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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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April 18, 2008 11:36 AM

Big weekend ahead

Posted by Geoff Baker

Sitting at the Oakland Airport, waiting to catch my flight to Orange County ahead of tonight's Mariners game against the Los Angeles Angels. I'll show you the video later. First, let me say how disappointed I am with some of the quality of discussion taking place on this site the past 24 hours. Truth is, the comments we generate represent a tiny fraction of our overall readership, which has nearly tripled since the start of last season. So, I'm not going to live and die off the comments, but, on the other hand, I do believe they are a reflection of who we are and what we want this blog to be.

I've said it before. This is a place where everyone, Adam, Mr. X, Oregongal, Stango, Chris from Bothel, and anyone else, should feel free to comment. I love having Adam on this site to play devil's advocate and push the sabermetric point of view. And he should be able to do it without being called a bunch of names. Argue your points with him, passionately if you want, but don't lower yourselves to mudslinging. It disproves everything you set out to do. For the record, I read USS Mariner every day, along with Lookout Landing, Detect-O-Vision and a bunch of other sites many of you have never heard of. I like listening to what USS Mariner has to say. They are having an event down the road that I will be making every effort to attend. Sure, we zap each other from time to time, sometimes just to keep things interesting. It's a long season.

The best part about the Seattle blogosphere is that you have both of us to listen to. We even agree on a whole lot of things, like the worthlessness of batting average, the uselessness of bunting in a majority of situations and the abilities of Reed Johnson and how he would have made a fine addition to the Mariners this year. We disagree on other stuff -- loudly disagree at times. So what? Get over it. Read both sites. It's not like you have to show an ID card to get past the velvet rope.


I'm not naive. I know where a lot of the animosity comes from. Some of you think that posters on that site -- and on this one-- try too hard to push a negative point of view.

I can't speak for them. I know they are fans, or they would be seriously wasting their time trying to run a website that generates just about zero revenue. So, let's get past that argument, please.

I can speak for myself. The way I look at things, is, a critical eye is needed when you cover a baseball team as a professional journalist, which I am. That said, it's a delicate balancing act as to whether your critical eye is being a little too fine-tuned. You don't want to be heaping criticism on a team every day for six months, only to finally admit the team is pretty darned good the day it clinches a division title.

That's bad journalism. It's more self-serving than it is a public service.

So, we try to balance those interests daily. Measure our criticism against the results actually being put up by the team over the longer term. I have been in favor of the Carlos Silva signing from the start because of his demonstrated ability to go seven innings. Whether it's making a certain pitch he needs in a key situation, or avoiding the situations that lead to big innings and run up pitch counts, he can do it.

I am not going to call what he's doing "a fluke" because he's done it before. Not this well -- with as few runs allowed -- but in my book, any pitcher who goes seven innings, allowing four earned runs or less, gives his team a chance to win every night.

It's not as if we can argue his defense has been saving him. He plays for the M's. This team's defense is not as bad as some think, but it's hardly great. So, that's my take on Silva. Want to argue otherwise, go ahead. But do it with some civility.

A big weekend coming up for a team on a roll. The M's have avoided potential road disaster by sweeping the A's. Now, they can try to make some headway.


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Posted by jonathanb

11:46 AM, Apr 18, 2008

can we go to disneyland now daddy?

Posted by Kunkoh

11:47 AM, Apr 18, 2008

Thank you for saying that. I enjoy reading those blogs & yours; but the bipartisanship in them gets terribly annoying. No one is right 100% of the time; but all the blogs are pulling for the M's to win. They just have slightly different ideas about the best way to do it. Reading things from different sources is a good way to keep an open mind and potentially learn new things.

The mudslinging in the last post/thread was just ridiculous. It's a shame the "fans" of the different sites spew such venom; when the actual writers have a friendly relationship. (and no, friends don't always agree about everything. That's what keeps conversation interesting)

Posted by higbie

11:54 AM, Apr 18, 2008

wow, who turned Geoff into the Queen of Sheba?

Posted by ceepdublu

11:58 AM, Apr 18, 2008

I read your blog and USSM every day, but rarely even glance at comments anymore. I just don't have the time to read 125 comments complaining about decisions that Mac makes throughout the game.

The thing that distinguishes your blog from the rest, Geoff, is the behind-the-scenes look at the game. I've often told people to check out your blog because you will occasionally ask the team questions directly based on comments you get here. Where else do we, as fans, get direct access to the clubhouse?

I know that USSM has had similar problems with comments getting out of hand. I guess that's one negative byproduct of the team we love doing well.

Posted by Patrick from Kent

12:00 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Is anyone else excited to see our knucker Dickey on the hill tonight? I am excited!!!

Posted by M's Fan in Hawaii

12:03 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I am excited to see Dickey as well. It is the only game I will get on TV because FS West isnt broadcasting the weekend games. But I will be at the computer on Sat and Sun.

Posted by LAMariner

12:04 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Geoff, if you want civility you only need to make examples of a few posters by blocking their ability to post for a while. If you don't have a line in the sand and there's no price to pay for name calling, etc., the practice will only continue. This blog is too good. Don't let it get destroyed by a few miscreants.

Posted by TimsHead

12:07 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I think some people don't want to acknowledge Silva's success because then they would have to admit that sometimes Mariners' front office actually makes a good move.

Oh sure, some could argue his price tag or fabricate some statistical measure that questions his effectiveness ("Left-handed batters born in Idaho during February are hitting .287 against him on the road during the fourth inning. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!1!) but the stats we should care most about are four, three, zero and 2.79. That is: Four starts to open the season of at least seven innings, three wins, zero losses and a 2.79 ERA. (You can also throw in a very impressive 1.14 walks+hits/innings pitched.) So he's not flashy and doesn't strike a lot of people out. He doesn't walk a lot of people either, and that's a cardinal sin of baseball.

So don't take out your dislike of the FO on Silva. He's doing what was asked of him and more.

Oh, and as a card-carrying member of the RA Dickey Fan Club, I'm thrilled with his opportunity tonight, especially after reading his backstory. The only way I could hold him in higher esteem right now is if he had throwback muttonchop sideburns and a handlebar mustache, which is what I would totally expect a knuckleballer named RA Dickey to have. Oh well.

Posted by Lance

12:08 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Like many others, I'm sure, I'm concerned about Felix' "instinctive" habit of reaching out for line drives up the middle with his bare hand.

One single isn't worth losing your ace for months with a broken hand. I'm also concerned with McLaren's unwillingness to deal with the situation beacuse he believes it won't do any good.

So, I'd like to propose a possible salution. Since it's common for infielders to "take" a hundred ground balls a day, Felix, on a day he's not pitching, should have someone hit a hundred fungoes at and all around him.

Felix can judge which ones he can catch or field with his glove. However, if he as much as reaches for just one with his bare hand the practice is stopped. Which means he does the "one hundred" all over again the next day.

It's a terrible habit he's got. But, habits can be broken. And, this one absolutely needs to be. before the entire Mariners season comes crashing down due to a major Felix inury.

Right now it appears to me like the proverbial accident waiting to happen.

Posted by AdamB

12:10 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I dont even think it is appropriate to compare this site with USSM because they hardly post any content anymore. Their posts over the past week MAYBE reach the 1,000 word count (aside from the 5 year diatribe) and Geoff's probably amount to five times that or more. (Do not hold me to these numbers I am bad at eyeballing, the point is Geoff and even the other Jeff at LL, pump out way more content than USSM).

Posted by Number4545

12:13 PM, Apr 18, 2008

maybe someone here can answer this - I don't have a lot of baseball experience, but do they train guys to check the cather when stealing a base? They all do it. I do have some running experience (and was watching a game with a track coach), and we both agreed that turning your head slows you down, losing enough time that it could concievably make a difference on plays that are often close. You are pretty much going to have to get down anyway, so why bother looking at the catcher? Anybody know?

Posted by Merrill

12:19 PM, Apr 18, 2008

RADicals Unite!

Yeah, Lance, I agree, what is that, three times in four games now???

Mike, this BABIP thing is pretty interesting. You can read about it a little bit by checking out Voros McCracken, the FIP/xFIP guy Adam was talking about. There's a link in a Wikipedia article about defense-independent pitching to an article by McCracken.

If I remember right (and I'm not sure I do, because it's been a while, plus I should've gone to bed three hours ago, being that it's 2:12 am here), BABIP isn't a function of skill. I don't remember why, due to the factors above. I also don't remember the difference between BABIP and BA.--o yeah, BA included strikeouts.

Adam has pointed out the stat has a use in that one can see if someone's (either a hitter or a pitcher) BABIP is above or below average, then we can say that player has been either lucky or unlucky, and thus it's not a repeatable skill.

Good point about ground balls versus fly balls, though.

In fact, I just realized that I learned this stuff during our original conversation about the new CRAZY stats. I was trying to find some info on how they developed and measured the defensive range stats etc., and couldn't find anything, but found and read that stuff instead.

Posted by Lance

12:19 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Like many others, I'm sure, I'm concerned about Felix' "instinctive" habit of reaching out for line drives up the middle with his bare hand.

One single isn't worth losing your ace for months with a broken hand. I'm also concerned with McLaren's unwillingness to deal with the situation beacuse he believes it won't do any good.

So, I'd like to propose a possible salution. Since it's common for infielders to "take" a hundred ground balls a day, Felix, on a day he's not pitching, should have someone hit a hundred fungoes at and all around him.

Felix can judge which ones he can catch or field with his glove. However, if he as much as reaches for just one with his bare hand the practice is stopped. Which means he does the "one hundred" all over again the next day.

It's a terrible habit he's got. But, habits can be broken. And, this one absolutely needs to be. before the entire Mariners season comes crashing down due to a major Felix inury.

Right now it appears to me like the proverbial accident waiting to happen.

Posted by Blair

12:20 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Number,
I would think they are doing it to check the batter and see if he is swinging as they have to know if the ball is in play and where it is going to be. The thing that annoys me is when I see guys looking at the infielder when they are running to first. May as well run hard through the base every time and not check to see what the fielder is doing. Hoping to see some good knucklers tonight!

Posted by Nat

12:29 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Walla Walla Girl: no offense, but to set the record straight there is only one King in baseball - that would be King Felix! Everyone knows this. But feel free to annoint a Prince or Duke, i.e., Duke Silva, as Chris from Bothell calls him.

It occurs to me, does anyone ever wonder where Cubby went? I hear the same flaming tone and name calling and kind of remarks coming from -k- hmmm, something to think about, isn't it? And, -k, ha! I would hardly call yourself a voice of reason. LOL.

Geoff, thanks for your plea for reason in this blog. It seems that every so often it’s needed.

But on to a thought that actually concerns baseball: I also can't wait to see Dickey tonight! It should be a very fun show watching him mow down Angel hitters. Can’t wait to see how they hit the knuckleball! Both of them, actually. The article in today's ST about him tugged at my emotions - he's gone through a lot of ups and downs. If he can go at least five or six innings tonight this should be a good one

Posted by Mike

12:30 PM, Apr 18, 2008

"Oh sure, some could argue his price tag or fabricate some statistical measure that questions his effectiveness ("Left-handed batters born in Idaho during February are hitting .287 against him on the road during the fourth inning. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!1!) "

And here I thought we were making some progress. It is easy to win an argument when you mischaracterize what someone else is saying. No one is fabricating anything. We are trying to ascertain if Silva is doing something different and to see whether this success might be sustainable.

Posted by jpit

12:32 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Any guesses as to who will be moved when Bedard and Morse come off the DL?

Posted by Nat

12:32 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Walla Walla Girl: from the last thread- no offense, but to set the record straight there is only one King in baseball - that would be King Felix! Everyone knows this. But feel free to annoint a Prince or Duke, i.e., Duke Silva, as Chris from Bothell calls him.

It occurs to me, does anyone ever wonder where Cubby went? I hear the same flaming tone and name calling and kind of remarks coming from -k- hmmm, something to think about, isn't it? And, -k, ha! I would hardly call yourself a voice of reason. LOL.

Geoff, thanks for your plea for reason in this blog. It seems that every so often it’s needed.

But on to a thought that actually concerns baseball: I also can't wait to see Dickey tonight! It should be a very fun show watching him mow down Angel hitters. Can’t wait to see how they hit the knuckleball! Both of them, actually. The article in today's ST about him tugged at my emotions - he's gone through a lot of ups and downs. If he can go at least five or six innings tonight this should be a good one

Posted by scottM

12:36 PM, Apr 18, 2008

"I read your blog and USSM every day, but rarely even glance at comments anymore. I just don't have the time to read 125 comments complaining about decisions that Mac makes throughout the game."

Is this a recommendation for a Blogless Blog? If no one comments, then this will be simply an op-ed piece from the professional journalist.

GEOFF's thoughtful commentary and high-tech wizardry is always appreciatied, but I've learned every bit as much from fellow bloggers as from GEOFF. Part of the key is in learning to read a blog. It doesn't take long to recognize the flamers and trolls. Skip on down to the next post.

Welcome to the new frontier of e-journalism. Open access with anonymity invites infantile rudeness. I belong to another website where there is no anonymity. Everyone knows who is posting. The personal attacking and inappropriate comments are greatly reduced.

It used to be in the snail-mail days, the Seattle Times only printed a letter-to-the-editor if the name of the writer was verifiable.

In no way do I in favor of a blog where censorship looms, but knowing who is posting has some merit, even though it will discourage many from posting at all.

Enough edifying. Here's to Dickey tonight, and his gravity-defying, fast-floating wonder pitch.

Posted by Adam

12:37 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I see we are back to having to copy our entire comment, refreshing the page, and pasting it back in to make the comment stick...


Re: BABIP - I think that substantial deviations from the norm (around .300) can be attributed to luck. For instance, Wilkerson's BABIP over the past four years has been .292, .315, .292, and .274. This year it is .179. There's no reason to believe he'll continue that dismal mark. He's been unlucky.

However, some hitters can consistently have a higher BABIP because of speed (see Ichiro or Willy Tavares). Others can consistenly have a lower BABIP due to their own shortcomings.

On the defensive side, while you should expect over the course of a season for the average defesive efficiency (1-BABIP) to be around .700, (see: http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204048), some teams are genuinely better than others at getting to batted balls and getting outs.

You'll notice how terrible the Rays were last year; this explains some of their pitching problems - getting Bartlett in the Young/Garza trade was a great move.

And over the course of a season, the better teams should have higher efficiency ratings than the poorer teams so as to explain deviations from the norm.

That's how I see it, any way...

Posted by AKMarinersFan

12:49 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Being critical does not equal being negative.

I love Ichiro, I love Felix, I love Raul (offense), I love Yuni, I love Lopez (most of the time), I love JJ, I love Beltre, and I love some of the young guys who are buried in the system and will never be used until its too late....

I give credit where credit is due. Raul has been a monster at the plate and he's a guy that is hard not to like.

But I think a lot of this teams success this year has came against some very poor pitching (and horrible hitting the last two nights). If the Mairners can score runs against Saunders tonight I will be a believer.

Posted by hermann22

12:51 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Its sad that Geoff has to waste a LONG blog on this..I rather have him writing about tonights game...

but thats just me...

Paul

Posted by Merrill

12:51 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Thanks, Adam, that makes sense.

OK, folks, I'm outie--g'nite... "and have a pleasant tomorrow."

O yeah, Adam; re: posting:

Really? I guess I'm about to find out. Remember, the time out has been lengthened, but it still ain't forever (or even a bed of roses, or a bowl of cherries, for that matter)...

Posted by Merrill

12:55 PM, Apr 18, 2008

AK M's--Good pitching nearly always beats good hitting. I'm sure you know that, don't mean to condescend. One benefit of their new more patient approach is to force Saunders to throw strikes (although that didn't work too well for the A's against Felix and Carlos, since they did, and their hitters then found themselves down), which could mean getting into the bullpen earlier even if Saunders is going good.

But to say the offense isn't good because they don't score much against a very good pitcher on a hot streak doesn't make much sense to me.

Posted by Lance

12:56 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Like many others, I'm sure, I'm concerned about Felix' "instinctive" habit of reaching out for line drives up the middle with his bare hand.

One single isn't worth losing your ace for months with a broken hand. I'm also concerned with McLaren's unwillingness to deal with the situation beacuse he believes it won't do any good.

So, I'd like to propose a possible salution. Since it's common for infielders to "take" a hundred ground balls a day, Felix, on a day he's not pitching, should have someone hit a hundred fungoes at and all around him.

Felix can judge which ones he can catch or field with his glove. However, if he as much as reaches for just one with his bare hand the practice is stopped. Which means he does the "one hundred" all over again the next day.

It's a terrible habit he's got. But, habits can be broken. And, this one absolutely needs to be. before the entire Mariners season comes crashing down due to a major Felix inury.

Right now it appears to me like the proverbial accident waiting to happen.

Posted by Merrill

1:01 PM, Apr 18, 2008

How many times you gonna post that, Sir Post-A-Lot?

Posted by Lance

1:01 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Soory about that. I'm having trouble with my computer, the site, or a combination of both. It's not telling me anything. Whether my comment posted or was rejected. It just goes blank, other than the heading and ads. Glad I finally checked.

Posted by ChicoV

1:01 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I can't wait to see RJD strike out Guerrero 2nite!

And yes many of us read and post almost never.

The emotional rollercoaster some people seem to have been through in just 2 short baseball weeks would be funny of not for their obvious obsession to be correct.

Posted by eastcoast

1:02 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I come to this blog to read what others have to say and express my point of view. But it is exactly that, MY POINT OF VIEW. If others agree, disagree, or simply don't give a crap about what I have to say, then that's fine. That is their choice.

For instance, I choose not to acknowledge two bloggers who are viciously ripping at each other. I also don't really buy into all the statistical analysis that goes on here... but I don't lay into those individuals who do, I simply don't comment.

Anyway, lets talk about important things like baseball. Geoff alluded to the "upside down universe" that is the M's new found patience at the plate. I don't know that I agree 100% just yet. Weds was a perfect example, zero walks and several first pitch swings. However, there does appear to be an effort to change their approach - but it is a work in progress.

As for the Angels, I would be lying if I didn't say that I am concerned about the possibility of a sweep. I think our SP just doesn't match up very well. I am very interested to see how Dickey pitches tonight, I think he has to chance to be a very valuable asset to the pitching staff (a la Wakefield). Hopefully, we see the M's scratch and claw for every one - because they will need to in order to win one or two.

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

1:03 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Nat, fair enough. Duke Silva works for me. Let's hope he keeps it going all season.

I'm looking forward to tonight's game. Bring on RA Dickey.

Posted by Merrill

1:05 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Ah, well, here's the new formula that is working for me and seems to be a general thing, since I offered it to Walla Walla Girl and she said "thanks," which can only mean it must have worked:

Post, hit "back," reload that page, and voila! You've got your post, posted, plus the page, updated.

Hope that helps and you're not having trouble with your computer. If so, bummer.

Posted by Brian

1:05 PM, Apr 18, 2008

One thing I noticed about USSM recently was that they do not make personal attacks, and don't tolerate others doing that. Recently someone called Bavasi a name, and they made it very clear that while it is ok to say he made a stupid trade or signing, it is NOT ok to say HE is stupid. I thought that was classy and a good example of the tone these blogs should have.

As much as they disagree with Bavasi, they have said many times they like him personally, and I think one time he even met with them, and they prasied him for being a stand-up kind of guy.

Let's remember we are all on the same side here. We love the M's and want them to win.

But I will say personal attacks and bickering don't just happen on baseball blogs. I am a weather geek, and frequently post on weather forums, and there is a LOT more bickering there. About weather of all things. Which we have no control over. And I don't mean whether or not you like this or that kind of weather, even amongst people who all like the same kind of weather and want the same kind of weather.

But if they all got together for dinner somewhere and met in person, they would probably get along much better.

Posted by tallahassee-mariner's fan

1:10 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Is Raul for real this year?

Consider this:

Currently ranks 9th in AL Batting Average
3rd in HR's
3rd in RBI's
2nd in Slugging

Just something to think about.

Posted by Merrill

1:11 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Yeah, that seems good, Brian. As many have said, "if what you say would get you slapped or slugged in a bar, don't say it."

Posted by Lance

1:13 PM, Apr 18, 2008

merrill, I used to do what you suggested but that stopped working for me weeks ago. However, that problem was fixed when the Times added the "back to page" option when one is told whether their comment is confirmed or rejected.

The problem is that all of a sudden it doesn't say either. Just a bug that suddenly popped up that, hopefully, they'll have fixed in a few hours. Unless it's happening on my end.

Posted by SDF Mariner

1:15 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Harumph! Thanks for setting the tone on this blog. I think anybody with a brain is sick and tired of the pointless comments from both sides of the fence. Let's just talk baseball and stay away from the childish remarks.

Go M's!

Posted by Chris from Bothell

1:28 PM, Apr 18, 2008

What I wanna know:

- Do pitching trackers like the one on GameDay have a hard time describing a knuckleball?
- Will RAD throw it as his go-to pitch, or just often enough to keep it in the hitters' heads?
- Will there be anything more satisfying than Vlad swinging at a strike-3 knuckler?
- Since JJ is up here getting more work, he's not only out of the series, he's not even in the same state... so if there's a series win or better, is that beating the Angels with one hand tied behind the M's backs?
- Will the blogosphere openly revolt if RAD pitches well tonight and then doesn't start again for a couple weeks or more?
- More Norton and Bloomquist tonight?
- Why can I not bring myself to wish everyone a Happy Dickey Day w/o snickering like an 11-year-old?

Posted by Walla Walla Girl

1:31 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Lance, Merrill's suggestion is working for me. I was having the same problem as you (just the last day or so) where after I press Submit, there is no confirmation or anything. So yes, I have the same bug at present, but Merrill's tip saved the day. Good luck and Go M's!

Posted by Chris from Bothell

1:34 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Number4545 - My understanding is that one runs on the pitcher, not the catcher. Unless the catcher is elite at throwing guys out, in which case it makes you hestitate on those borderline times. But once you're running, you're off and running. It's all based on timing the pitcher's time from windup to the plate, and knowing their cues of when they're truly starting their motion. If you're off to a good start, I'd think you'd be more than halfway to the base by the time the catcher has ball in hand and is starting to throw back, so too late even if you saw something for some reason.

Posted by Mike

1:37 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Chris---Perhaps we share the same inner-adolescent. I'm 46 and still think "Dickeyheads" is a much better name than "RADicals."

Posted by Nat

1:37 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Walla Walla Girl- every time I see film of Felix on ESPN putting away hitter after hitter, and he's referred to as 'King Felix' I am so-o-o glad he belongs to us!!! (No one even calls Santana or Beckett 'King!') Very cool.

Lance, gotta agree with you on the deal about Felix sticking out his hand like that. It's annoying to see him do that. And even more annoying that Mac doesn't plan to say anything to him about it. Seeing Felix out with a broken wrist would cause everybody great distress! Mac, just tell him not to do it, OK? EVERY SINGLE TIME!

Posted by John

1:39 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Actually, I think a devil's advocate on this blog would be someone who LIKES Bavasi and McClaren.

Posted by Merrill

1:47 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Mac has told him not to do it, but he can't seem to stop himself. Lance's suggestion is a good one. It's a sort of autonomic response, and the trick to defeating it is reprogramming.

Posted by Paul

1:55 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Yeah, Tallahassee, Raul has been rediculous so far. But if you remember how he finished last year, he seems to just be building on that. If he can put a whole season together and stay healthy...I don't expect him to compete for MVP or anything.....but we know he's capable of sustaining a .300+, 30+ HR, 110+ RBI season. With this great start, maybe he'll raise the bar even higher. What the heck, let's start the "Raul for MVP" campaign right now. Now if Ichiro can only get it going...

Posted by xweb

1:57 PM, Apr 18, 2008

There seems to be a concerted effort today to talk about the baseball. Can we please all agree that at least 50% of each post must be devoted to a previous poster, other Ms blogs, or oneself?

Chris from Bothell/Wallagirl - Too bad you're wasting Duke on Silva. Duke Dickey has a certain ring to it, don't you think? Say it ten times fast for fun.

Posted by Simon

2:14 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I can't wait to see Dickey pitch tonight. It's pretty amazing how the guy has completely reinvented his game over the last few years. You have to be pleased for the guy to be getting this opportunity.

If he does pitch well, it could lead to issues once Bedard is healthy again. Personally, I'd prefer to see Washburn sit, but that's probably not going to happen...

Posted by Ziasudra

2:16 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Stat-prof - sounds good to me.
You've all heard the computer-speak, "garbage in, garbage out." There is a real, undiscussed, variation on that: "Here's my answer; I'll select some inputs to get what I wan't." Don't confuse me with YOUR facts, my mind is made up (using MY facts.)

(3rd try at submittal. . . .)

Posted by Paul

2:23 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I can see the article now, Lance:

KING FELIX DETHRONED

The Seattle Mariners' season just took a devastating turn when their de facto ace pitcher, Felix Hernandez, broke his nose during fielding practice yesterday. Team physicians say that the 22 year old phenom sustained a broken nose, but it's too early to tell how long he will be sidelined or how the injury will impact his pitching.

Manager John MacLaren described the incident, "Richie (Sexson) needed a little extra BP, and it just so happens that Felix needed some work with fielding and decision-making on the mound.... so the plan was to have Richie hit about 100 liners at Felix from 60 feet away and tell Felix to dodge them, you know, just get the hell out of the way." MacLaren said Hernandez managed to dodge about 10 or 12 line drives before taking one squarely in the nose.

"I didn't even see that one coming", a nasally Hernandez claimed afterward. "Mac didn't even let me bring my glove out there. Her just kept yelling at me from the first-base line to keep my hands down... Now I know what happens when I keep my hands down."

A contrite MacLaren admitted that it was probably an ill-conceived training plan, "yeah, I should've backed him up to 65 or 70 feet probably. Or at least taken the blindfold off. That probably made the difference right there."

There is a silver lining, though. "I' really think I worked some things out during that BP session", claimed Sexson. "I know Felix is hurt, but it's a small price to pay for me to get my fourteen million dollar stroke back."

Indeed.

Posted by HerrinLaw

2:28 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Geoff - On a semi-unrelated note, what happened with the talks to sign Felix to an extension?

Posted by scottM

2:30 PM, Apr 18, 2008

What this blog needs is "principled conversation." You know, the kind that Clay Bennett says needs to happen with the City of Seattle. You know, the kind that took place a year ago when his good ol' boy buddies e-mailed him with their ten gallon congratulations, and he responded by assuring them that he was "a man possessed."

Oh, wait, he claims he was talkin' about keeping the team in Seattle and not poaching it to OK City.

Mama never told me there was such a thing as a "principled liar."

Ooops, wrong blog. ;=)

Posted by Adam

2:36 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Ziasudra - You are always welcome to actually debate the merits of the data provided, and provide your own arguments, rather than construct a straw man.

Posted by Nat

2:48 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Very creative storyline, Paul!

Merrill- do you actually think that's gonna happen? I heard Mac say on the post-game show a few nights ago he'd decided he wasn't going to say anything to Felix about it. I say, tell Felix 2 or 3 more times. There is a saying that if you tell people something once, they'll forget it, but if you tell them 3x - over time - they'll remember it.

When I used to teach I tried to remember that part of it. I also reiterated that to my students when they forgot what was just said. For instance, for people who have never used a computer before or are learning a program like excel for the first time it can seem daunting. If they know that people in general need to hear instructions repeated (as well as having something to look at) they kind of relax. And I know I learn better when I'm relaxed.

Posted by Brian

3:01 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Geoff (or anyone else who has an opinion), concerning the M's being so patient at the plate, don't they have the same hitting coach as last year? Which makes me wonder what's different. Yes, a different manager, but I can't help but think they probably emphasized being patient at the plate last year too (I think all teams in Spring Training emphasize patience at the plate, pitching inside, yada yada yada . . .)

Did it just take two years to sink in? Is McLaren getting through to the guys more then the hitting coach?

Posted by Stat Prof

3:03 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Walla Walla girl said

Lance, Merrill's suggestion is working for me. I was having the same problem as you (just the last day or so) where after I press Submit, there is no confirmation or anything. So yes, I have the same bug at present, but Merrill's tip saved the day. Good luck and Go M's!

Posted by Stat Prof

3:11 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Let me try again

Walla Wall girl said

Lance, Merrill's suggestion is working for me. I was having the same problem as you (just the last day or so) where after I press Submit, there is no confirmation or anything. So yes, I have the same bug at present, but Merrill's tip saved the day. Good luck and Go M's!

That suggestion works for me wtih firefox, but not IE

On IE, I've taken to copying my post, refreshing the page, and if its not there pasting and trying again.

Good old CTRL/C and CTRL/V

Posted by Mike

3:21 PM, Apr 18, 2008

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3352247

Keith Law has a take on the Angels-Mariners series and race. I tend to agree with his opinion about our offense long-term and that we need to add a bat but he's a bit hard on us to date. We are 5th out 14 in runs per game, though only 9th in OPS.

Posted by TimsHead

3:31 PM, Apr 18, 2008

BTW, my first comment with outrageous stats is what's called overstatement. Or hyperbole. Take it in that form.

That said, I agree with Mike that the term "Dickeyheads" does have a naughty appeal. I mean, really, I can't say it without laughing. And think of the T-shirt possibilities!

Posted by Mike

3:39 PM, Apr 18, 2008

TimsHead---I was too quick to sensitivity. I appreciate and enjoy hyperbole. Please understand that the sensitivity is due to too many people bringing only hyperbole to the table when trying to dismiss pretty well-researched and thought-out arguments.

Unfair to lump you in to that group. My bad.

Posted by -k

3:51 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Nat - comparing me to Cubby i really hope is in jest. He was perhaps the largest embodiment of the extremism that I've been trying to get other to avoid. I have not called anyone names on this site, ever. Also any "condescending tone" you interpret in my posts is solely your creation, not mine.

Yes, picked on Adam as i used him as a example of what i meant. I also bestowed upon him some very high compliments, and i explained why i used him as an example.

And yes, I am the voice of reason. I have issued a call for civility. I've asked that my fellow fans avoid looking at issues as black-and-white, and to learn to appreciate the middle ground. And i seek to have everyone consider their posting history as to not be entirely one-sided, whether that be negative or positive.

I'm sorry if a civil, rational, debate where opinions are justified is offensive to you. i meant no disrespect.

Posted by Mike

3:58 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I just looked at Vidro's stats, looking for an explanation for his anemic .649 OPS. His .779 OPS last year was driven mostly by a really high BABIP of .342. His ground ball to fly ball ratio was 1.7.

This year his ground ball to fly ball ratio is 1 and he has a lot more pop ups as well. Do we think the increase in fly balls is a result of trying to be more of a slugger, loss of skill or small sample size.

I should note that his '08 BABIP is .222 so bad luck could also be a big factor.

Posted by Donovan

4:03 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Nicknames have always been a part of baseball, and they can be fun (my personal fav is still Oil Can Boyd), but I have to say I hate the moniker "King Felix". I think it's because they hung it on him before he had done anything to remotely deserve it. I think you ought to have at least one Cy Young on your mantle before you call yourself King. I'd rate Felix no higher than a Crown Prince right now, but I am one of those who believe the coronation is coming.

If I were RA Dickey's agent, I'd already be working on a spokesperson pitch to the work clothing company of the same name. He's perfect: laid back, blue collar, paid his dues to get where he is. Based on Jim Caple's excellent piece on catching Dickey down in Peoria (search it out on ESPN.com if you haven't seen it), he even has good stage presence. All he needs are a few good pitching performances to get some publicity. Here's hoping that starts tonight.

Posted by -k

4:06 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Mike - I think there are 2 factors. Sample size is the obvious one, the other one is batting order. Last season he played mostly in the #2 spot. With ichiro on the holes in the infield were much larger for his ground balls to get through, and many did. it also led to many GIDP.

This year he's hitting behind wilkerson most night, who is never on base. so those holes aren't there in the infield. Also, if you watch his hitting technique, he is your classic #2 hitter, in that with a runner on he tries to hit the ball to the right side of the infield. Since there is rarely anyone on when vidro comes to the plate this year, his approach is different. I believe this is why he has hit less ground balls.

Posted by Donovan

4:06 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Here's Caple's Dickey piece. I had it bookmarked. The video is better even than the article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080318&sportCat=mlb

Posted by kingk

4:08 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Can some one give me the stat(s) that pointed to Colorado winning 21 of their last 22? I thought so...

Posted by Mike

4:16 PM, Apr 18, 2008

So are you saying we should ignore stats because players and teams get on hot/cold streaks?

Posted by i heart Morse

4:26 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Question…what happens if Dickey is spectacular tonight? Say he pitches 8 innings, giving up 2 runs or less. How will/should management respond? Do they continue to stash him away in the bullpen for long relief/mop up duty? Or do he and Batista swap roles (assuming Bedard is ready to pitch again)?

It’s different if he pitches great than, say, Baek. Baek has a track record that might suggest an extraordinary performance was, just that, out of the ordinary for him. Whereas, the “new” Dickey has been nothing but impressive since he’s been wearing the M’s uniform. Frankly, it would be surprising if he did not pitch well tonight. Any thoughts/opinions?

One way or another, tonight’s game will be fun to watch…can’t wait.

Posted by -k

4:32 PM, Apr 18, 2008

kingk - I'm not sure what you're asking here. if you mean to imply that somone said that the rockies have done that this year, i think you may have been mistaken. any reference of such is to last year.

If you are trying to make a point about some people's over-dependence on stats based analysis, then we can see your point. Yes there are those of us who put too much faith in some of SABR. I've been very critical of pythag, and have even demonstrated why the statical significance of the metric is very very low.

On the flip side, perhaps you don't see the value of many of the other metrics. ERA+ and OPS+ for instance are very good reliable creations of the SABR community. Perhaps you should have a look at them, you might learn to appreciate why the stat-driven a analysis has taken off in baseball.

Again - as i've been talking about for the past few days: look for the middle ground. there is enlightenment to be found there.

Posted by -k

4:43 PM, Apr 18, 2008

i heart morse - excellent question!

My guess would be the dickey would move to the pen. knuckleballers tend to be able to pitch more often and more more inning then conventional pitcher. That adds value to him for bullpen duty.

Plus, he is unknown, and this team's management seems to value proven commodities. That said, if he moves to the pen and continues to excel, perhaps a bastisa/dickey swap would be a consideration later in the year.

Posted by Richard Head

4:58 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I fail to see the humor in the term "Dickeyheads". I really don't find it funny at all.

Adam,
Please forgive my ignorance. What is a "Strawman"?

And what is a "Ad Hominem Attack"?

Please enlighten me Good Sir.

Posted by Nat

5:09 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k- I've noticed you have a tendency to use exaggeration and make generalizations in your comments at times, which are inflammatory - and that's what I was referring to. Generalizations are a cop out, a poor man’s substitute for specific facts. For instance: from the earlier thread today, and I quote you:

"They seem to think that the M's are garbage, and are making every effort to "prove" that point to anyone who will listen....Why is so much effort being put forth to find everything wrong with this team?"

"...you should also ask why so many are directly hate at the M's. And don't say that these people don't hate the team because they're dedicated. Dedicated has nothing to do with this. When over 90% of the 100% of posts from all these people i'm talking about are overwhelmingly negative; that's hate. Like it or not."

"Adam hasn't has one positive point to say about the M's in over a year now. That's not frustration, that's hate."


IMO, -k, this blog is a place for people to critique as well as cheer on the M's, including the FO and players. But there are times you imbue posters' comments with hate. I don't read their critiques that way. In fact, I believe people are so passionate about the M's and want them to win so much that they'll take the time to research and write as often as they do to share their beliefs and frustrations. Not to try to make fans turn on the M's but to give other fans a different or wider perspective on the picture at a certain point in time.

Describing such posters as 'people who hate the M's' is absurd, IMO. I've noticed this in earlier posts of yours as well but didn't say anything. And yes, -k, I do sometimes find your posts inflammatory and given to generalization. A voice of reason doesn't paint a broad brush to call people the equivalent of 'Mariner-haters' on a Mariner Blog.

Posted by PRchef

5:39 PM, Apr 18, 2008

I read this blog everyday, mostly to get more information on the Ms since the coverage on the papers around here is pretty minimal (compared with other local sports, or with the coverage of other places I have lived at and their local baseball team) I love that we have this as an alternative though sometimes I find that I am reading the same articles in the blog as I am in the morning paper.

Regardless, I love this blog and I am so glad to have been made aware of it. This is my first year following and it has so far been a roller coaster ride. I think it is awesome to have so many people being so passionate about the team. Regardless of their views. I for one try to stay as positive as possible because it helps my mood tremendously when I do. (you can ask my wife)

I guess what I am trying to say is thanks Geoff for the blog.

People

What we should do here is have a huge get together at one of the games and get to know each other. Maybe buy each other a beer or two, and talk a little baseball?

BTW

ADAM or anyone interested in answering

Is BABIP something that can also be used for a team or is it just an individual stat? (pardon the ignorance, I am fairly new to the stats game but am trying to learn)

Posted by Faceplant

5:46 PM, Apr 18, 2008

"And yes, I am the voice of reason. I have issued a call for civility."

And you thought telling people they they actually hate the Mariners (a team I've been following practically my entire life, and a team I'm very much emotionally invested in) was the best way to do that?

And then you laugh at how funny evan is when he calls us irrational, and extremist.

That's some voice of reason you've got there.


Anyway, now that that's out of the way, I've been really busy for a few days so I didn't have a chance to ask anyone else about this. In the first game against the A's did anyone else notice Blanton constantly going to the brim of his cap in between almost every pitch. He wasn't adjusting his cap either, he was just touching it with his pitching hand. I wish someone on the M's would have asked the ump to check his cap.

Second, I'm looking forward to this game. I know the rational outlook for Dickey is probably slightly better than league average. Servicable if you will. But, since Evan outed me as the irrational person I am, I think Dickey is going to be fantastic. Knuckleballers are a completely different kind of pitcher. They are going to have wacky looking statlines. But I saw Dickey take a no hitter into the 7th inning in Tacoma a few weeks ago against Fresno. And I can say that he won me over with that start. Granted he was facing inferior competition, but he was cruising having maybe only one or two balls hit hard off of him all night.

I also love how he throws a hard Knuckler as opposed to the more traditional knuckleball. Knuckleballs are already difficult to hit. Adding velocity to it only makes it harder.

Posted by Dawkins

5:50 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Faceplant, throwing a hard knuckler is not win-win for the Dicktator.

Throwing it harder also means much less movement -- nothing like a Wakefieldesque Knuckler.

Posted by -k

6:01 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Nat - Party, i believe you've missed the point. I've been calling for people to avoid extremism, not to avoid negativity. Critiquing is always encouraged. I have as much of a problem with those who believe everything is perfect with those who think everything is broken. I've chosen to use use the negative-only people as my example of this because they are much more plentiful.

I do, in fact, take exception to those who don't post any positive comments about this team. That's is part of my own person bias in this matter. I tried not to speak in complete generalities, and used Adam as a specific example, for which i have been venomently flamed.

I'm not about to look back of 15 months of posts to try and run stats on Adam's negativity, or anyone else's for that matter. Seriously, that's a tremendous waste of time. i read the blog, and all the comment everyday, and unlike many here, have done so since the first week of the blog. Besides, i was talking about a general perception, and i identified it as such, so general

Also, i've never implied that any post is hate. the hate that some blogger show toward this team comes over many posts over many months. Plus, i think since Evan let the cat out of the bag, we should let the use of that word go. I chose to use the word hate carefully, in an attempt to bring the issue to the forefront. Apparently it worked.

I've spent very little time today talking baseball. Hopefully this wont have to happen again. The last few days this blog has degenerated into mindless trashtalking, and it's cost us 2 very well spoken contributers in Ogal and Maui. (if you want quotes, i can post them. but if you read this blog every days then you know what i'm talking about)

It was time for a dialog to take place on the conduct of contributers. I feel like i started that dialog, and Geoff took up that dialog in todays post. Obviously, he agreed it was time.

Posted by Faceplant

6:08 PM, Apr 18, 2008

"Throwing it harder also means much less movement -- nothing like a Wakefieldesque Knuckler."

It depends. The knuckleball is such a unique pitch because it essentially relies on air flow to get movement. I saw Dickey, and I can tell you his knucklers were getting a lot of movement. Air flowing over the non spinning seams of the ball is what makes a knuckleball move.

I was also sitting behind home plate so I got a good look at it. It was pretty nasty, at least that night it was.

Posted by FuKell

6:08 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Geoff and posters,
Any updates on J.J and Bedard- Why J.J is still not reactived off the DL yet? and is Bedard going to be serious?
Any chances we going to see Clement and Vald and Mc gonna get fired? (not being sacarstic)

Posted by Faceplant

6:16 PM, Apr 18, 2008

"Any updates on J.J and Bedard- Why J.J is still not reactived off the DL yet? and is Bedard going to be serious?"

Not sure about JJ, but Will Carroll is hearing that Bedard may have a slight tear of the acetabular labrum in his hip. If that's the case, it's possible that just rehabbing it could at least get him through the season. But rehab generally isn't effective in treating this kind of injury and it usually requires surgery. Surgery could sideline Bedard for a few months. Don't worry. This labrum isn't nearly as serious as the one in your shoulder. At least as far as baseball injuries go.

Let's cross our fingers that Carroll is wrong. Because in the long run, I fear this team can't seriously compete without Eric Bedard.

Posted by Matthew Day

6:16 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Sexson starting tonight? Thought he'd be out more than one game...

Posted by Faceplant

6:17 PM, Apr 18, 2008

They can't compete without Erik Bedard either. LOL!

Posted by -k

6:25 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Faceplant - i never said that you, or anyone else, hated the team. i said that your, and others, posts were full of hate. there is a difference. To be honest, i don't appreciate much of what you post. I disagree with many of the people who do, but they try and justify their opinion and further the date. It's been my experience that you like to flame people who post anything positive about the mariners (including me, multiple times, in the past) and don't justify your opinion. Perhaps you believe the burden of proof lies in those who disagree with you. I disagree. I think all participants should justify their opinions. That said, it is only my opinion, and i have no problem with people disagreeing with it.

Adam for one (especially since i've picked on him a lot today) is one of the best debaters on this blog. he backs up his points as well as anyone who posts here. i often think he's wrong, but i appreciate his commitment to quality civil debate.

And yes i did have a laugh with Evan. He called me on my rouse. I was trying to bring this issue to the forefront, and it worked, even if Evan called me on it. I actually appreciate the fact that he was analytical enough to catch me "stirring-the-pot" as he put it. I never engaged in the name calling that he did. I chose to ignore that portion of his post.

Posted by Adam

6:48 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k - First of all, you did say we hate the Mariners. From your 10:39 pm post from the "M's back over .500" thread:

So when you ask why all the hate is directed USSM's way, you should also ask why so many are directly hate at the M's. And don't say that these people don't hate the team bcause they're dedicated. Dedication has nothing to do with this. When over 90% of the 100's of posts from all these people i'm talking about are overwhelmingly negative; that's hate. Like it or not.

Second, you say this:

Adam for one (especially since i've picked on him a lot today) is one of the best debaters on this blog. he backs up his points as well as anyone who posts here. i often think he's wrong, but i appreciate his commitment to quality civil debate.

If you really feel that way, why not show me the courtesy of accurately characterizing my arguments? Aside from the quote above, where you accuse me of hating the Mariners, you also said the following:

They seem to think that the M's are garbage, and are making every effort to "prove" that point to anyone who will listen.

Yet Adam's only comments are arguments about how it's all luck and [Silva] isn't that good.

Adam hasn't has one positive thing to say about the M's in over a year now. That's not frustration, that's hate.

Each of those statements is untrue. I would ask to back up any one of them, but I know you can't.

Listen, I'm not perfect, but I try to argue with evidence or data to back up most everything I say. It not only makes for better debate, but it's just good practice. Overgeneralizations, falsehoods and hyperbole are pretty crappy ingredients to any debate, and we shouldn't go there.

Geoff said it best: "Argue your points with him, passionately if you want, but don't lower yourselves to mudslinging. It disproves everything you set out to do."

If anyone finds themselves attacking the arguer, rather than the argument, you've made a classical mistake of logic. And if you do attack the argument, make sure you accurately characterize it, or else you've made another such mistake of logic.

It can only help the debate on this board.

Posted by Richard Head

7:09 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Adam,

Could you please answer my question now?

Thank you

Posted by Adam

7:29 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Richard -

straw man - mischaracterizing an argument to weaken it before attacking it.

ad hominem - attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.

Posted by Richard Head

7:33 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Adam,

I see

Thank you

Posted by -k

7:36 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Adam - Obviously i've ruffled your feathers. It's completely understandable. I've taken a few pot-shots in your direction today. My apology is long overdue

My purpose was to open a dialog on the black-and-white nature that many of this blog participate seem to view this team. I chose you for my example, for the reason's previously given, and because you seem to be the ying to my yang. We seem to rarely agree on anything. It made it easy for me to write.

Perhaps i have misrepresented your posts. I finally went back to find the exact "garbage" reference i remembered and it belonged to AK, not you. You did have a post following where you agreed with many of his points, but did not specifically address him calling the team garbage. Also, because i've been getting flamed much today for not having specifics, i did a bit of random sampling:

I looked at 5 random days since the the Silva signing, all during the Spring. I found 47 posts by you. 45 painted the M's in a negative light, and two were funny anecdotes not baseball related. There were 17 about silva. 17 out of 17 painted either him or the team's decision's to sign him in a negative light.

Since the issue was conduct, not baseball issues, so i didn't think all this was necessary. Hopefully you can see the reason why i have the perception that you have very little to saw that's positive about the m's. I guess all of this is moot, since i think i made it clear (or if not, i tried to) that it isn't any individual post or set of points, that is the issue. instead, it is the perception of the motivation of these posts.

One last comment: I never meant to imply that you hate the m's. I do feel that your post are "filled with hate." You've made it very clear about your feelings for Mac and the team's FO, and those feelings often come through. I understand the difference between hating the team and hating the management. Also, see the comment from Evan. Perhaps it will calm things about the whole "hate" issue.

Ultimately, I'm not ashamed that this dialog was started. The recent nature of this blog has cost us Ogal and Maui, who i'd guess you'll miss as much as i will.

Posted by evan

8:04 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k, let me see if i got this right? (which i know i do, since you confirmed it earlier, i just want to point this out to everyone else)

In order to start a dialog on conduct, you engaged in some of the conduct you were trying to stop?

Posted by evan

8:09 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Evan - Guilty as charged. And it worked. We've finally had a discussion about conduct that's needed to happen for months.

The only unfortunate side effect was Adam's feelings, but i think he can handle it

Posted by -k

8:11 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Evan - yes you are right... but why did you answer yourself as me?

Posted by evan

8:13 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k, I didn't! someone else posted that...

Posted by -k

8:15 PM, Apr 18, 2008

great... i wonder who'd do that? how annoying...

Posted by -k

8:16 PM, Apr 18, 2008

sad thing is... i wouldn't have used those words, but that was the gist of what i was going to say.

Posted by The Cops

8:45 PM, Apr 18, 2008

BUSTED!!!!!!
k is Evan
evan is k
You Are Busted Dude! You blew your own cover. This is the same thing scottM did when it was revealed he was also The Besmircher.

Posted by -k

8:52 PM, Apr 18, 2008

ahhhh... now i get why whoever posted that by evan did that. How lame! That's a fairly dishonest way to try and discredit someone.

Posted by The Cops

8:59 PM, Apr 18, 2008

Nice try , but I'm not buying it! You've been playing dual roles all day and you finally slipped up. Just admit it, you've been caught. I'm sure you had fun generating controversy and getting a rise out of everybody, but the jig is up. It makes sense now; it was no coincidence that evan was the only one here able read between the lines to see the true meaning in your post. It was a good one though, you got us!

Posted by -k

9:11 PM, Apr 18, 2008

The Cops - first off, identify yourself.
Second, after all thats gone on today, this is not all that surprising. It's a low blow and it's disappointing, but it's not surprising

Lastly, i can guarantee that I am not Evan. But since you have called me on any disingenuous nature of our conversation, i'll admit that Evan's involvement wasn't totally unchoreographed. Evan is a co-worker, and i asked him to join in. ok, we were caught...

but seriously, who wrote that post 8:09

Posted by Evan

9:14 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k, This is me glaring at you... why did you tell them? And just when it was starting to get fun for me...

Posted by The Cops

9:28 PM, Apr 18, 2008

-k and evan,
You were busted by Swung On And Belted. I don't post here everyday, but often enough. I read it everyday. For the most part, I like what you did today. But that's just me. I would imagine some people are going to be quite upset. I had to do it though. After having one pulled over on everyone, turnabout is fair play right?

Posted by -k

7:03 AM, Apr 19, 2008

Swung on and belted - yes, it is indeed.

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