So much of this stems from having a manager that has no control of team. Do you really think Lou would have let this happen.? Lou would have made Washburn cry.

Of course Lou would not have put up with idiots running the club (hence the reason he left).

Well said. 'nuff said.

What they should do is send a message and trade Washburn's sorry butt.

He's worked with Johjima for more than a year - communication problems shouldn't be much of an issue.

Washburn stinks, and he knows it. He is throwing Kenji under the bus, plain and simple. Get him the heck out of the clubhouse. We don't need that kind of guy on the team.

I doubt Washburn reads this or any other blog, so Geoff, if you could tell him that at least some of us think he's a cowardly little snake, I'd appreciate it.

Reposted from last thread: I haven't been able to catch any games since last week, but maybe the bats are warming up, which is good news, but I've become convinced this team isn't going anywhere with the way its managed, from the top down.


I'm torn about the idea of sending Morrow down to stretch his arm out. If this team were one that thinks about building toward the future, it would be the smart thing to do, given that 2 of the current starters are in the twilight of their careers.


I'm concerned that JJ isn't back to his 07 form and won't be for a while, and there isn't another arm in the bullpen that has the ability to come in and save a game like Morrow does. I think Morrow has greatly improved since last season and should continue to develop. However, since the offense has been so lousy there are likely to be a lot of close games which the team will lose, and to minimize that risk, they need Morrow in the pen.


I'm also very concerned this team will do something stupid and trade a valuable young player or otherwise overpay for Griffey, because of 1) a belief that his presence makes them a better team, and 2) they need people in the stands to justify the high payroll and certain persons' jobs. Reason #1 is a pipe dream, and both reasons are bad reasons for making such a deal.

We wouldn't be talking about a loss if Lopez does his job fielding well. Anyone whose error costs the team a game should be benched for the next game. I know he had a decent game swinging the bat but his error is why we lost the game. I am tired of him a Yuni becoming sub-par fielders. Add this to the chemistry issue and the team cannot even vent its feelings when someone makes an error like this.

Isn't multiculturalism great? Let's put a team on the field instead of a model U.N.

I love how some people that probably don't even watch the games think re-signing Johjima is a must. This is the way to build a winner.

This team is so poorly ran it's sickening. Piniella left because of it.

Geoff---This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if chemistry follows winning and losing rather than leading to it. Last year's squad wa almost the same as this year's and we heard last year one of the reasons for the Ms success was veteran leadership.

Gee, I thought that all the "intangibles" this team assembled were meant to minimize situations like this, as well as to avoid long losing stretches like the one from last summer and the one the team is currently suffering through. Good thing we have so many players who have been through the wars to keep the team focused, both on and off the field.

This is yet another failed assumption in the philosophy of the M's organization.

Geoff - Are you allowed to drink alcohol during the games. If not your job sucks.

Now that Kenji is starting to hit a bit (maybe afraid of losing his slot?), how about putting him at DH, and letting Clement catch? Or, better yet, how about moving him to 1st base? Can you image the effect on IF throws when he moves his glove in a 2 foot circle while they are taking aim? (trying to deceive the runner, I guess).
Anyway, I don’t know about Japan, but in the US, the batters do not sneak a peek at the catcher’s set-up location. Why? It’s not because it’s a universal courtesy, it’s because if the batter did that, he knows he’ll get a quick pitch in the back of his head! Sneak peeks went out 80 years ago due to whacks up side of the head.
I guess the M’s are getting Roger Hansen in to try to do something – “scheduled visit” - LOL. It’s 3 months late, maybe two years. . . .
Oh, yes, it was Washburn’s fault that the M’s walked 13 last night.
Now, I am not a fan of Wash, last year I labeled him Washedupbum, but he’s not the only source of complaints about Kenji.

AKMarinersFan

Lou would not have played Joh.

he's a terrible catcher and the problems with the pitching staff have been there since he got here.

Nobody seems to ever mention Kenji's amazing throwout rate last year. Dude is a legitimate catcher.

Speaking of 2baggers...

On the night that Lopez shows us his circus act in the field (not the first time), the AAA guy that was behind PULLS OFF AN UNASSISTED TRIPLE PLAY.

What did we get for A.Cabrerra again??? Oh yeah... Eduardo Perez. Nice move Billy Bob.

What a disaster. I think I'm going to watch American Idol instead tonight.... ehh.

Adam's suggestion that the M's trade Washburn is excellent and it would be the right move for management to make at this time. Perhaps the Reds would take him and the loathsome Sexson in some deal for Griffey, it would be an good addition and subtraction, still, I understand that Sexson has very little trade value. With Griffey's contract, however, Sexson as part of the deal might balance it ala NBA style. We would be free of the washbum and rally killer with the return of a "hometown" hero in his twilight years.

When are you people going to realize Lou is not coming back? Who cares what he would do? He is not here and he is not coming back! All of you post this: "Lou would do this...", "Lou would not tolerate this..." sound like jilted lovers. Get over it! It must be a Seattle thing because I hear and see the same thing on Husky football boards regarding Don James.

Its over people, time to move on....

Re Don James and Lou.....in case you hadn't noticed we haven't had a lot of winners in these parts. Those two made wins happen. We miss that.

As far as Johjima's catching goes, I found this interesting

http://www.bleedingblueandteal.com/04-2008/bench-johjima/

There must be something to the numbers.

I'm not sure why some people are giving McLaren a free pass. It's true that Bavasi is the one responsible for bringing in the personnel, but wouldn't the GM ask the manager why type of player he wants (Wilkerson, Cairo, etc.)? I'm sure McLaren had some sort of input.

At this point, I just wish they would start over with a new GM. Why waste another season when you can start building towards 2009. I know they're not mathematically out of the division or wild card race, but let's not hope for another '95 miracle.

If the club could see pass whatever problem there is with Bobby Valentine, I think he'd be a great fit. He's managing over in Japan so he would have a good relationship with the Japanese players on the team.

From the start McLaren has been too much of a friend and not enough of a boss. The big mistake which threatens to torpedo this season was the decision to bring McLaren back for another year.

Well another blown game because of poor pitching I thought this guy was suppose to be good and the rest too. I can't believe what Bavasi has bought us terrible pitching. Didn't this paper say that Bedard wasn't that great for the pitcher's that we were giving up? Bavasi should have listened to this paper if thats true!!!

@Firstman: Why would Cinci ever take a deal like that? Look at the roster before you submit trade proposals. THey have Votto at first with hatteberg backing up. And they have a good young starting staff with Homer Bailey up sooner than later.

I think Larry Stone is right in his article about Griffey - it's a dumb idea. I liked the idea of Griffey playing a bit ago - but now they've brought up Clement and Balentin and i think they need to play through with that move, which means playing Clement at DH and Balentin at RF most days.

Since we're probalby not going to get rid of Sexson, we thus cannot move Ibanez to 1st to clear room for Griffey. Pretty much there is no where for Griffey to play unless we do something that seem rather dumb (like taking the new kids out of hte lineup in favor of a 38 year old sentimental favorite who is not hitting that great this year).

I like Griffey a lot and he is a veteran leader, but i think the mariners have already created a situation where he just wouldn't be able to slot in easily... i know that's a little off topic, but it is what it is.

@Michael: Bringing in Valentine just for 2 players doesn't seem like the greatest idea.

Since Ben brought it up...

I think Griffey is going to happen. Larry Stone's great article summed up my feelings. My heart wants to believe in that magic but my head says "not so fast." But the Ms are playing .375 ball in front of a lot of empty seats so I think the question is not if but how.

Bavasi has a history of dramatically overpaying when he feels he has to make a trade. I am seriously worried the "get Griffey" order will go out and we will give up a top prospect and agree to pick up next year's option $16.5M. If we could avoid doing both or maybe only pick up half of his option I'll feel a little better. But that prospect name better not be Triunfel or Aumont or any other top tier prospect. And I'd trade Kenji in this instance because it helps solve the question of where everyone plays.

Griffey is a shell of his former self in the field but I suspect Griffey in right is not nearly as brutal (in part because of Safeco) as Raul in left and I like Wlad in left. So that let's you rotate Sexson, Raul and Clement (when he's not catching) between first and DH.

In this case Griffey doesn't have to be a savior but if he pops a few out to right and we don't overpay this might be okay.

Joh doesn't have that natural smooth athletic ability. He is not pleasing to the eye when catching. Clement has that ability.

A catcher needs to have a presence, framing pitches, communicating with pitchers, and working with umpires.

He just always looks a little uncomfortable, and I don't think I have ever seen a catcher drop so many pitches in the strike zone (and I'm not talking about getting crossed up).

Here's my 2 cents in.

Any criticism on Johjima's framing of pitches or setting up a target prior to the pitch is completely invalid. Since last season, Johjima has set-up a target prior to the pitcher at the direction of the coaching staff. I have watched Johjima for years and he frames pitches just about the same as any one in the league does. If you cheat too much as the catcher, and pull the glove in too much into the strike zone on obvious balls, the umpire is going to like it.

So when Washburn blames Johjima for Washburn's terrible game, it's not a legitimate complaint. Washburn is essentially throwing his teammate under the bus.

Honestly on Felix's last start, the umpire just had a poor performance. Apparently, that ump wasn't even the regular guy that sits behind the plate from what the broadcast booth stated.

So if anybody wants to speculate Bedard is blaming Johjima, it would not be a legitimate complaint. Just because Johjima is a Japanese catcher doesn't mean he can't do the job. In my opinion, he has demonstrated leadership on the field. He knows when to visit to the mound instinctively, he throws out runners thanks to a quick-release. I don't buy the suggestion pitchers are changing their mechanics to compensate for Johjima's lack of throwing ability. Anyone that has coached baseball at any level can easily see that isn't the case. Kenji throws at the 3/4 arm angle opposed to traditional over-the-top. Who cares, he still gets the job done.

Any suggestion that clubhouse diversity or national origin of players poses a problem for the Mariners terrible season is way off.

Even to lightly suggest it is a problem borders on racist ill-conceived misconceptions. This team won 88 games last year and the diversity of the clubhouse divided by language and culture did not hurt the club.

"Johjima's framing of pitches has also been an issue on a team where walks have been dispensed like candy the past few years."

That's ridiculous garbage originating from bad pitchers trying to throw someone under the bus to cover their own suckitude.

How about we try something with the pitchers: THROW F#@%ING STRIKES.

If you cheat too much as the catcher, and pull the glove in too much into the strike zone on obvious balls, the umpire isn't going to like it.

Great, another loser M's season. Currently, the M's, at 15-25 and not only the worst team in AL, but with a .375 winning percentage are next to last in all of baseball! This week we play the Padres, currently last in baseball. Just in time--when we lose to the Padres, we'll likely take over the cellar.

On this date the past several seasons:

2008: 15-25 (.375), 4th place, 8.5 back
2007: 17-16 (.515), 3rd place, 1.5 back
2006: 16-22 (.421), 4th place, 4 back
2005: 14-21 (.400), 4th place, 5.5 back
2004: 12-22 (.343), 4th place, 10.5 back

----------Bavasi takes over in 2004---------------

2003: 24-14 (.632), 1st place
2002: 26-11(.553), 1st place

trade Joh while his bat is hot

trade FLUFFY!!!!!!!

we ought to be able to get a decent return for a Johjima/ FLUFFY package

This is the article I've been expecting to see for a month, and it confirms an awful lot about this "team" for me.

Only 2 things to add:

1. No wonder the Ms seem to seek out good clubhouse guys, even if their #s suck - the need for some kind of glue in the clubhouse is bigger than anything they need on offense or defense.

2. I'm pretty disappointed in Ichiro, Raul and Beltre. This exact situation needs to be fixed by the veterans, if the coaching staff is unable or unwilling to fix it. Lead-by-example doesn't seem to be working. I've said it numerous times, and it bears repeating here: this team needs the fired-up, trash-talking, energetic Ichiro we saw during the World Baseball Classic, not the aloof, selfish player we have now.

Oh, and #3 -

DFA Washburn. Free RA Dickey.

I like the idea of Sexson and Wasburn for Griffey. And if Griffey wants to play in the field, wouldn't first base be a good option with his old "wheels"?

I think Ichiro's a robot. Came from the same factory that made John Olerud.

Look at the White Sox: personality, veteran leadership, and they're actually having fun. Imagine that.

Any trade involving Griffey will be the Reds CUTTING costs. They certainly won't be taking on salaries similar to Griffey. Sexson is almost untradeable. As is Vidro.

Repost from prior thread:

Okay, so what's the deal with Joh's catching and pairing with pitchers? Anything to this stuff? I understand Moyer didn't want Joh to catch for him and now we hear about Washburn having problems with Joh's catching(?)....wasn't last night the first time Joh's caught for Bedard? I'd heard that McLaren was going to keep Burke with Bedard. Curious.

Our first clue to problems with pitchers in sync with catching was with Moyer. Moyer wouldn't let Joh catch him. I really believe that's one reason Moyer moved onto another team. The M's shouldn't have resigned Joh so soon. I do think there is a problem here.

Just a couple of things:

Adam,

I completely agree with you about Washburn. His 20-34 record here speakes for itself. He hasn't been very good. He's throwing Joh under the bus to save himself. His ERA is up near 6. He gives up too many hits.

McLaren has absolutely no control of his team. He isn't a very good in game manager. Idon't know if last yeat was a fluke or not. Apparently so.

The most glaring thing, however, is this team's lack of a leader. I've said before that losing Jose Guillen hurt this team more than people realize. I understand that he's not having a great year in KC, and that he can be a clubhouse cancer, but he lit a fire under some of these guys last year. There's no one here this year that has done that. I think J.J. or Raul may be capable, but I haven't seen it. Maybe the manager should do that. Oh wait.... yeah, about that. This is a quickly sinking ship.

Where's Lou now? Cubbies? And they have the best record in the National League with AZ? I think management of this club has a lot to do with everything - but it's the combination of terrible play and poor management that makes this tram such a debacle.

Thanks for all of your insight Geoff, but I get sick and tired of hearing about millionaires and there cliques, divided lockerrooms, poor styles, inabilities to get on same pages, etc, etc. F that crap.

This is the same game of baseball that has been played for years and you either make the damn plays or you don't. Don't give me this wind crap, are you kidding me? 13 walks to 1? Sounds like wind blowing up our butts is what it sounds like.

It's like everything else with this club - you make adjustments. You think the wind is tossing your pitches, throw the damn ball elsewhere. You aren't hitting, you make adjustments, crowd the plate, take more pitches, hits and runs, etc. - you don't go up there taking the same stupid early, horrible hacks.

This team is a JOKE of a team from the top down. To take statistics and individual issues like the catcher not syncing with the pitchers, lockerroom division, etc. and say that has made them 10 games under .500 and unable to hold a lead is ridiculous. It's baseball - same as it ever was.

Geoff - you get paid to dig deep dude - thanks. But it's hogwash and everyone knows it. Washburn's problem is he tosses like a sissy and has no Moyer mojo. He's a hittable dude that needs spots that he can't hit. Giving him $36M for 4 years was a mistake, not what catcher he gets to throw to.

This team makes me barf. I used to DVR games I couldn't watch, now I don't even turn on the ones I can watch. Not because I'm not interested - just because I don't want to watch crap like what happened last night. And that crap will happen again.

I do believe that Joh caught Bedard on opening day to answer someone else's question.

One more thing:

Didn't Washburn have issues with Jose Guillen when they played for the Angels together?? Maybe Joh isn't the problem.

I think that the press and we fans make way too much out of clubhouse chemistry. It is human nature of course. When the bloopers fall in we want to credit work-ethic and togetherness and when those very same swings yield outs and the losses pile up we have trouble explaining it except for the ready made answer that we aren't trying hard enough or need a fire lit.

I'm not saying that leadership doesn't matter at all or that team chemistry doesn't exist. But I don't think it matters much when Jose Lopez is in the batters box. Then it is only Jose and the pitcher. Now, if there is a vet or a coach who can encourage Jose (or any other player) to spend more time in the workout room or film room than say, the bars, yeah, that will give Jose (or any other player) a little help. But overall, I think chemistry is used to explain what we can't, that crazy randomness that makes baseball so fun.

You know, kind of like what Mr X thinks of fielding metrics. :-)

11:35 AM, May 13, 2008

Great, another loser M's season. Currently, the M's, at 15-25 and not only the worst team in AL, but with a .375 winning percentage are next to last in all of baseball! This week we play the Padres, currently last in baseball. Just in time--when we lose to the Padres, we'll likely take over the cellar.

On this date the past several seasons:

2008: 15-25 (.375), 4th place, 8.5 back
2007: 17-16 (.515), 3rd place, 1.5 back
2006: 16-22 (.421), 4th place, 4 back
2005: 14-21 (.400), 4th place, 5.5 back
2004: 12-22 (.343), 4th place, 10.5 back

----------Bavasi takes over in 2004---------------

2003: 24-14 (.632), 1st place
2002: 26-11(.553), 1st place

How does this sad-sack of crap still have a job?

Geoff:

You are underestimating the A's if you think they are just going to fade away. The Mariners may catch them, but only if the Mariners play out of their minds vs. a collapse by the A's. The A's pitching (starting & relief) is solid and young. Their offense has been unexpectedly good in the early season. This is a rebuilding year and the plan was to TRY and compete in the 1st half and then bring up some of the top prospects mid year. In AAA they have 2 guys major league ready - Carlos Gonzalez CF, and Gregorio Petit SS - both good offensive players. Also you can expect Travis Buck and Eric Chavez to be back in June when they should be healthy. All 4 players should be better offensively than the current players at those positions. Expect the A's to pester the Angels all year.

I do not understand why it is still even a debate or how anyone can justify more time for Bavasi to work something out?

First thing you have to do is stop the bleeding.

A's and Twins will make the post-season - now how does that make this $109M look? Like some clueless jackass built this club. Wait - that's exactly what did happen.

If Samurai's post doesn't tell the WHOLE story - nothing does. In fact, you can discontinue this blog right now because that post paints the clearest picture of all.

Hey Geoff,
Should you be driving and holding the camera at the same time? Safety first, my man!

CCplease: It's not just about bringing in Valentine for Ichiro and Johjima. The guy is fiery and also a proven winner as a manager. Let's not also forget that as long as the Mariners have Japanese ownership, the team will always be signing big name Japanese FAs.

As far as Griffey, wait until next season and sign him as a FA. I'm more concerned about who Bavasi would give up in a trade.

I don't know Geoff. Seems to me like you are describing a symptom, not the problem. Chemistry isn't what makes a team win. I'd argue that chemistry is a by-product of winning. Even guys who hate eachother get along in most winning clubhouses. It's like anything else - bad times cause fingers to point. That's all your seeing. You don't need to look for a reason that this clubhouse unrest is present beyond the win/loss totals and (somewhat predictable) poor performances from some players. I bet you'd see a similar clique situation present with most teams. Those that are winning ignore or get by with it, those that are losing blame it. How do you explain Johjima's catching NOT being a huge problem during the high points of last year? The team's just not that good this year. Johjima is hardly the reason for that. You are witnessing some bad players (Washburn) look for reasons other than his waning skills to blame. Bedard had a bad night. It's really not as big a deal as it is being made out to be. Why doesn't Johjima get the praise for ngihts the pitcher does an incredible job? Some Felix starts come to mind, and at least one Bedard start. Bad teams blame good teams play and win.

"OK, make it 89 wins. Do you think we'll go 74-48 the rest of the way?"

My post in the last thread was based on the idea that a "dogfight" between three or four teams in the ALWest offered the best chance for the M's to get back in this race. Adam based his assumptions on the winner of the ALWest recording 94 wins. This was a clear example of the absolutist stathead thinking that garners Adam so much love on this blog.

The statistics I showed from 1995 thru 2007 indicated that in a "dogfight", 89 wins for the victor would be more likely than 94 (and that five fewer games required for the M's to win the Division was significant).

I also said in an earlier post that I thought the M's needed to go on an immediate win streak against Texas and the Padres for them to have a chance in '08. Last night Bedard, the bullpen and Jose Lopez combined to show that this team doesn't know how to win the kind of games they must win against the marginally competitive opponents in the league.

GEOFF, I don't buy that an internationally composed team can't have strong chemistry. Last season, this very same team had all the appearances of a strong camaraderie. JJ Putz together with Jose Guillen held those very natural, mostly ethnic, cliques together. Winning bridges gaps, losing leads to divisiveness. Simple.

In 2008, too many players on this team continue to prove that it is not constituted to find-a-way-to-win. Too much CHOKING. After last night, I wouldn't bet on the M's going 61-61 the rest of the way.

I feel sorry for GEOFF and all those videos of empty stadiums he will post for a blog that will be losing more and more readers through no fault of his own.

Looooong season ahead. I predict now that McLaren will be gone by the All Star Break.

Any player who blames another player for his poor performance doesn't belong in the major leagues. Trade Washburn, the Mariners don't need a victim on their team.

Geoff, great description of the clubhouse, and is exactly what I'd heard through the grapevine about how fragmented the team is this year. Last year they were less fragmented, and everyone seems to credit Guillen for this. What did he do last year that brought the same group of guys together?

Second, lay off Washburn people. He is not the problem. Bedard is also having issues with Johjima. In fact, all of the pitchers are having issues with Johjima, they're just not as visible. I'm real disappointed since I thought Stottlemyre was going to get his catchers and pitchers to develop a gameplan and stick to it. Something must be getting lost in translation or Johjima isn't sticking to the gameplan. Roger Hansen is well known for being harsh with his catchers and bringing him in is the equivalent of Johjima being sent to the principals office.

I think Johjima signing the extension actually caused more problems than it was worth. It sounds like the pitchers aren't looking forward to working with Joh for 3 more years.

Johjima (and a low-level prospect) for Griffey works on so many levels. Then he goes and signs the extension...

Start somewhere - if you have six illnesses attacking you, start with the one most life-threating you - I think the medical term is triage. But if you can't decide which is the worst, at least start on one of them - anyone. It is better than doing nothing.

Resin - excellent comments Re:Johjima, but one thing stands out.

Every year that Johjima has been in the league his backup has always had a lower catcher's ERA than him. There has to be something to that. This didn't happen when Dan Wilson was the catcher. He excelled at calling games.

Don't get me wrong, I love Johjima. But the language barrier is huge for a critical communication position in baseball. Think about the scenes in Bull Durham, where Crash Davis comes out to the mound and they talk about all kinds of random things, just to get the pitcher to relax and re-focus.

It's one of the intangibles of baseball. Now watch when Johjima visits the mound. The conversations are very short, abrupt, and the body language of the pitcher is usually disinterest. My guess is that Johjima is trying to relay a specific baseball related message in broken english, and general light conversation isn't happening.

So Scrapiron, are you suggesting we need a Spanish speaking catcher for Felix, Silva, and Batista, a French speaking one for Bedard, and a kid-glove catcher for Washburn who talks like Jan Johnson-from-Wisconsin? Why not try out Ichiro at pitcher for Johjima? Let's make sure all these multi-millionaire hurlers are comfy.

Johjima's defensive strengths far outweigh his weaknesses and has VERY little to do with why the bullpen and starters have pitched so erratically this season. Joh's offense has been his problem.

This was a clear example of the absolutist stathead thinking that garners Adam so much love on this blog.

And yet you are convinced your definition of "dogfight" is proper after engaging in EXACTLY the same type of analysis that I do. If this is a fight over the definition of "dogfight," fine. But your numbers really don't counter the argument that a division winner can win 90+ games in a tough division.

I showed yesterday that, in each of the past six years (that's as far back as I went), at least one AL division had three teams with at least 83 wins. Average number of wins for those division winners? Almost 98. Low number of wins for those division winners? 92.

So it is not hard to envision a team winning 90+ games in the AL West this year.

But even if we take your 89 wins to win the West, the Mariners have to go 74-48; that's still a .606 winning percentage. I listed the teams since 2002 that put up a .606 winning percentage after May 4. They averaged OPS+ over 113 and ERA+ over 114. In other words, they were really good teams. Are the Mariners that good?

And I as I also asked: Don't the Mariners also get caught up in the attrition of a three-team dogfight? Making their road to a division title even more difficult? Wouldn't the task of playing .600 ball be more difficult in a "dogfight" than in a division with only one other good team? Right now the Mariners have to show they can play with THREE teams, not one.

Also, I didn't base my assumptions on any win total. I did the math for 94 wins (which I believe is the number it will take), but I also did the math for 90 wins. I'll even give you 89 and my argument still stands.

The Mariners are in big trouble. Or so my absolutist stathead thinking has revealed...

Leadership. Leadership. Leadership. It's all about leadership. And the M's have none. Not in the front office. Not on the bench. Not in the clubhouse. And the only leadership exercised by Japanese ownership is to ensure security for the M's Japanese players.
The major differences between the 2007 and 2008 teams? There were Spanish-speaking coaches and Jose Guillen to bring cohesion to a sizeable section of the clubhouse. The FO deep sixed those assets.
It's a shame to see the wheels come off so early in the season, but that shouldn't afford the FO license to squander money and prospects in the vain pursuit of the Junior of 1995. All that would bring is a few more ticket sales and the assurance of many additional years of mediocrity.
Jojima is the lightning rod du jour because he's not a winner and because of the unfortunate timing of his generous contract. Nothing can be done about either. (I suspect that a certain closer would still be in the bullpen had he not tilted while tipsy.)
Prepare for another decade or so of frustration. While Lincoln can heat the seat of Bavasi, no one seems capable of returning the CEO to the cyber sector.

...lay off Washburn people. He is not the problem.

Agreed. He's not the problem, but he certainly is a problem. I've lost confidence in him. I have more confidence in Baek at this point. (Not that Baek is the answer, just pointing out how I feel regarding the current pitchers on the staff.)

Good post. Thanks for the behind the scenes info, Geoff.

Good Lord our clubhouse is a mess. I knew something was wrong when Sherrill and Jones both said how the O's clubhouse is so much better. Sherrill said he doesn't have to walk on eggshells anymore.

WOW. I cannot believe that you all are throwing in the towel on the season when the Mariners are finally starting to turn things around offensively having now scored 4 or more runs 3 games in a row. We would have won yesterday had Jose Lopez not flubbed a routine gounder. I don't see anyone talking about this!!!! (or at least in none of the posts I read). We are still in it if we can keep the runs coming in. The pitching will be there on most nights. If the offense is really showing signs of turning around, there is NO reason to start jumping ship yet.

Shame on you Geoff for not bringing this up!

I'm calling it now: M's will begin to make a strong push in the division this week and carry it through for the next month. This team is going to look a lot better come June 12th after they thump some contenders.

Jimmy out.

I thought most teams had a manager that called the game these days instead of the catcher. Why can't the Ms do this?

What sort of multi-cultural awareness/communication program do the Ms have if any?

I thought Hargrove sucked but McClaren is super weak. All I know is that ever since Hargrove walked the team has played steadily worse . . .

How will it end? For everyone with hopes of the 2008 M's turning it around...

For what it's worth (if anything at all), here's the rest of the story of how the M's finished each of the seasons below:

On this date the past several seasons:

2008: 15-25 (.375), 4th place, 8.5 back (finish ???)

2007: 17-16 (.515), 3rd place, 1.5 back (finished 88-74 (.543), 2nd place, 6 back)

2006: 16-22 (.421), 4th place, 4 back (78-84 (.481), 4th place, 15 back)

2005: 14-21 (.400), 4th place, 5.5 back (69-93 (.426), 4th place, 26 back)

2004: 12-22 (.343), 4th place, 10.5 back (63-99 (.384), 4th place, 29 back)

----------Bavasi takes over in 2004---------------

2003: 24-14 (.632), 1st place (93-69 (.574), 2nd place, 3 back)

2002: 26-11(.553), 1st place (93-69 (.574), 3rd place, 10 back)

If Johjima can't play then sit him, trade him, or waive him.
And if the Japanese owners mandated the contract - which I kind of doubt - that still doesn't mean that Bavasi and Mac can't sit Johjima or simply cut him. (We've written off a lot bigger contracts before under Bavasi's watch.)

Unfortunately for the Mariners, and the people who cover them, they are more focused on the fact that the guys in clubhouse aren't getting along.

First, who cares. Lots of teams hate each other. The great Yankee teams of the 70s were constantly at each other's throats.

Secondly, if the guys on the team were capable of doing their jobs they would be winning more. It can't be any fun to be on this team and to know that everyone of them is, basically, a loser. Winning creates chemistry. Losing doesn't.

Thirdly, the expectation for success starts at the top. Bavasi is terrible at his job. He has surrounded himself with a bunch of non-performers. And collectively they have created an atmosphere where losing - and discontent - is rampant.

Fire Bavasi - and the entire front office

Chris Antonetti in '08

PS: If the Japanese owners did, in fact, sign the Johjima contract shouldn't Bavasi quit now? He got his legs cut out from under him. Also, how was it possible, in a consensus driven organization, for the Japanese owners to force Larson and the rest of the American owners to sign Johjima.

This team just sounds and looks like an absolute mess from top to bottom.

Guys looking lost in the field, appearing to play for the themselves, bickering in the clubhouse, yada, yada....

How is this possibly going to resolve without significant changes being made?? Particularly if the losing continues.. and right now it seems certain that it will.

There is a great article in the Tacoma News Tribune today that lays out exactly why Bavasi is to blame.

I likes me some Jimmy! Or is it GetJimmy? His point is VERY well taken by yours truly. The team is finally hitting. The pitching will continue to be consistent (there's only been a scattered few non-quality starts like last night's). Joh is not a bad catcher. Washburn has said bad things about other players (Jose Guillen) before. He needs to zip it occasionally. I think he knows that.

The M's will be just fine in a few weeks. Me and Jimmy sez!

Scottm - No, you don't need a multi-lingual catcher. What you need is a catcher that speaks English well. That's why you don't hear the pitchers complaining they're not "on the same page" as Burke or Clement. Smaller sample size, granted, but point should be taken.

Since I haven't beaten the defensive drum in hours here's an interesting excerpt from a Baseball Prospectus article. The article examines why offense is down in the AL.

"Over the last year or so, we’ve heard a lot about teams getting away from the style of baseball played during the peak of the high-offense era, and trying to play better defense. Personnel decisions along the lines of playing Tony Pena Jr. or Asdrubal Cabrera add up, and they start to impact the league’s statistics. Teams have been choosing defense over offense, and that is probably the biggest reason for the drop in offense in the AL: personnel selection. Managers and GMs are putting lesser hitters on the field in an effort to prevent runs, and they’re getting just that result—for themselves and the opposition."

You can read the entire article here.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7514

Johjima isn't the problem! Maybe the guy isn't the greatest at calling games, but it's not like a percentage of the starts have been bad with him behind the plate. Since he's been with the team, I think this is the first season that he's actually struggled so give the guy a break.

I have no problem with the Japanese owner signing Ichiro and Johjima to an extension. It's not like both of their contracts are eating up a majority of the team's payroll. When the owner allows you a $115M+ payroll, it's up to the GM to spend that money wisely. That brings us back to the root of the problem, Bill Bavasi!

The argument, Adam, was that there is a scenario where the season is NOT lost, contrary to what you asserted in such absolute terms. Your 94 game assumption was part of that rationale. The "dogfight" scenario was the only glimmer of hope I could think of prior to last night.
(1) It assumed the M's would have to sustain an immediate winning streak to get back into the race, and
(2) They would have to be dominant within the ALWest, and
(3) That most "dogfight" scenarios result in lower win totals than 94 games for the Division champs.

In all your responses, you conveniently ignored number three. This season we haven't seen signs of a team resolve by which number one and two will happen.

"Don't the Mariners also get caught up in the attrition of a three-team dogfight? Making their road to a division title even more difficult? Wouldn't the task of playing .600 ball be more difficult in a "dogfight" than in a division with only one other good team? Right now the Mariners have to show they can play with THREE teams, not one."

Not necessarily, Adam. The M's would clearly need to be the DOMINANT team in the ALWest from here-on-out when playing head-to-head games. That is why I put such emphasis on sweeping the Rangers in this series.

I went in to do the 13 season analysis so I could speak "Stathead" and step on your turf to see if there was any substance to this "dogfight" hypothesis. There are clearly win total aberations, both high and low in the "dogfight" scenarios with a range of 98 to 78 games by the Division winners. There was, however, (over a sample size of 25 examples) enough evidence to indicate that, in a "dogfight", 89 games would be the most likely outcome. That, in itself, I think IS an interesting finding.

That said, it's probably not of any value to this team with what little the M's have shown us in '08.

'The Mariners are in big trouble."

There has never been ANY argument with that (less absolutist) statement! Especially after last night.

Scrapiron, I think that when things go badly in an organization, the scapegoating begins. Veteran pitchers like Washburn, Silva, Batista, Bedard, and even Felix tend to call their own pitches. Blaming the catcher for leaving pitches up in the strike zone is BS.

I've stated many times that Ibanez's defense in LF is not a glaring problem for the M's. Neither is Johjima's defense as a catcher. His hitting has sucked, of course. If the pitchers want him to set up a bit differently, then they need to communicate this. Also, the value of chummy meetings at the mound are overrated.

Again, the starting pitching has given up several losses, the bullpen even more, and the offensive lack of run production even more yet. Except for his pathetic bat, Joh has not been a problem for this team sucking.

Mike - to follow up, have you seen the 2007 and 2008 versions of the (Devil) Rays?

Last year, they were a mess defensively. This year, they are one of the better defensive teams in the game. Is it any coincidence that their pitching is MUCH better this year?

I wish the Mariners would figure this simple concept out...

ScottM - Again, aside from the fact that we haggle over the definition of "dogfight," both your numbers and mine show that winning 90+ games in a three-team divisional race is entire plausible. And even conceding the 89 wins you use, we've seen nothing from this team to suggest they can outplay three teams the rest of the way at a .600+ clip to get there.

Would you rather have Johjima or :

Miguel Olivo?
Pat Borders?
Yorvit Torrealba?
Wiki Gonzalez?
Miguel Ojeda?
Rene Rivera?
Ben Davis?

2005 wasn't that long ago.

"Would you rather have Johjima or :..."
I'll settle for Varitek.

shouldnt we be entending bloomquist before giving joh any 3 year extention. put the team on Willie's shoulders, not joh.

"I've stated many times that Ibanez's defense in LF is not a glaring problem for the M's."

It's not glaring because those balls Ibanez doesn't reach don't always stand out. A ball lands in the gap 2 feet from his glove and instead of two outs and no one on you have one out and a runner in scoring position. And it is not just turning fly balls into outs. It's not getting over fast enough to keep a single from turning into a triple. But the thing is, unless it's just a boner of a play, you forget about it and remember the following single, or sac fly.

But let's say that only once a week does Ibanez not reach a ball that an average left fielder (not a good or great one...just an average one) would get to. That's 26 plays at approximately .8 runs per play meaning in this scenario that Ibanez costs you 21 runs a year.

So, not glaring and perhaps not as big a weakness as our offense (last night excepted) but very important.

Scottm - I agree to all your points on Johjima. But I'm not taking the near-sighted approach. Pitchers have been complaining about Johjima for years, not just this year. Jamie Moyer complained about Johjima after he got traded, so he wouldn't be labeled a whiny complainer like everyone is now labeling Washburn.

And Johjima's defense is not the reason why we aren't scoring runs. But it is a problem, and hopefully Roger Hansen can nip it in the bud.

"we've seen nothing from this team to suggest..."

Yep. In business, there is an adage that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver. McLaren, in Spring Training, had reason to be optimistic, but he grossly overpromised to the point where I think the M's players honestly believed that teams would roll over to accommodate their avowed destiny.

I actually think that in '09, with this bitter taste of humble pie, and a few key changes in position players with Sexson and Vidro gone (along with McLaren as a victim of grossly unmet expectations), the resolve, attitude and focus of this Seattle Mariner squad will be much more conducive to winning and staying in the race from day one.

Adam--Indeed. I posted about TB's turnaround yesterday.

Varitek didn't catch for the Mariners in 2005. Those other guys did and thats why they had to go get a catcher.

Mike. Yes, Ibanez has average range. He breaks well on the ball, has a decent, if not great arm, and is fundamentally sound.

By comparison, Jose Lopez should keep his head in the game half as well as Raul. I can think of at least three games now where Lopez's lack of concentration has caused us to lose, including last night!

Ibanez has not cost us any games on defense.

This argument of the relative value of defensive corner outfielding has been beaten to death.

How many games have our SP cost us? Bullpen? Lack of run production?

There are surely better defensive Left Fielders in baseball, but this is a far cry for why this team has sucked this season.

Geoff,

Please oil your front door.

And Geoff, do the dishes.

Scrapiron. I'm still hoping that Johjima will be packaged in a trade for Griffey (and that it was for this reason and not pressure from Japanese owners that caused Joh's extension).

Today, I heard on KJR an argument over whether it would be worth it to get Griffey for $5 million a year.

I say absolutely. Even if his production is fairly average, he will bring fans to the ballpark. One concern I have with this season and this team is a dramatic fall-off in attendance. If this occurs, then M's Management might simply choose to release Vidro and Sexson for '09 and NOT replace $23 million in salary with position players who can actually help the team compete in '09 when we will still have this SP rotation. Griffey will, from a business standpoint, keep revenues to the point where salary spending will stay the same.

"There are surely better defensive Left Fielders in baseball, but this is a far cry for why this team has sucked this season."

We agree on both these points. I disagree that Raul has average range. He has better range than Manny Ramirez and that's it. Defensive metrics bear this out. He is a bad left fielder, first step aside. And my point is that bad defense makes pitching look worse than it is. Since I just referenced it with Adam, here's what I said about TB.

"Looking at Tampa's turnaround, they are actually striking out fewer (6.08K/9) this year than last and their K/BB is also down (1.77 compared to 2.1).

But one huge difference is that they are turning batted balls into outs at a much higher rate (last year .662 and this year .720). Improving the defense seems to have helped make a big difference. That differential works out to be 57 hits over 39 games, a big reason they've gone from giving up 5.8 runs a game to 4.2."

Yes we have bigger problems but going forward I'd like to try to do as you suggest and get into a dogfight and claw our way back. So let's address everything and make ourselves as good as we can be. The task is monumental but let's not hamstring ourselves before we begin.

Would you rather have Johjima or : Miguel Olivo? Pat Borders? Yorvit Torrealba? Wiki Gonzalez? Miguel Ojeda? Rene Rivera? Ben Davis? 2005 wasn't that long ago.

I see where you're going, and while I would choose Joh over any on your list, an alternate question may be, "would you rather have a better defensive catcher than Joh?"

You could also extend your argument to, "would you rather have Sexson or Speezio, Lopez or Aurillia...", etc. In other words, you could compare any of the mediocre players currently on the roster to much more crappy players from great M's teams gone by.

But it's time to look forward, not back. If Joh's the best option now, then stick with him. Whatever his value is, it should be based on what he is actually doing (or not doing) for the team; his value should not be measured by comparisons to more underachieving catchers of the past.

"Mike. Yes, Ibanez has average range. He breaks well on the ball, has a decent, if not great arm, and is fundamentally sound."

No, he doesn't have average range, he has poor range, he gets average jumps, his arm is bad (I actually did a double take on that one) and for the most part he's fundamentally sound. But there is a difference between being fundamentally sound, and having the tools to play the position. Ibanez doesn't posses them.

Johjima and say, Ryan Feirabend for Griffey makes sense, as long as we aren't forced to pick up the $16 million 2009 option. Maybe give him $20 million for two more seasons.

What this accomplishes: Clement becomes the full time catcher. Balentien moves to left and Ibanez moves to DH so the defense is now better in two positions. The Mariners finally get their clubhouse leader to take the pressure off everyone else so team chemistry improves. Fans return to Safeco so management doesn't have to watch the bottom line as much.

2008 is still a lost cause, but frees them to let Vidro and Sexson go at the end of the year and puts $22.5 million on the books to sign Teixera. That 2009 team looks ready to compete. Sign Bedard and Hernandez long term and you got the foundation of a long term pennant contender.

Dr. Detecto who has been one of Kenji's staunchest defenders, has now thrown Kenji under the bus, concluding that Kenji costs his pitcher 100 OPS points vs generic backup catcher (Burke/Rivera).t

http://detectovision.com/?p=1380#more-1380

Why do we keep playing Cairo at 1st? Is he useful at all? What is Vidro doing not playing 1st? Or even Ibanez?

If we play Cairo at first doesn't that reduce his value as the all-important back-up pinch runner?

The fact that he's even on the team tells me McLaren is not the man for this job.

Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense.

It's just that simple. Your eyes are wrong. He sucks at defense. He. Sucks. At. Defense.

Jose Lopez, on the other hand, does not.

Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense. Raul sucks at defense.

And he doesn't hit lefties worth a darn but against righties he's a beast.

For the conspiracy-inclined, Ken Griffey is sitting out tonight's game. :-)

To Mike - maybe Raul only costs us 21 runs over the year, but he spent 3 or 4 of those last weekend. Play him at first, or DH, and he's a greater asset.
"Joh is not the problem" - see my earlier post, there are half a dozen problems, maybe more. Start paring away on at least one to start - Cairo, Vidro, etc., etc. But Joh is out of place behind the plate. Today. If Hansen can turn him around, all the more reason to scream for Bavasi's head - "Why didn't you do that last year or two?"
We have multiple problems, and let's make some improvements.
Leaders lead, followers react. Which do we have?

Ziasudra---Could not agree more.

JR needs the rest....

He's an old man!

"Dr. Detecto who has been one of Kenji's staunchest defenders, has now thrown Kenji under the bus, concluding that Kenji costs his pitcher 100 OPS points vs generic backup catcher (Burke/Rivera)."

Or the pitchers could, oh I don't know, shake him off if they don't like the call? Nothing annoys me more than people who blame the catchers for the pitchers being giant piles of suck.

"Dr. Detecto who has been one of Kenji's staunchest defenders, has now thrown Kenji under the bus, concluding that Kenji costs his pitcher 100 OPS points vs generic backup catcher (Burke/Rivera)."

I think the promblem is more complicated if you look deeper in the stats.

DER goes up when Johjima is catching.
xFIP and FIP goes down.

So Johjima calls a good game to the pitcher but the defender are not in synch with him.

It is a more complicated situation and if you just look at pitcher and catche the problem will not be solved. Otherwise the M's would have solved it.

" ' OK, make it 89 wins. Do you think we'll go 74-48 the rest of the way?' "

"My post in the last thread was based on the idea that a "dogfight" between three or four teams in the ALWest offered the best chance for the M's to get back in this race."

I'm just saying that point is moot, since the M's can't reach either of those totals. It's like me saying that my best shot at a weight lifting record is the bench press, cuz I only need to beat my one rep max by 750 pounds.

The thing is, it's actually possible to have fun watching baseball in a year when your team isn't competitive. What you need though is a team with a plan for the future, and this is not such a team. They're flailing because they gave Bavasi a "Win now or be fired" ultimatum along with a team that wasn't close enough to win now.

I don't get the "we don't need to blow the team up" people. What's so bad about blowing the team up? Is the thought of not getting to watch Vidro and Sexon fail at the plate too much to bear? Can we not stand the risk of being deprived of our aging veterans with one more year on them next year? Other than our few good young players, what about this team inspires anyone to be careful with explosives?