out' its the coach, or in bb, the manager who gets on the case. Changing managers, or even player personnel, will not provide a lasting solution. Only a GM who knows the game and how to make intelligent, successful personnel decisions can salvage the Mariners.

Actually, looking at it again, I'm not sure who would be more proud of that catch. Manu "euro flopper" Ginobili, or Eric "cartwheel after the throw" Byrnes. LOL

To do list:

Fire Bavasi and his claque ASAP before they can make more dumb trades and signings.

Let Fontaine run the entry draft.

Trade ASAP for young talent Ibanez, Vidro, Washburn, Batista. If Sexson can be traded, do it. If not, designate him for assignment to get him off the field.

Convert Morrow to a starter, beginning here or in AAA.

Play the remainder of 2008 with prospects obtained in draft and brought up from Tacoma.

Find a local buyer to replace Nintendo. So long Lincoln.

I just don't want to have my intelligence insulted by constant tinkering at the bottom of the lineup. Do something significant.

Vidro CAN'T stay in the 3 hole...runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs last night, our #3 hitter steps to the plate...sacrafice bunt? Yes, thats right, it was Vidro, you can't let him swing away, he has to sac bunt, great call, but a legit #3 would have been able to swing and drive in the runs. Sad state of affairs.

I think the thought of players needing to be motivated by someone else to perform well is ridiculous. If that is the case.. then they have some serious issues and not just related to baseball.

McLaren is the least of the Mariners troubles. Sure he has made some odd decisions hear but in most cases the games are being decided long before his decision making even come into play.

The players on the field are the problem and the man who built the team should be held responsible. The lineup is a complete joke. Vidro as a MOTO hitter?? WOW. This offense relies too much upon what Ibanez does. If he goes off then the team scores... if not, well then not so much.

This lineup needs guys that can actually draw a walk, work counts and take advantage of mistakes.

I think everyone should be accountable. Starting with the players, then Bavasi, Lincoln & FO, McLaren.

To the tune of American Pie.

My Oh My, the Mariners *sigh*
The pitching, hitting and fielding went dry
And pssed off fans saying Richie good-bye
Sayin this is the last year I buy
This is the last year we buy

Geoff, you're exactly right, this is not an organization dedicated to winning. This absolutely starts at the top, as stated many times before. Most likely with Lincoln, absolutely with Armstrong. They want to win, but Lincoln is a buisiness man first, while Armstrong is just not a baseball guy. If the president of BASEBALL operations is not a good baseball guy, then you've got a problem.

Obviously the blame trickles down. Bavasi was allowed to put together a roster filled low upside and lots of potential collapses. Obviously, we're seeing a worst case scenario here. He has glaring weaknesses and has made the same mistakes time and time again. He needs to go. I'd say his job is safe until the end of the season, because firing your general manager mid-season serves no purpose.

McLaren most likely hasn't had a huge impact in the Mariner's utter collapse. I still don't think he's a very good manager (Cairo batting second? Vidro batting third? Vidro batting third, as your DH, and bunting runners over? WTF?), but he doesn't deserve what the Mariners should do: fire him. Seven in a row, most of which have been ridiculous losses, is enough. I think that just the fact that SOME drastic move was made, is important to say: this is not acceptable.

If not firing the manager, you need to make some player moves (if not doing both). Vidro is magically crushing the ball so he's OK for the moment. Sexson? I'm sorry, a third of the way through the season and his bottom line resembles last year. He's not supposed to be an everyday player for this team if he hit .200 this year. I don't care about some garbage time home runs here and there, he needs to be benched. He is not contributing to this team. Too bad we don't have a replacement (Ibanez 1b; Reed LF/RF).

This was a bit of a ramble, but after the last four seasons and this one, assuming no miraculous comeback -- nobody deserves to keep their jobs when October comes around.

Yes, they need accountability, but let’s explore the manager’s options.

Each day when I check in on the Mariners, I’m disappointed to again see Sexson at 1B. How many more times will this rally killer trudge off the field after flailing at a pitch out of the strike zone – or watching one with bat on shoulder? He once was a force, but now a farce. But what solutions does McClaren have at his disposal? Cairo? Most wonder why he’s even on the roster. Vidro? A symbol of what’s wrong with the team – a declining, slow singles hitter with no upside. Raul? Then who plays LF? Griffey? Please don’t mortgage the future (again) for nostalgia’s sake. The pieces just aren’t there for significant, positive change. (And Greg Norton wouldn’t have prevented this catastrophe.)

Yuni, Lopez, and Beltre are decent players but their low OBP reduces their effectiveness. And the supposedly great defense up the middle has cost them several games. Would anybody argue that Bloomquist would be an upgrade? Bavasi has left the manager with no better options here.

Balentin represents the one significant attempt at holding a position player accountable.

Ichiro is underperforming but is anybody arguing he should be benched or traded?

For absolutely no performance-related reason, Johjima was just given a three-year contract. Now that smacks of NO accountability. Even though a player is aging and showing indications of decline, the team, under no pressure whatsoever to do so, offers him a three-year deal. Merry Christmas and goodbye to any accountability for the next three years. Even more puzzling is that the Ms are supposed to be loaded at catcher in their system. They brought up their future, but used him at DH.

Speaking of DH, we need some pop at this spot in the order, not Vidro. Need to go out and find somebody, either on the farm or a FA. (Are the Ms better off with Vidro than Oakland with Frank Thomas?) Raul could fit here if a prospect is given a shot in LF.

Starters? Why not try Morrow in the rotation and put Batista in the pen? Might help, can’t hurt. It’s something to try besides trotting out a disaster every five days and watching the young relievers walk the first batter they face in crunch time. I don’t agree that we should give up on Washburn…..as a fifth starter, he’s better than the other options.

Yes, there are a few reasonable moves to make, but, this team has been built by Bavasi and he’s responsible.

The most reasonable accountability: a new GM in 2009. Six grim years is more than enough.

Good article, as is the similar one by Jerry Brewer. I've only watched a few minutes of the past couple games, and plan to do the same for the foreseeable future. Watching this nightmare day after day after day is really no fun, and I find myself checking in each new game just to see if something has changed. If they can't be bothered to address the real problem, then I see no reason to give them my time, attention or money.

Blow it up...

As long as fans continue to fill up the stands, there is no real incentive for a change. I agree with those who say "stay home." The first to go must be Bonehead Bavasi who engineered the mess. Then Sexson, Vidro, Cairo, and Washburn must go. Bring back Clement and anyone else who is young and wants to win. But it's not fair to the people of Seattle and the Northwest to have to endure this mess. Just stay home.

Thank Geoff, I am so happy to actually see a member of the media write the words that we all know to be true, "That is not an organization dedicated to winning".

Keep up the good work.

Geoff, you thought they'd be a contender? Who did you think would drive in runs?

Attn: Ichiro - please do continue to be ticked off. For as long as it takes. And start directing that at some of your teammates too. It'd about gddmd time.

This is an organization dedicated to profits and when Safeco was handed to them, they knew all they had to do was act like they wanted to win. Going out and hiring Bavasi and McClaren makes it obvious people aren't doing their homework.
I can't believe the A's are a better organization than the Mariners but as long as they have a guy like Billy Beane (who I don't like to admire because he's smug and he works for Oakland) while we have a retread from the Grand Poobah Club (Bavasi), the A's are better than the Mariners. Heck, Tampa Bay and the Marlins run better ships than Seattle does. At this point, I want the Mariners to lose so someone is forced into changing out everyone from Armstrong on down.

Arrogance and lack of responsibility is a symbol of a team making lots, lots of money on a bad team because, Safeco is a great facility for a MLB team. Its a freakin money machine, until there profits and attendance are effected noting will change.

I love the Mariners and I hate to see them normally where Kansas City, Texas or Tampa Bay usually sit. I am and will be a continued fan. If they had Mojo before, it's definitely been pawned off for gas money. They don't have any spark. They play like they're nearly lifeless and just passing time. Until they fix that, they won't go anywhere. They have enormous talent, but we're finding out that can only take you so far. Their bullpen stinks and the starters aren't getting run support. There are many pieces here that aren't connecting. I'm pulling for them, but it's harder to watch a sinking ship.

Anyone know why Morrow wasn't brought in for that last out in the eighth? Two games in a row where he wasn't utilized.

Ichiro has great influence in the organization with Mr. Yamauchi, if he should go out of character and use it. A few well-placed words with the Japanese media contingent would go a long ways towards making much needed changes starting with removal of the diseased roots of the organization (Lincoln, Armstrong, Bavasi). From many reports, Yamauchi is a tyrant in his management style and would not be hesitant of initiating some immediate firings.
We're now a full game ahead of the Padres in the toilet bowl race for the 2009 #1 draft pick.

"That is not an organization dedicated to winning."

Rem acu tetigisti. You've touched it with a needle.

The first Truth is that this is an organization problem. It will not be solved without changes in the organization. That means no (just) replacing Bavasi and McLaren, but those who hired and retained them, Lincoln and Armstrong. The latter two seem to think they know how to build a team, since the 2001 edition won a lot of games. Having failed so many times before and after that year, it is clear they are clueless. They will keep hiring obedient managers to implement their clueless visions, which is pretty much all they've ever done. If winning is your goal, they are terrible executives, and the team cannot be expected to win so long as they hold the reins. If you want a winning team, Lincoln and Armstrong must step down.

But the second Truth is that this organization's interest is not winning. Its first interest is profits. It only cares about winning insofar as profits are affected. We are probably approaching that point (tempered by some long-term media deals that certain radio and cable networks must be regretting), which is why the concern is about winning games *now* -- in other words, keeping profits up *this year* -- rather than accepting that the season is lost and looking ahead to building a winner. (Send Morrow down to learn a starter's pitches, replace dead wood like Vidro, Bloomquist, Cairo and Sexson with tryouts, etc.)

Perhaps it will take Ichiro! demanding a trade to get Lincoln and Armstrong pushed out. I that's what it takes, it's worth it. The organization rots from the head down, and it views itself as a machine to make large profits from family entertainment, not a baseball club.

I wrote yesterday that I fully expected some roster moves prior to the game. A trade, DFA, minor league callup, something. Instead they trot out the same roster, with the same results. Sigh.

"Bill Bavasi is doing an outstanding job."
-Chuck Armstrong

"John McLaren is doing a good job."
-Bill Bavasi

"The players need to be accountable"
-Mariners management, numerous sources

So what do they do? Not even a major lineup change. Trot out the same roster and tell the players, "Do better."

The Mariners are now 16 games under .500. It's official. The season is over. The all-time record for most games under .500 to get to the postseason is 15, set by the 2005 Houston Astros.

The Goodship Mariner is sunk. Patch it up and get it ready to sail in 2009. Replace the old parts with newer ones.

Good post, Geoff.

Thank you.

Nothing will be done until people simply stop going to the games. Plain and simple.

The only good thing about last night's game was hearing Rick Rizz on the TV broadcast instead of Dave Simms.

Another day, another loss. Yes, blame the players. But this team lacks leadership and that starts at the top. I like Mac, but he needs to leave.

Amidst all this talk about who to fire, no one has ever said anything about the hitting coach or is two of them. Maybe a new hitting coach has some magic. Maybe he could shake up who I believe is worst rally killer on the team - Adrian Beltre. I doubt seriously that he has gotten more than 3 clutch hits all year long even though he has decent overall numbers and is fab on defense.

Didn't know much about Bill Bavasi prior to the recent nosedive of the Mariners. But, a lot is popping up about him now, and very little inspires confidence. Very reminiscent of a certain lame-duck president walking in daddy's shadow, and running businesses into the ground. Just read over Bavasi's wikipedia entry, and my favorite line is:
"Nonetheless, CEO Lincoln announced that Bavasi would be brought back in 2008 because he had produced a winning record in 2007."
Kind of tells you Bavasi's fate with the M's, in the not-too-distant future, doesn't it?

Who's accountable? You and your journalistic cronies are. You bought the B.S. of the F.O. like the corporate media bought the B.S. of the Bush administration in the lead up to the Iraq debacle. It is the same complacent mentality in both... The institution of the fourth estate is as incompetent and irresponsible in sports as it is in politics... at least in Seattle. Now you're all gnashing your teeth! A bit of a joke, don't you think?

"That's the symbol of complacency. That is not an organization dedicated to winning."

Welcome to 2000, Geoff.

Seriously, forget trying to bring Griffey back. Don't even consider having Buhner or Edgar Martinez get involved (as many people have started suggesting lately). Anyone who has ever been associated with this organization should not be allowed to have any input in what we do going forward. This organization is a total loser and I don't want anyone who has been a part of that loser to be involved in rebuilding.

Rebuilding isn't even the right word as far as I'm concerned. Rebuild what?

Accountable ??!! The only one accountable on this team is the team accountant. As long as they are making a PROFIT, all is well with this group. I only have one request,....Get us Mark Cuban. We need an owner who puts winning first!

When under achieving people are told the are doing "good" and "outstanding" what do you expect? #1 draft pick in '09: Good point. Ichiro's words would have great influence on Yamauchi. What would happen if he requested a trade to a contender?

Great post Geoff. You're right, no one is accountable right now. The Japanese ownership group probably doesn't even know what the M's record is right now.

I have to say that things have gotten so bad that I don't agree about keeping Bavasi through the draft. He can't be left in office even one more day. Every day he stays is another day he can make another mistake. Get rid of him now.

Although this whole mess really isn't Mac's fault, he should go to. Getting rid of Bavasi and Mac immediately is what needs to happen right now. I would even consider trading Bedard or Ichiro to the A's for Billy Beane.

"If you're going to blame, you have to make some moves."

Geoff, you nailed it. I suspect the ownership of doing nothing other than talking. Men of action, they are not.

Welcome to Seattle!

The GM puts this team together: Mac plays what he has. Bob Melvin is now a genius... Are we really this amnesiac? We ran one guy out of town without addressing the fundamental, organizational level problem. Firing Mac is throwing a guy under a bus. Is he the world's greatest manager? No. Scoring runs is the issue. Having Vidro bunt is a a sign that we are far too desperate to score runs. Bavasi needs to be fired and run out of town... He ruined this franchise, not Mac. Mac is a light cough, Bavasi's TB.

Comments:

1. People are saying "make a trade" - SERIOUSLY? You want to give Bavasi yet ANOTHER shot at a trade? As I said in another post, GMs put teams together based not only on skills, but intangibles like chemistry, leadership, work ethic, etc. GMs (should) know this when they go out into the market - so if there's a problem with clubhouse "leadership" or "chemistry" - well, who put this team together???

2. Howard Lincoln is a businessman, not a baseball guy. He is the representative of the ownership group. Armstrong is a baseball guy - the ownership group, thru Lincoln, hired him to make this business prosper. Armstrong is at the top of this mess. Armstrong, Bavasi and Mac are covering each other's hind ends and leaving the players out in the cold. Sad.

Good reading from Oakland. If only we had someone like this running our team

http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/5/26/535892/billy-beane-visits-athleti

I attended the game last night. First one in a month for me - not because I'm boycotting anything. I've just been out of town a lot. It was generally a very entertaining and well-played game. I enjoyed it very much, except for the top of the 8th. The M's defense was sharp. Ichiro had his highlight reel catch, but Beltre made a couple of amazing plays at 3rd. I continue to think he doesn't get anywhere near the credit he deserves here. But that's what happens when you play for lousy teams. Nobody is good enough to make up for 20 guys who aren't.

Boston won last night because they did what good teams do. They took advantage of what chance and the other team gave them - which really wasn't much. It isn't about drive or desire to win or competitiveness. None of those things can make up for lack of ability. Boston won last night because they are just better than us offensively. So is NY. Ditto Detroit. I don't think we need to resort to psychology, philosophy, metaphysics, or alchemy to explain this teams' failures. We just aren't that good. End of story. The talent difference between winners and losers in MLB is incremental, but all the pride and drive in the world isn't going to make it up.

Everybody makes their own baseball dollar decisions. I'll keep paying to see games as long as the games are entertaining and played right. I'm paying to see good baseball when I go to the park, not necessarily investing in a trip to the playoffs. Last night I got my money's worth, as I have most games I've seen in person this year (six I think so far). I've definitely felt used and foolish for wasting time on some of the road games I've watched on TV. I am going to stop appending the phrase "unless a miracle happens" when I discuss the '08 M's season. I don't really believe in miracles anyway. What sports fans call miracles are really just emergence of hidden potential, and I don't think these M's have enough of that. This team is going to get rebuilt during the second half and into next year. How and by whom is the critical question.

I'm sticking to my opinion that Bavasi cannot survive a losing season. I feel a little bad for him, because I actually like him. I think he's fair, honest, and as accountable as losing GMs get. I respected him for not throwing Mac to the wolves the other day, when that would have been an easy out. I think Mac's pretty ordinary as a manager, but he sure isn't responsible for the team's terrible record. No manager ever is. Managers don't lose games, they lose clubhouses, and that hasn't happened. When Bavasi said the problem was players and team makeup, not the field manager, he was really saying that it was a Bill Bavasi problem, and he was right. Nice guy or not, he hasn't done enough here with what he was given. Mac is a creature of Bavasi of course, so he won't ultimately survive a change at GM. The first crucial question is whether the change happens in July or Oct. If we are still a .sub .400 team at the AS break, I expect Bavasi will actually resign. In fact, I predict that. I don't know who will realistically be available at that point. It might not be possible to hire a new GM until the off-season, so we likely won't get a permanent new manager this year either, but that's not really important.

The important thing is what this team can do to get some power into the offense. We have nothing by AL standards, and very little in the pipeline. I think we take our chances with our pitching stable until that over-riding need is addressed. Who we keep and who we trade is everything. Only an angry idiot would "blow this team up" and have a firesale. Whoever takes on the rebuilding needs to be cold, calculated, dispassionate, and smart (disqualifying all of us). Some clairvoyance wouldn't hurt either. Some of that calculus involves assessing the desires of guys on short contracts - including Beltre and Bedard, two guys I would do almost anything to keep if possible.

I agree with all the calls for accountability, but to me that isn't synonymous with blame. Rather it means acceptance of failure and a real plan for improvement. I'm not interested in punishment, retribution, heads rolling or asses kicked, because none of that solves anything. Getting angry is counterproductive. Fans can be emotional. Management cannot. What we need is a rational plan, followed up by action. The maddening thing is, we are unlikely to know much at all about the future for another two months. It will certainly be an interesting second half this year, but sadly not for the reasons we all hoped back in March.

No truer words have been written all season, Geoff, than your last sentence: "This is not an organization dedicated to winning."

It's an embarrassment of epic proportions. One that could have been averted a year ago when bloggers were calling for top down changes even before Hargrove left.

But it is what it is. I can't be too unhappy with this state of affairs because it speaks glaringly to the need for change from the CEO and President on down. Is anybody hearing the fans?

When I heard Bavasi's speech to the media about holding the players accountable I laughed- after all, 'the best defense is a good offense.' So, lots of hot air coming from Bavasi. Same goes for Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln: blame, blame, blame falls on the players, easy marks for those clinging to their jobs. And STILL, at least outwardly complacent! Incredible!

As far as the lineup goes with these guys continuing to play everyday- well, it's good to see Ichiro finallly get mad. Wish some of the others would get on board. As you say, Geoff, the level of play has improved in the last two games, making them a little easier to watch (for however long we can stand it), even though the offense is not coming through consistently with RISP. As one of Red Sox Nation bloggers wrote re: the M's, "Their offense is helpless."

Play for pride, boys! At least until a new losing record is broken, the ship topples over, and the cries for a regime change are ultimately heard.

Great post, Geoff. Complacency--exactly--from top to bottom in this organization. You're right, it's appalling. There is absolutely no action that supports all of the talk from the front office. Wait, there is--let's run the same lineup out there and switch up the batting order!

It's exhausting to hear all of the excuses and justifications for poor performances. I don't care how much the likes of Sexson make--DFA him or bench him, hold him accountable for his inadequate performance. If Lopez misses a grounder, bench him for the rest of the game. Accountability. Change is not going to be achieved by doing the same talking and no acting that has dictated the direction of this club for way too long... It's unacceptable, period.

Um, if Bavasi assembled a team that is "underfperforming" is not that his fault. I wonder if he has even considered that he did a poor job of assembling a team.

I was particularly interested in Bavasi's frustration that no one predicted the Ms would be bad. That is sort of true but the only predictions of winning the west came after injurie to the the Angels. And there were plenty of folks who said the Ms wouldn't contend. Rob Neyer & Keith Law at ESPN to name two. Nearly all of the statistical projections said the Ms would be at or below .500. Perhaps Bavasi only hears that which he wishes to hear which is a pretty lousy attribute in a GM.

Hey Geoff, stop being a politician, open your eyes and make a statement. Is your job security really so fragile that all you can do is ask questions?

The encouraging sign I've seen in this team is two consecutive competitive games. Oh really? Did you miss the part where Mac foolishly left Felix in to face 9 batters long after his control expired?

If it wasn't for the posters on this blog, I wouldn't tune in. Have the balls to call people out, Geoff. Identifying the problem is the first step toward solving it. You're not helping anything with this softshoe song and dance.

So now it's Geoff's fault the M's are losing??? LOL It's amazing how irrational some fans can get.

Bavasi not only needs to go, he has to at this point. I agree with the concept that firing your GM at this point in the season does nothing. However, the one thing it might do is send a clear signal. The only signal being sent by upper management right now is that the current state of affairs is acceptable. How depressing this all has become, but hey, it's just baseball.

To me Ichiro's comments about the catch and how criticism motivated him to play harder, to risk injury to go after the ball no matter what.

Question. Why in the hell don't you play like that every freakin single day? Your job out there is to catch balls! My God! If ichiro is sluffing is it any wonder why the youngens up the middle sluff too?

When your star plays hard only after being embarrassed there is a serious problem and this started beforte Mac all the way back to when he got here.

Make no mistake this team is very sick and in need of surgery.

What does it mean to blame the players? If the players aren't playing up to what the front office expected of them, then you blame the front office for evaluating them incorrectly and, therefore, having incorrect expectations. Players are professionals. They do one thing, and that is play baseball. If your players are only giving half effort, then that is your fault for hiring players that do not give full effort.

If a company hires someone they think would provide X service, but he does not, and then the company loses money, the shareholders/owners of the company do not blame that worker. They blame the person who hired the worker. That's what an HR department is for.

Blaming the players is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. You can blame every player for not being better, no matter how good or bad they are. It is pointless.

Good column, Geoff.

Obviously, accountability for sub-mediocrity should be from the top down, but that's not going to happen. Maybe McLaren is gone after the season and that's probably it. Bavasi will hang around and sign a new crop of free agents, replacing Sexson with Giambi for the same dollars and prying Moises Alou from the Mets, or worse.

You're right in stating that this is not an organization dedicated to winning. If that's the case, then the fans are ultimately responsible by paying premium prices for crud.

On the money Geoff. Your best writeup to date.

The real issue here is the upper management team, it has been the same problem since 2001 when Armstrong and Lincoln refused to spend money in June to improve the team. They keep making the same mistakes, team personnel, managers and general mangers. The only real answer is Armstrong, Linclon and Bavasi must go in a wholesale purge as soon as possible

check it out if you can
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=20805

Geoff,

I remember reading a comment you made about the M's deciding to bring the outfield in order to not give up bloop singles to score runs. I searched the blog, but could not find it. With all the uproar about Ichiro missing Molina's double, could you comment on the outfield arrangement and any recent changes?

I am hoping to come up with some evidence that shows the coaching staff needs to be accountable.

Jeff Sullivan from LL on The Bunt:

"With two on and none out in the bottom of the sixth, John McLaren called for Jose Vidro to lay down a sacrifice bunt. That's all well and good, since Vidro sucks and all, and I would've been okay with it were it not for one little thing - Vidro was batting third in the lineup. John McLaren has so much faith in Vidro that he's been batting him third, but he has so little faith in Vidro that he had him bunt the runners over in a critical situation. We know it's not a matter of McLaren simply being comfortable bunting with anyone, since the other run producers (Beltre, Ibanez, "Sexson") have yet to put one down, so which is it, John? Do you think Vidro's good or do you think Vidro sucks? Because too often I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around what you're thinking."

Exactly right. Not that Mac's mismangement is wholly responsible for this organization but it often makes Mac an easy target.

Has there ever been a team in Seattle area sports history which has under-achieved more than the 2008 Mariners?

I have watched at least part of every game so far this season - but I am getting to the point where I am scared to watch Batista pitch.

Does anyone know what John McLaren's overall record between this season and last?

We all see that the accountability needs to go higher up. As to an organization that's not dedicated to winning, I don't think it's too harsh a statement, as the results bear it out.
I gave up my 15 game packs the year that the M's needed a lefty out of the bullpen, 7 lefties changed hands at the trade deadline, and the M's stayed pat. It's unfortunate, but there is a lack of desire in the organization, and it's filtered down to the players.
Contrast it with the Seahawks. Safeties giving up long passes? Cut Boulware, let Hamilin walk, bring in Grant, Russell, and Kearney. Running game stagnant? Cut Alexander, bring in Wahle, Jones, Duckett. If this was the M's, Alexander would get a contract extension, because he's 'one of our guys'.
To draw another comparison, look at the Detroit Red Wings. They've remade that franchise while still contending and grooming young talent. Once the old guys got too old, sentiment be damned, they were allowed to go. Manchester United football club does the same. The trick is recognizing when your assets are depreciating, and scouting youth! This franchise is too tied to the 'feel good factor', to players in the past like Boone, Edgar, Olerud, etc, and now to even bench guys like Wille Ballgame. They want everything to be sweetness and light in a highly competitive arena. The emphasis needs to be on performance, until that happens, it'll be more of the same. How do some of the player personnel people keep their jobs with 20 years of mild success? It's mind boggling.

12.5 out of first. 7.5 back of the THIRD place team. This team is going nowhere so it is time to look at the future so we can make assessments at the end of the year. It makes no sense to rid ourselves of Bavasi until after the draft and there probably aren't any candidates worth grabbing until after the season is over so we need to order Bavasi to order to Mac to ride out the storm with the kids.

Bench Sexson. He's not part of the future. Bench Vidro. My God, he'll vest at $8.5M for next year if we keep playing him. Stop right now. Get Clement up here and alternate him with Johjima and at DH. We have to decide if Joh will catch next year or Clement. Take a flyer on LaHair if you must. Or see if Raul can play first.

These moves don't make you any less likely to win now than the sub .400 team we are putting out every night.

Just because we won't make the playoffs doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the outlook of the franchise.

Donovan - Good post. Personally, I like McLaren, but I don't care for Bavasi. Nice person, but I don't think he is a good talent evaluator, and too often he takes the best offer available rather than assemble a team according to a gameplan.

I think the big issue is that McLaren and Bavasi don't work well together. Hargrove was a 3-run homer type of manager, so players like Beltre and Sexson were his kind of guys. McLaren is more of a agressive speed type manager. This team as it is assembled, doesn't maximize McLaren's strengths. Every manager has a "style", and the team needs to be assembled for that style.

Take a look at Lou Piniella. He likes a veteran team that plays good defense and is fundamentally sound. He succeeded in Seattle and now Chicago because the team is built that way for him. Put him in charge of young talent that occasionally makes rookie mistakes, and he fails. Look at his Devil Rays record.

Bob Melvin works well with younger players. He fails with the "old" Mariners, suceeds with the young Diamondbacks. So, you get my point.

The biggest clue was in ST when McLaren said he was going to be more agressive and run more. The blogs lit up with questions as to how he was going to do this. Now you see how. Ichiro runs more. That's it. If McLaren had more youth and speed, he could execute his gameplan.

So Bavasi should have had a 3-year plan. He obviously emphasized pitching recently. Fine. Build the team around pitching and defense. Find good, young, defenders with speed for McLaren. If someone becomes available that doesn't fit that template, pass.

7 in a row? You gotta be kidding me. This is ABSOLUTELY not a team dedicated to winning. Fans SHOULD be staying home, if they want change. The bottom line is, it is only the bottom dollar that will send a message to Yamauchi (an owner who, as far as I know, has never attended a game). Why do you think the Hawks have had so much success? Paul Allen bought the team partly because he was a FAN, and the team was in danger of leaving. When you have leadership and passion at the top, it trickles all the way down. And you better believe he's at Quest almost every week the Hawks are. The M's have been a constant source of frustration for me over the last two years now, becuse fans do not DEMAND their team be successul. Just seems like as long as they continue to get their garlic fries, pitch and stich night, and JJ Putz soul patch promotions (seriously?) winning comes second. I went to 4 games the first month of the season, and had full intention of becoming a season ticket holder, but I for one will not be spending another dime at Safeco until the organization shows some signs that they are serious about being a contendor, and not just the most family friendly team in baseball.

Adam,

Here is a quote from an article about the Reds calling up Bruce.

[i]Patterson, the current center fielder, went 0-for-8 in the Reds' 18-inning loss to the San Diego Padres on Sunday and has three hits in his last 34 at-bats.

[/i]

Maybe we can get him now?

Does anyone know what John McLaren's overall record between this season and last?

BlahBlahBlah--I believe Hargrove resigned last July 1, 2007. On that date, the M's were 45-33. The team finished 88-74, so during Mac's leadership the team went 43-41. Right now the record is 18-34.

So, if my math is correct, during the time Mac has been the manager, the M's have gone 61-75.

Look, we all know change is a-comin. The record alone dictates that. And sending players down or bringing up talent or switching batting order is just putting a band-aid on a much deeper malady. The real questions are: how long till the changes?and how far up will they go? And towards those questions, we fans can have very real and very immediate influence: with our pocketbooks.

I'm not saying stop watching the games. As long as the games on TV are free, knock yourself out, if you can stomach loss after loss (and really- does anybody out there tune into a Mariners game these days expecting a win?) .

Just stop attending games. Stop buying club merchandise. Take note of whose commercials are playing between innings, and avoid buying their goods for awhile. If you feel yourself faltering, just tune into another losing performance- that'll get you back on track.

The time for being complacent is over. The season is lost, and the sooner they start revamping for the future, the sooner fans, like myself, will return. Let's send them the proper message.

Apparently no one's accountable. Fact is, the manager should go, and after last season's late collapse and now this, the GM should go.

But it's really too bad we can't fire the owners.

The difference between the M's and a true powerhouse like the Yankees or the Sox or the Angels is that if you hit 200 for a while like Richie Sexson, they don't call you a starter. They call you a minor leaguer. (and soon enough, probably a Mariner.)

ditto, while I love Kenji, you don't bat around .200 and get a new long-term deal. Expecially when the M's hottest minor-league prospect is also a catcher.

Say what you will about the Angels or As or Yanks, but they don't get attached. You deliver, or you're out. You can't wait for the end of the season. This kind of run spoils the team. You have to act,

Well said Geoff.

Offensively, the M's have gotten very little production out of 1st base, right field and DH. Those positions should be the heart of the order. RH has been addressed. Prospects were called up, and the prospects are struggling as you would expect. A DH was called up and produced less than the old DH, so he was sent back down. There isn't anyone to call up at 1st base.

The M's have the best pitching coach in baseball and the staff is still a mess. The bullpen got screwed up when Morrow got injured in spring training, JJ went on the DL after game 2 and O'Flaherty just didn't have it this year. How many games have the M's lost in the 8th inning?

After getting off to a really good start, the starters have been mostly bad the last few weeks.

Would a different manager have changed any of the above? I don't think so.

While Pinella and Woodrow/Gillick brought a lot success to the M's on the field for many years, it is true that they left the franchise with an old team and a minor league system that was left barren by trading prospects for nearly washed up rental veterans. This left Bavasi and the M's with no option but to build the team around free agents. I don't believe that a team built around free agents has worked anywhere, and its not working here.

It seems to me that the easiest job in sports journalism is to call for a head to roll when you lack the inspiration to provide some real news, and I really could care less about what the New York media has to say about the sports teams out there.

The Seattle Times sports section is starting to degenerate into the rag that reflects the rest of that newspaper.

I'm not about to cancel my Mariners season tickets, but I am seriously considering dropping my 21-year subscription to the Times.

"I'm not about to cancel my Mariners season tickets, but I am seriously considering dropping my 21-year subscription to the Times."

That makes little to no sense.

Finally you nailed it on the head Geoff.The Organization comes out and talks tough but does nothing if your going to blame it on the players then what ever players you think are the problem do something with those players.

I'm glad the media is finally making the team look bad because thats probably the only way the team will do something so they dont get bad press.

By the way on Mike and Mike in the morning Gary Carter said that he would be interested in the Mariners job.

Team needs grit, fire and chemistry in the front office

Face it folks, the naysayers of last season who said this team was a paper tiger that had no business being in playoff contention in late August have been proven right.The free swinging hacks who make up the current M's got lucky for 3/4 of a season last year. Now the ugly reality is that any pitching staff can stop these bums, including that noted pitching powerhouse the Texas Rangers. This awful team, headed for four last place finishes in five years, belongs to Bill Bavasi and he should go down with it. He's a terrible GM.

Bavasi, stop posting as "The Centerfield Bum." At least have the stones to use your own name when posting to the fan blog.

Any GM that would draft Morrow over Lincecum needs to have their head examined. I said it then I said it now. Why wouldn't you draft the kid, local boy, lots of up side. Oh, that's right unorthadox wind up. If you can't make the right call on that one why would he be able to make a hard decision correctly. Bavasi is a clown. Get rid of him and half the players right along with him. Time to rebuild. But how do you rebuild when you have nothing. What a joke.

Hey Ken,

Bad guess!

I'll be at the game tonight enjoying my usual free beer and mixing it up with the bandwagon Red Sox fans tonight. Enjoy the game from your couch!

"I don't believe that a team built around free agents has worked anywhere, and its not working here."

- The Centerfield Bum

The Yankees, Red Sox, & Angels have been pretty successful building teams around free agents. Seriously, get a clue.

Not only should Bavasi et. al. be dumped now so as not to screw up the June draft, or any player transactions this summer, but also because this crew are likely to lose Hernandez, Bedard and Beltre at the end of 2009 unless they are signed pronto to onward contracts.

Why would these key players stick around in the midst of this chaos and mediocrity when they could get more money and play for a winner elsewhere?

It makes no difference whether McLaren, Riggleman or Perlozzo manages the 2008 Mariners the rest of the way. This season is gone. But it does matter, right now, that we get a professional replacement for Bavasi able to judge major-league player talent and value.

How many games have the M's lost in the 8th inning? After getting off to a really good start, the starters have been mostly bad the last few weeks. Would a different manager have changed any of the above? I don't think so.

Look, Mr Bavasi, I mean centerfield bum. Your argument doesn't support last night's debacle. Yes, we lost in the 8th, but not because of a poor starting pitching performance. We lost because the starter got fatigued, couldn't locate his pitches, then got hit, and the "manager" left the starter in way too long. So, to answer your question, yes, a different manager who would have had the sense to bring in a reliever sooner may well have changed the outcome last night.

Ever notice in a close game (the few we're even in) how McLaren ALWAYS seems to make the wrong decision, lol? (Bunting w/ Vidro, leaving Felix in too long, etc etc)

The dude is uncanny

Does-

"You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie"

ring a bell?

I have said it before and I'll say it again: Lincoln/Armstrong are the main culprits, and until they are gone, it is more of the same.

The fact that so little has happened (it is not early!!!) speaks directly to the incompetence and impotence of Lincoln/Armstrong.

Yes, Bavasi has earned a pink slip. McLaren never should have been a ML skipper, and needs to go. But so long as the two idiots mentioned above are running the organization, it will be a loser.

Who is accountable? You must be kidding. Since Gillick failed to trade A-Rod in his walk year the morons in the front office from Lincoln down to Bavasi are accountable and should be professional enough to resign.

The only way to fix this problem (Bavasi, Armstrong, Lincoln, Mac, most of the players) is to stop paying for tix and merchandise and stop going to games. You have to hit the owners in the wallet before they actually tune in and see what an embarrassment this team has become under Bavasi. It's a good thing I care a lot more about Football than baseball otherwise I be more ashamed. MARINER SEASON TICKET HOLDERS, STOP BUYING M'S TIX AND INVEST IN THE UW HUSKIES FOOTBALL AND BASKETBALL TEAMS, they may not be that good but they aren't overpaid underachievers.

Geoff,

Your comment about dedication to winning is long overdue.

Long, long overdue.

My guess is that as soon as management acknowledges (in private) that the season is lost concerning the playoffs, the focus becomes salvaging the season economically. I don’t know the financial breakeven point for bringing Griffey back, but I bet someone in the front office has done the math. I think it’s too much to expect, however that Junior will fill the performance gap or the leaderhip void for this group.
I agree a team needs more than pitching, defense and hitting to compete, much less contend. It needs desire, and a lot of it. No GM can go out and find 25 players that all have superb skills AND an uncompromising, maniacal desire to win every day. A team needs someone who won’t think twice about getting in a teammate’s face when there’s a letdown in focus or effort. That’s why a GM absolutely has to acquire at least one strong, vocal clubhouse leader, a role Jose Guillen filled superbly last year. The team lost its most cohesive component, and it wasn’t replaced.
Likewise, the Manager may not have to be vocal to be successful, but he does have to be uncompromising when it comes to winning and making tough decisions. I never understood the term, “Player’s manager.” If a manager wants to be liked by the players, he should find another line of work (like Bench Coach, for example). Players want a winning manager, one who will hold all players accountable for both effort and results, and who will show he is willing to make a potentially unpopular decision if it will help them win.
Superb playing talent is always in short supply. I’m not convinced that the preseason expectations were beyond the talent level of the 2008 Mariners. I am convinced, however, the GM did not recruit enough leadership in the clubhouse or the right leadership in the dugout, and for that he should be held accountable.

"The Yankees, Red Sox, & Angels have been pretty successful building teams around free agents. Seriously, get a clue."

- kerplunk

I do believe that the successful Yankees, Red Sox and Angels teams were built around organizational talent that formed the core of those teams and the core was augmented by free agents. The M's are built around free agents that are augmented by very young organizational talent. Again, I don't believe that this formula has worked anywhere.

In terms of accountability, it weighs heavily on McLaren. Sure, I wouldn't trust Bavasi with my grocery list, but every GM has made less than favorable trades. They use the evaluation tools they have at that time - it is then up to the organization to develop the talent to reach (exceed..?) the potential that was originally projected when the transaction happened. The GM can only maximize the value received in terms of cost/benefit at the current time of trade/signing.

It's the manager's job to take the personnel who reports to him and 1) create a cohesive unit that is focused on the same goal with an accompanying strategy, and 2) motivate them to win. The Mariners want to win - but they don't NEED to win. You can see it with other teams; they have an incessant tenacity during every game to be on the upper hand when the game ends. This is not the case with the M's. There is a lack of approach, and a lack of focus, and a lack of overall joy in what they are doing.

McLaren should be the first to go out of anyone. Bavasi would be next in line. Players thereafter, and coaches on the back end.

Vidro's bunt was a good move - what wasn't, was a weak ground-out by Raul, and an easy out by Beltre. Coupled with no production from Sexson for a month (that one HR was against a mop-up bullpenner). What hurt was only one hit with RISP, and that didn't get a run home (Johjima just went to third. - I didn't watch the 9th. . . ) Then we get runners on 1st and 3rd with one out, and Ichiro pops up.
Felix didn't run out of gas in the 8th, he was drained in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. You pitch a near no-hitter, and your team can't do anything. . . .You could see it in Felix' body language "What's the use?"
Yes, field managers do make a difference - put Reed in LF, Raul at 1st, and Sexson in AA.
One more thing, last week, when Lopez non-chalanted a game saving ground-ball out, I'D HAVE PULLED HIM IN MID-INNING! (if he's going to take a nap, he can do it the clubhouse.) Talk about a gutless manager!

Griffey may be on his way to seattle as the Red's outfield got more crowded with the promotion of jay bruce

Thank you Geoff!

Interestingly, Art Thiel said much the same to me a few years ago when I was interviewing him for my BA thesis. He basically said that Armstrong and Lincoln aren't baseball guys -- and that you can't run a baseball team like a business. This was prior to the 2004 season, when it really started going downhill.

I agree with most of what folks have said here. The problems with the M's organization start at the top. It's time for the FO to go and be replaced by people with more baseball knowhow.

Geoff, should journalists viewing a franchise from the outside be expected to have as accurate of an assessment of a team's potential as the team's management? Seriously. I don't know. I assume that the people who manage the players and the organization should be capable of accurately gauging the mettle and capabilities of their team; whereas reporters and fans, looking from a distance, can only infer what the team should be capable of. I offer for evidence the annual polls that are haplessly distorted from week to week as reality imposes its presense to defend my contention that fans, reporters, and other outsiders are limited to educated guesses. However, I presume, from my experience in putting together a state championship youth soccer team, that the intimacy that coaches and managers develop makes them better judges of a team's strengths and weaknesses, their potential and threats to their success. When the future of thise team is bartered away because management claimedt this team was a championship contender and they turn out to be the worst team in MLB, it seems to be a blunder of gross incompetence.
This is a different question than who should take responsibility, and I am very interested in your take. How can the manager and coach be so wrong? Or should they be considered as no better gauge of their teams ability than that of the pundits? When things do go south, should they not then be held accountable for the adjustments they make? Votes of confidence when the ship continues to sink and no corrections are forthcoming seems incredibly Alice-In-Wonderlandesque.
I still despise the tiny type in the comment box. Submission attempt #2.

BOYCOTT the MARINERS !!!!!

the only way they will listen is if the seats are empty and no cash is being made

This focus by so many on accountability is a bit too retaliatory and not enough anticipatory. Much bigger decisions need to be made soon, rather than figuring out whom to blame.

The status of Morrow and Clement need to be addressed yesterday. Do we merely have a highly drafted middle reliever and DH, or are these two going to be key pieces at premium positions on future M's teams.

Our only real trading pieces on the 25 man roster need to be assessed for their value on the trade market. Ichiro, Beltre, Putz, Ibanez, and Bedard should either be made part of the future plans or else traded to the highest bidder.

Who makes these decisions is the question this accountability talk is ultimately directed toward. But rather than blame right now, decisive action is needed for the M's future. If the present decisionmakers listen in on this accountability talk, wouldn't they be more likely to look for ways to cover their own butts rather than admitting mistakes and looking for immediate solutions for the future?

It is time to start voting with our Benjamins, and not supporting the Mariner organization.
It is a pity it has come to that. Might be the same formula that doomed the Sonics, I don;t know.
But this team is a bigger embarrassment that the teams of 20 years ago. At least they tried, and cared. Many of these folks don't seem to care.
As for me, thank God for mlb extra innings. There is still good baseball out there, as long as the Ms are going to suffer, that can do so without me.
Its very sad. I will miss them, or miss the memory of them.

OK let's get this straight - Howard Lincoln isn't going anywhere - he's part of the ownership/governance of the Ms. As I've said before, he's a businessman, not a baseball guy. He, on behalf of the ownership group, hired Armstrong, so if anyone "at the top" is going anywhere, Chuck is at the top of the feeding chain.

"Hit the owners in their pocketbooks" - hah! - like they really care if you or anyone else goes to the game and buys any tickets, hot dogs or souvenirs! People don't buy pro sports teams to make money while they own them - they use their ownership of teams for tax purposes to offset other income - so actually, by boycotting the team you might actually be helping the owners even more! Owners make money upon SELLING the team - they are long term investments that provide intermediate benefits. And yes, even a "loser" team (e.g., the Sonics) will reward the owner(s) handsomely in any sale.

So Chuck is at the head of this snake, and he and Bavasi and McLaren are covering each other's rears. So you can see where this is going, right?

So Bavais needs to deal with Mac and/or Chuck needs to deal with Bavasi and/or Lincoln has to deal with Chuck. The question is: who's going to replace Chuck? A "fire sale" of management from field to the office would be a challenge for any team, but the Ms have tobreak up this "mutual appreciation" society of Mac, Bavasi, and Chuck. Then maybe things will change. Yes, the players are not playing to expectations, but the people charged with figuring out what to do and how to do it are spending their time covering their rears, and blaming it all on the players who are left out in the cold - My! Oh! My!....

As far as the Mariners and accountibility is concerned -- no on in the organization is accoutbale as long as 1). They're company people, 2). People are spending money on the Mariners and Seattle Mariners stuff at SAFECO Field and all of the department stores, and 3). as long as the Mariners are making money on a daily basis no one in this whole organization will be held accountable--no one. NO ONE!!!! That's what really sucks. Mike Hargrove would still be the Manager of this team if Ichiro wouldn't have said last year, in the final year of his contract, it's either him or me. You can't have us both.

It's tough luck for those of us fans who love the Mariners who not only want to see them win, but see them make the right moves to help them win, we're out of luck. All the folks in the Mariners ownership group are Corporotists, and are concerned first and foremost about making a profit. Until there is a change in front office attitude, or the baseball gods look down favorably on this team (like 2000 and 2001) we're screwed!!!

In contrast to the viewpoint expressed by SnohoCo, Mr. Yamauchi is very aware of the drop in monetary proceeds and he probably pays much more attention to that area than the team's won-loss record. Only other area he probably really pays close attention to is the performance of Ichiro and Johjima. I'm sure Armstrong and LIncoln are aware of this and Armstrong in the media has tried to attribute the huge attendance drop this year mainly to bad April weather rather than the poor product on the field. Fans staying away in droves from Safeco Field is the only way to really get Yamauchi to recognize the need to make FO changes - a Barbara Hedges "retirement" of Lincoln, Armstrong, then Bavasi would be a wonderful gift that Mr. Yamauchi could give baseball fans of the Great Northwest.

I was at last night's game and it was like being at a road game with all the Red Sox fans. Felix's effort was outstanding. He was one pitch of getting out of the eigth unscathed.

Our hitting was atrocious. Not a clutch hit to be found when it counted. With the game still scoreless we had runners at first and third with only one out and Ichiro up. His short flyout to center wasn't enough for a sac fly. The next inning Big Pappy launched his homer and lo presto, we were down.

I looked at the players on the field and as individuals they seem they should be better than they hit as a team. But noone scares any opposing pitcher, and noone comes through when it counts.

It's sad. It's easy to say blow things up and go with the young guys, but it's hard when you just traded a big hunk of youth for Eric Bedard, who won't want to hang around for a 3-5 year rebuidling plan.

I'd love to say I've got some answers, but I don't. I hang in there because I'm a baseball fan, and also an M's fan. I'll be here through the bad times, and hope for some signs of intelligent life in the M"s front office.

Well said, Geoff. That’s why you earn the big bucks.

Since everyone’s job is safe and they’re all staying on, we have a 110-loss season to “look forward” to. What a great prospect that is.

"I do believe that the successful Yankees, Red Sox and Angels teams were built around organizational talent that formed the core of those teams and the core was augmented by free agents. "

Somewhat true for the championship Yankees teams, not true for the Red Sox or the Angels, you're simply wrong there.

"The M's are built around free agents that are augmented by very young organizational talent. Again, I don't believe that this formula has worked anywhere."

The 1997 Florida Marlins and 2002 Arizona Diamondbacks say hello.

The problem isn't the proportion of homegrown talent vs. free agents, its that the Mariners are clueless at how to evaluate talent and also clueless at what the market rate is. So not only are they filling a team with players whose skill sets aren't a good fit for the home park but they're also vastly overpaying for positions where it's easy to find replacement level talent.

Put simply, their front office and upper management is hopelessly behind the times, and they will continue to get beat silly by smarter teams as long as they ascribe to 1950s-era methods of evaluating baseball talent.

For Hawk, who said, "Ichiro is underperforming but is anybody arguing he should be benched or traded?"

No, and anyone who does should be stripped of their Ichiro souvenir bobblehead.

Anyone who complains about Ichiro apparently doesn't realize the poor guy has been patrolling half of right field and two-thirds of left field, in addition to his center-field responsibility. He's exhausted, and it's only 2 months into the season!

Stop complaining about Ichiro! He's not the problem!!

I think the players should be held accountable first. They're collectively underperforming. This is a capable group of players, which is why I don't think Bavasi should be canned. McClaren seems like the fall guy, in this situation. He's made a lot of moves that I don't agree with. I think he puts way too much trust into guys like Miquel Cairo and Sean Green, only to watch the latter constantly get battered. He tends to put JJ in bad situations, like on Sunday in NY, bringing him far too early.

It's a tough call, but it seems like something of that nature needs to be done. Since the payroll is so high, it seems like re-tooling might be a better route than rebuilding. Most good teams have an even mix of veterans and young guys. There's no reason the M's can't follow that pattern to success.

The symbol of complacency that concerns me is the way this organization has tried to patch together a team every year since they won 116, rather than trying to plan for the future and build for continued success. First we had GIllick devastate our minor leagues, then we get Bavasi who thinks the height of talent is to hit 280 with no power and no walks.

McLaren and Bavasi should both be fired. They should hold off on Bavasi until after the June draft though, he does a good job with that. It doesn't make too much difference when they fire McLaren, but it should get done sometime before we expect to win again.

Patrick F.

How many more dumb moves does Bavasi have to make before you think he's the wrong guy for the job?

Here's a nice PI story on our last 'idiot manager' to be run out of town by the all knowing fans.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/364685_melvin27.html

"Here's a nice PI story on our last 'idiot manager' to be run out of town by the all knowing fans."

Another poster missing the boat.

When Melvin had Bavasi picking his players his team was abysmal. Give him a GM who can build a team and has a passel of young talent to boot and suddenly Melvin's a genius.

What a drag it must be for Geoff to read this stuff every day.

If "Mac" is fired I for one would like to see someone like Frank Robinson Brought in.An Old School Mgr. who does not put up with lazy and mediocre play.He has alway`s brought out the best and ignited passion in his clubs even though they were low payroll(National`s)and "Expected" to lose.So give a guy like that a chance with a club with a higher payroll and expectaion`s and the result could be Positive.Anyone agree?

Geoff, I don't know Rose color glasses Chuck Armstrong is looking at team through, but Stevie Wonder could see this team sucks!!! He(Chuck) tells reporters that Bavasi has done a great job building up the Minor League system, then why in the heck did Mac go on the radio and state the reason that Norton was traded, and Cairo wasn't sent down is beacause we have no IF prospects in the Minors, so Mac and Chuck need to be on the same page.
Anybody remember in 05' when the Sox offered us Hanley Ramirez for Eddie Guardado at the Deadling but Bavasi turned it down because Bavsi felt that Yuni was a better prospect than Ramirez, hey Bill how'd that one turn out??

Geoff....Morrow's obviously not a dumb guy he went to Cal, so he has to hear the grumblings about the team picking him in front of Lincecum, but I feel sorry for the guy because Lincecum is looking Cy young esque..and Morrow isn't even getting a chance to show us what he has as a starter!

How much more of this garbage are we going to be subjected to? It's time for Seattle's softball press to lower the boom on this team. This is utterly ridiculous. The management is more concerned by creating a family friendly experience than producing a winner on the field.

Well guess what, baseball fans are and will beginning to not care about this team and we need to show it by not attending.

1st move is to put Richie on a diet ... its the only way his BA will ever exceedd his weight.

2nd move is get rid of Bavasi. His collection of has beens and never were's will never win.

3rd move Fire Armstrong. He doesn't have a clue about today's baseball. (See earlier comment about Bavasi)

4th Move Put Someone (Charlton) in a position to kick some Bu**. In the past 3 years never have I witnessed a team with a more "don't give a damn attitude."

Come on owners excersize some leadership here. Your management certainly doesn't have any nor do your players.

Oh and to all of you who keep telling me that they are trying hard and I should get off their backs ... stick it. This team looks like the early mariners mailing it in after 50 games. i didn't go then and I and many of my friends won't now

"Anybody remember in 05' when the Sox offered us Hanley Ramirez for Eddie Guardado at the Deadling but Bavasi turned it down because Bavsi felt that Yuni was a better prospect than Ramirez, hey Bill how'd that one turn out??"

I would love to see a source on this. I can't believe this is true.

How is mentioning that many of you (not you in particular) wanted Melvin gone for the same reasons they want Mac gone. Specifically for 'being an idiot' missing the boat?

He keeps a pitcher in, he takes a pitcher out, he shuffles the lineup he was given every which way he can, he runs he doesn't run. it all fails and he is an idiot for it.

I agree bavasi is the idiot.

Why did last year's team overachieve while this year's team is under an underachiever?

Because last year we had a legitimate team leader and this year we don't.

His name? Jose Guillen.

Fire Lincon? Fire Armstrong? If that did not take place after Lou got fed up with them and left town then it never will.So forget those post`s people.Because it`s like screaming at a wall that won`t listen.I can`t believe Bavasi was hired considering his track record and now it look`s like he will finally be out of here.That`s a positive right?
After the draft and all star break this team will have made some decisons,probally bad ones too.

Mac Is not the problem.I think he is agood,agressive Mgr.But he can only do so much.For whatever reason this team is not responding to him.And a change might have to be made.I Steves comment about jose guillen.I have had the same thought.We need some player`s that have some passion and take loseing personally.Carlos Silva has that.Rauel Ibanez and Ichiro.But i`m not sure about any of the rest.

Hey Mike....All you need to do is Google Hanley Ramirez for Eddie Guardado and you'll see all the info you need to se or don't want to see....

Jose Guillen's fiery leadership is not the reason Vidro and Sexson can't hit anymore. He's not the reason this team can't play defense. His departure did not cause Johjima to lose his batting stroke or cause JJ to be injured. We all look for reasons when the inexplicable happens but this team simply has had every critical issue that they were counting on going right, go wrong.

From the Seattle P-I on the story of last night's game: Sean Casey singled leading off, but a fielder's choice and a ground ball gave Hernandez two outs with a runner on second. Dustin Pedroia laced a ground-rule double over the left-field wall for one run, and after an intentional walk to David Ortiz -- his solo homer in the fourth scored Boston's only run prior to the eighth -- the Red Sox strung together three singles and a walk as Hernandez's gem fell apart.

Question: who allowed Hernandez's gem to fall apart? Was it Bavasi? No, it was MacLaren. He's the guy, you know, the one we call the manager, who's in charge of taking Hernandez out to put in a relief pitcher before allowing the Red Sox order to bat around!

I have been thinking about relocating to Seattle. But, I have a problem. I've always wanted to live in a city that has a major league baseball team. Does anyone know when Seattle will get one?

At least with jose giullen we,the fans,had somebody who would stand up and take accountability on the team that gave our frustrations a voice.We or I should say the team need someone like that.Period.I agree with steve.It`s obviously not the whole problem but a big part of it.

Not that I'm a Bavasi defender by any means but how could you give Guillen a 3yr deal like he wanted when his name just came out in the Mitchell report and he was looking at a suspension, and if this guy is such a great leader why in 04' did the players on the Angels vote to leave him off the playoff roster, then they went on to win it all, and in Washington he almost got into a fight with Frank Robinson..of course everyone can change, but that's like saying TO's a good leader now because he hasn't caused problems in big D

"I'd say (Bavasi's) job is safe until the end of the season, because firing your general manager mid-season serves no purpose."

He MUST be fired mid-season to prevent the seemingly inevitable Griffey trade. Allowing him to make that deal would be the Mt Everest of idiocy.

Firing Mac will do nothing. All the people calling for Mac to be fired need to get a clue. I am not saying he has shown me anything at all as a manager, but his team is fatally flawed. There is nothing he can do. Look at Bob Melvin. A manager needs talent to work with. Bill Bavasi is the Wally Walker of MLB.

Firing Bavasi NOW will send the message that needs to be sent. No more cr*p trades will be made, and EVERY one of the players he brought on board will feel the heat. This is the one thing that can possible motivate these players, assuming motivation, and not downright suckiness, is the problem.