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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

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December 4, 2007 3:44 PM

Huge X-Mas gifts in Nashville

Posted by Geoff Baker

IMG_1853.JPG

No, not for the Mariners. Nor the Los Angeles Angels. But the Detroit Tigers have apparently gone out and landed Marlins third baseman Miguel Cabrera and pitcher Dontrelle Willis for a package of up to six players, including outfielder Cameron Maybin and pitcher Andrew Miller. Details are still being worked out.

This development could have reprecussions on the trade front, but not, apparently, where Johan Santana is concerned. Despite wild rumors all afternoon, my Los Angeles sources tell me there was absolutely nothing to talk that the Angels were prepared to swoop in with a package for Santana at the last moment. Sure, the rumor makes some sense now that Angels' trade target Cabrera is going to Detroit.

The Angels have all those prospects they were dangling on the Cabrera front that could be shipped off to the Twins for Santana. But it's not happening, folks. Don't forget, the Angels still want to upgrade their offense and will try to get in on O's shortstop Miguel Tejada. To do that, they will need some prospects to use as trade bait, not to mention big bucks to pay Tejada. How are they supposed to pay $90 million to Torri Hunter, $150 million to Santana and then more to Tejada? They wouldn't be able to afford the cost of flying to their games. Despite the attractiveness of having three Cy young candidates in Santana, John Lackey and Kelvim Escobar going back-to-back-to-back, it's a no-go.

Word out here is, this derby is Boston's to lose. Talk in the hall is that the deal will be done within 24 hours.

As for the Mariners, lots of talk, no real action yet. Not a surprise. They've been linked to dozens of rumors. Any living, breathing arm is being looked at.

The Erik Bedard front is getting grim, with word the Dodgers have offered Matt Kemp and Jonathan Broxton to the Orioles. Broxton would be the new Baltimore closer and Kemp (who put up big numbers his rookie season) is looked upon as more of a sure thing from Baltimore's perspective than uproven Seattle commodity Adam Jones.

The M's also talked to Bob Garber, the agent for second baseman Mark Loretta. But don't expect Loretta to sign with Seattle. He's being pursued by the Rockies and -- when push comes to shove -- utility infielders would usually rather play in the NL, where they get used more often. My contacts in Colorado tell me Loretta is enthused about heading there for that very reason.

Tim Lincecum and Ray Durham/Rich Aurilia for Richie Sexson? Two words: not happening.

Yeah, the deal sounds pretty lopsided in Seattle's favor. My hunch is the M's would have to throw in another, younger bat as well. Ben Broussard is a year away from free agency and that won't get it done.

And what are the M's supposed to do with Durham or Aurilia? Neither can hit or play defense all that well any more.

If the idea is to push Jose Lopez with Durham, how are you going to do it with a guy who can't play defense or hit? Yeah, Durham helps you get rid of Sexson, but...a big of a wasted roster space in my humble opinion. I know the team wants to move him, but this smacks as a little too desperate. I wouldn't get excited about it.

As for the Giants, I'd think Lincecum is too high a price to pay in that swap. Can't see it happening. Not even if Wlad Balentien is tossed in. Start talking Adam Jones, or Jeff Clement and that could be different. But you know, we've all been down that road before and this is where talks go off the rails.

By the way, I think I found the "source" for all of those Sexson-Durham rumors lurking amongst the plantlife in one of the atriums here. Have a look below.

IMG_1862.JPG

One thing is certain: Lopez's image (no that's not him in the photo) is taking a beating at these meetings. Folks far and wide are asking me what he did to get the M's so down on him. In a nutshell, it's his attitude. They don't like it. As we wrote at season's end, Lopez has a lot to prove this coming spring (if he makes it to camp). That said, it seems premature to be giving up on him entirely. But a push from a utility veteran wouldn't hurt. Loretta makes a lot of sense. Durham does not.

What else am I hearing? That Japanese outfielder Kosume Fukodome is almost certainly going to sign with the Chicago Cubs, so forget about a Raul Ibanez deal to Chicago. Was never a realistic scenario once Fukodome got on the radar.

On the other Japanese front, with pitcher Hiroki Kuroda, the M's are in-tough with at least a half-dozen other clubs. Word out here is the M's could have him with a four-year offer. We'll see if that happens. As far as I know, it hasn't yet.

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Posted by -k

4:47 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Is anyone else worried that day 2 of the meeting is almost over and the mariners have done nothing?


Can we bring up the Please fire Bavasi topic right after the meetings, or do we have to wait till spring training?

Posted by byebyeIbanez

4:56 PM, Dec 04, 2007

good, good, good on everything. Geoff, why are you telling the Giants they need to up their asking price? LMAO stay quiet. If they want to give us Lincecum and Durham/Aurillia for Sexson then let them for crying out loud! You do that deal YESTERDAY. Durham/Aurillia can be dropped off the 40 man roster, who cares what it costs you, it won't be $14 million.

I seriously think the Tigers got fleeced by the Marlins. Mark my words Miller will be a stud, waaaay better than Willis and Maybin -- a top 3 MLB prospect as ranked by minor league baseball.com -- looks to be possibly better than Cabrera down the line AND not to mention they got Rabela and 3 other minor league pitchers. WOW. I'm not saying that Cabrera and Willis won't be good though. Cabrera can be compared to A-Rod quite favorably at the same point in their careers (to age 24 obviously) and Willis I think is still a solid pitcher but it will be interesting to see what he does this year. The Mariners need to go hard after Ben Sheets and/or Cliff Lee with Ibanez and Rob Johnson being the main bait for both. And stay away from Kuroda! Please, just stay away. And please, all of you who will start berating Bavasi some more for not doing what the Tigers did, I'm sorry but we did not have an Andrew Miller or Cameron Maybin to offer. Those guys are both top 10 in MLB prospects.

Posted by Danny Baseball

4:59 PM, Dec 04, 2007

4 years is too many for a 32 year-old pitcher. I hope Billbo resists adding a fourth year, it would be a mistake.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

5:03 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Are you kidding me? 3 gauranteed years is too many for that 32 year old bum!!

Posted by shane/olympia

5:07 PM, Dec 04, 2007

i feel that time is slipping away quickly and the mariners neeed to make some moves. i know that the mariners farm has gotton alot better but it still dosen't compete with other farms.

so we have soild farm and money is currently not a problem sounds like we can make some moves but were not doing anything right now

i think crrently the mariners best case is

rotation

sheets
felix
bautista
washburn
kuroda

with lorretta on the bench and edwin jackson as the 6th pitcher in the rotation and maybe the M's can put him in the pen along with marrow to give some freedom of using thier overstocked bullpen to make some moves

the cost of sheets seems alot less then bedard i think the diffrence between the two isn't that much

with whoever the m's would lose in this case for sheets and jackson they would have to get another Of especially if wladimir or broussard who is currently the m's 4th Of. if the cubs fail to land fukadome i wthink the mariners should go in that direction


i also think lopez's stock is so low right now that we should keep him during this offseason and i think he will do better next season with the pressure on.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

5:15 PM, Dec 04, 2007

IMO, Sheets is better than Bedard when healthy. Get Sheets in the gym and on a good training program and he'll be an absolute stud in Safeco. If we can get him for Ibanez and Rob Johnson and maybe Jeremy Reed or Baek or something then go for it! A rotation of Sheets, Hernandez, Washburn, Morrow and Rowland-Smith or Jackson with Batista moved to the pen where he belongs would by some stellar shiz-nit.

Posted by -j.

5:15 PM, Dec 04, 2007

I think Sheets is our best bet and it would probably take Clement to do it. At this point, I am not at all opposed to giving up Clement for Sheets. This team needs pitching in the worst way and Sheets, when healthy (emphasize that part), is one of the best in the game.

Every other top of the heap pitcher is going to require Jones, Clement, Morrow, etc. If we could keep Jones and add Sheets, that has to be viewed as a win.

If the Dodgers are talking about Kemp, Broxton, etc for Bedard, we might as well walk away right then. We can't compete with that and shouldn't try.

Ben Sheets in '08!

Posted by Bellevue Rob

5:22 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Only player untouchable should be Clement. Did we not learn anything when we traded Varitec to Boston. This team needs all the left handed power it can get. Give up Jones and Morrow, but we have to keep someone who has the potential to hit the ball to right field in Safeco where the ball jumps, instead of right handed power like Sexon whose blasts to left die on the track

Posted by AKMarinersFan

5:26 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Wow...the Mariners FO contineus to tumble over them selves. The negative spin they have put on Lopez prevents them from even trading him. This is laughable. How is possible that Bavasi keeps his job?

Posted by shane/olympia

5:31 PM, Dec 04, 2007

i think bedard like santanna is getting farther and farther away from the M's (like we ever had a chance)

8:12 p.m., from Steve Phillips
• The Mets offered Aaron Heilman, Carlos Gomez and Philip Humber for Erik Bedard.

espn's live blog


BEN SHEETS and Pray he stays healthy and when he is healthy and can put together a full season with the mariners defense and playing 80 games at the safe we could expect big things from sheets in 2008

could be in the cy young race

Posted by scrapiron

5:32 PM, Dec 04, 2007

The only reason they Mariners can't trade Sexson is they are still unwilling to eat a large part of his salary. Eat $9 mil of his salary and he becomes very valuable on the trade market. Just make sure to trade him to the NL so he can't hurt you. Sexson, Balentien and $9 mil would be a very attractive package to the Giants for Lincecum.

Lincecum, Morrow and Hernandez would give you a nice, young rotation that you could trot out to Safeco for many years to come and watch them grow and get better together. Let Stottlemyre work his magic on all three of those guys and you start to follow a great model of young rotations like the old A's and Braves used to and remained competetive for many years.

I'd much rather take a gamble on a young up and coming pitcher like Lincecum than take a gamble on on older injury-prone guy like Sheets. Bedard has great appeal because of his youth as well. Build a rotation for the long-haul, not a one or two year stopgap.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

5:35 PM, Dec 04, 2007

my goodness! you guys are unbelievable! AK, the Mariners never at one point said they wanted to trade Lopez. They just want to push him to get better. They just signed him to a new deal last spring, give the guy a chance to show whether he deserves it or not. For heaven's sake, his brother died! geeez

And there's no way it's going to take Jones or Morrow let alone both for Sheets. The Brewers want a catcher and a corner outfielder. Ibanez and Johjima would definitely get it done and you might be able to pick up a good prospect from them as well. Or Ibanez and Rob Johnson with Baek or Reed should be enough.

Posted by josh

5:37 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Trade Jones (Balentien is better), Clement, Baek, and young arm for Bedard.
Felix, Bedard, Batista, Washburn, Morrow is the rotation...
Ibanez, Ichiro, Balentien in the outfield
Beltre, Betancourt, Lopez, Sexson (he will have a better batting average...it can't get worse).
Johjima behind the plate.
Unfortunately the batting lineup is the same (Balentien/Guillen is a push), but our arms will be so much better. That gives us 10-15 more wins than last year and a playoff berth.

Posted by scrapiron

5:39 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Bavasi's blunders


  1. Sexson has no value because they refuse to eat a large chunk of his salary.

  2. Broussard has no value because the M's let slip that they might non-tender him and another team could get him for nothing.

  3. Lopez has no value because the M's have now told everyone in baseball he is an attitude problem.

Is it any wonder why the Mariners haven't made a deal yet?

Posted by dr

5:39 PM, Dec 04, 2007

If you want to run with the "Big Boys", you have to risk your AAA/Almost-Ready-for-Prime-Time players in trades like what went down today between Detroit and Florida. You can overanalyze each and every player and, in the end, suffer from paralysis-by-analysis.


Ben Sheets looks to be the best possibility out there for the Ms. But it will take more than Clement. And, NO, Sexson will NOT be part of the equation. Neither will Lopez or Ibanez. Bet on it. Plus, you lose Ibanez and you lose a veteran player with his 20 HRs and 100 RBI. What "proven" AAA guy do you think will replace his numbers in '08? But assuming the Brewers have any interest in dealing with the Ms, a Sheets trade is worth doing, all analytical stewing by so many fans aside. Yes, he has a documented history of injuries. Well, unless you want to start 2 or 3 rookies on the team plus accept Washburn as your #2 pitcher (followed by Batista and HoRam) in '08, you better be willing to judge each risk individually.


Brandon Morrow will not be SP-ready next spring. He'll need at least one injury-free season as a SP to begin establishing himself.....IF he can establish himself.


As I've said before, who really wants to play with/for the Mariners these days? GMs don't take us seriously. Players have no desire to play in what I'm sure they think is Cicely, Alaska (even tho' we have Ichiro, Beltre and Betancourt). The Ms' value as a Top Team gets a lot of talk but no walk...except away from the team. Notice on either ESPN or ESPN.com you just don't hear anything about the Ms. How can this be with a payroll exceeding $100 million, Ichiro and Felix? Maybe it has to do with the boys in suits. GM-to-GM, how many respect the Ms' FO?


So, those of you voting for the Ms to play their AAA "stars" may get your wish. What else is there to do that would reasonably result in the Ms actually contending into September with LAA? But you best be VERY patient because it will take at least two years for everything to mesh (Gil?), and that assumes Jones, Vlad, Clement, Johnson beat the odds and become very good everyday players. Welcome to 2008, sportsfans.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

5:43 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Geoff-Any word on the M's talking to the Giants about Lincecum?

Josh-I agree with you. The outfield would be fully armed. We would save a lot of runs.

Posted by Resin isn't Cheating

5:51 PM, Dec 04, 2007

#5 starters are meaningless in the post-season. So it makes sense to use your young cheap talent under your nose to fill the back end of the rotation.

I'm not a Morrow fan, but it makes sense to use him rather than wasting $9 million a year on a Jeff Weaver.

Posted by AKMarinersFan

5:54 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Hey DR. Cicely Alaska is a nice place. Even if it is in Washington.

The Mariners shouldn't even go to these meetings they just get laguhed at. The should concentrate on International signings that's the only thing they don't suck at.

Posted by Teej

5:55 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Wlad is better than Adam Jones? That's news to me and to everyone else who's seen the numbers, the scouting reports, etc.

Even if you think Wlad's a better hitter (he isn't; look at their PCL numbers), defense matters a lot. Jones can play anywhere in the outfield. Wlad can't.

Posted by lox

5:58 PM, Dec 04, 2007

This is ridiculous, Sexson and Lincecum should never even be named in the same sentence unless it includes Jones, Clement and $15mil. If the M's wanted Tim they should have drafted him when they had the chance. Why would SF trade one of the most promising young pitchers in the game for anything less than a premium package?


Also, if McLaren's veteran fetish didn't hurt us enough last year, the consequences are now spilling over to the offseason. Guys like Kemp and Ellsbury weren't regarded any more highly than Jones when they were all in the minors. Now, after a month or two of showing what they can do in the bigs, they're both highly coveted trade chips in deals for big name pitchers while Jones' value is suppressed because he's still "unproven".

Posted by Patrick F.

6:02 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Wow, my optimism towards the team's busy offseason is diminishing. No Santana. No Bedard. Probably no Kuroda, though wise to not overpay for back of the rotation guy. No Willis. No way in hell the Giants deal anybody for Big Richie. We're certainly not getting Lincecum. Why would Milwaukee get rid of Ben Sheets? He's their ace. I would love to have him on the Mariners, but the Brew Crew can probably get a far better deal elsewhere. No Fukudome, he would have been a nice fit. I would rather have Jose Lopez than Durham or Loretta. Why are we even talking about bringing Aurillia back? Batista is not going to the bullpen when he's the second best pitcher on the team. Basically, I'm starting to tire of the rumors, because it seems like none of the guys we want are going to end up in a Mariners uniform. Trading Ibanez means saying good bye to the guy in the lineup, who actually consistently drives in runs. Other teams are making a big splash in free agency, and then there's the Mariners watching it all happen.

Is Cliff Lee still available? I'm just waiting to hear what underwhelming move Bavasi makes. Are we going to leave the Winter Meetings with nothing? At least make a sales pitch to Freddy Garcia.

Posted by Lance

6:03 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Shane, why on earth is the time slipping away quickly? Is the world going to end tomorrow? Are you on life support? Even if no Mariners deal happens during these meetings, it's still four months until Opening Day.
.
Good grief. Some of you must be on the verge of a coronary, or massive stroke.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

6:21 PM, Dec 04, 2007

WOW. I didn't know there was a rule that mandated in order for a team to compete in MLB they had to do SOMETHING at the Winter Meetings. Geez, you would think from reading all of your whining and complaining that baseball's offseason ended tomorrow. Get a freaking grip on yourselves! You make Mariners fans look bad.

Posted by shane/olympia

6:31 PM, Dec 04, 2007

i mean that the mariners are falling out of top tier pitchers races. bedard and santanna who every one was talking about last week seemed to out of the m's grasp


also lincecum went i believe 5 over all when we got marrow with the 12 pick if i remember right or maybe i flipped them around

you cannot say wladmir and guillen are a push at the plate since one ran the show in the big leagues last year and one was the second best outfielder on his team in AAA last year, Right a push

Posted by ScottM

6:44 PM, Dec 04, 2007

This is like second-guessing military maneuvers. We don't have the data to know what the options are. For example, why did we dump Guillen? Was it his behind the scenes attitude, or a recognition that the money the M's would save is better spent on starting pitching?

Unfortunately, the only thing we can do from our armchairs, is to wait for Bavasi to do his thing and, then, applaud or boo. There's always plenty of both. The best GMs at this game usually go for the prizes who are just under the radar screen, which is why Santana--in the BoTox/Damnkees sweepstakes is just out of reach.

It's hotseat time for BB!!

Posted by lox

6:46 PM, Dec 04, 2007

You got it backwards. M's picked Morrow 5th and Lincecum went 11 or 12. If you really want to get depressed, consider that we could have had both Maybin and Andrew Miller, the 2 main pieces in the Cabrera/Willis deal when we ended up picking Clement and Morrow...

Posted by Teej

6:49 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Lincecum and Miller required signing bonuses that went above the Selig-approved slot figures. The Mariners don't want to be on the commish's bad side, whereas teams like S.F. and Detroit have no problem doing it.

Posted by lox

6:53 PM, Dec 04, 2007

I may be wrong, but I don't think that was the case with Lincecum, with Miller yeah...

Posted by Teej

6:59 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Lincecum was drafted two times before 2006 and didn't sign either time because he wanted a $2 million signing bonus. Finally, in 2006, the Giants gave it to him. At that point, it was the most money the Giants had ever given to a draft pick.

It wasn't quite as much money as Miller demanded, but it was still above slot, and the Mariners front office doesn't like to draft those types of players.

Posted by Teej

7:07 PM, Dec 04, 2007

OK, the more I look around, I could be wrong. Lincecum's signing bonus was above slot, but just barely, and that was at the No. 10 spot. So I'm not really sure.

Posted by DrNaka

7:10 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Kuroda will not sign during Winter Meeting.
Report from Sanspo is:

'Kuroda will make a trip to US next week to visit the cities he has interest. Seattle, LA and Phoenix.'

So M's, Dogers or D'Backs will land him.
Decision will be mid to end of Dec.

Posted by Patrick F.

7:19 PM, Dec 04, 2007

byebyeIbanez: Give me a reason to be optimistic. This offseason looks a lot like the last one. A lot of big names are being tossed around, none of which are being linked to the Mariners. When you start hearing names like Rich Aurilia and Ray Durham emerge, you're team is obviously looking in all the wrong places.

ESPN is reporting that the Mariners have the inside track on Kuroda, because they have offered him a four year 45 million dollar contract.

Posted by mike56

7:30 PM, Dec 04, 2007

No byebye you are the one who makes mariner's fans look bad! With your racial slurs and incorrect facts i.e. Ibanez hitting .250 w risp when it was .329! However, one thing is true....no team is unbeatable!! Sometimes the right moves are wrong and vice versa. That is the beauty of baseball. Oh and by the way I would keep Richie. Last season was not the norm for him, and he is a free agent next year. Why would we eat 9 million?? Wouldn't you rather use that towards a sp? Let's not forget that this club won 88 games last year, and is on the verge of great things for years to come. We need to stay positive and EXPECT good things to happen! Not just to our team but in our everyday life!!

Posted by ricofoy

7:40 PM, Dec 04, 2007

I hope that's true about Kuroda. It's gives Bavasi a chance to pull back that contract offer before we're saddled with the pitcher's equivalent of the Sexson contract.I wish Bavasi would pack his suitcase and head on home. He's going to end up doing more harm than good. Throw this year away because there is no way in hell the M's come within 10 games of a playoff spot. Find out which kids can play while waiting for Sexson, Vidro and Ibanez's contracts to come off the books. Then fire the whole front office, hire some competent replacements and reload in 09.

Posted by rb

8:35 PM, Dec 04, 2007

re: draft bonus slot. It should be noted that the last two American League WS teams (Detroit and Bos) as well as the Yankees, are three of the teams that blatantly ignore Selig's "mandate" not to pay draft picks above slot. These are teams that see a free competitive advantage and utilize it, whereas the M's refuse to make waves and are content to let the rich get richer through the draft. This is by far the thing that makes me the most upset about our front office, even more so than the bad trades and signings. Until this recommendation is actually a rule, any team that follows it is just moronic. Teams complain about the high prices for free agent pitching, yet refuse to pay a great prospect an extra couple hundred thousand come draft day. Completely inexcusable.

This should also help to explain the idiotic decision to throw away a draft pick by not offering arb to Guillen. If the M's don't care about getting the best players in the draft and are content to let them all get gobbled up by the Red Sox, Yankees, and Tigers, they probably don't care much about losing draft picks either.

Posted by rb

9:00 PM, Dec 04, 2007

On a more positive note, Geoff, great video on the hotel! That place looks downright crazy. I'm now officially kicking myself that I decided not to attend the meetings at the last minute, I bet people are totally going crazy being in that fake-outdoor setting for multiple days! Hopefully this leads to some goofy trades not involving the M's.

Posted by mitch

9:13 PM, Dec 04, 2007

Wasnt Plan B named after Bavasi?

Posted by dr

9:55 PM, Dec 04, 2007

"whining and complaining" - well, byebiasedibanez, we've all endured YOUR whining and complaining about the rest of the posting folks expressing their opinions, so deal with it or go back to your rock. Of course, YOU know best. Why your pearls of wisdom tell us the Ms are better off with players who come cheap. And, by all means, let's get rid of Ibanez. Now, byebiased, just who do you plan on inserting into the lineup in '08 who you just KNOW will provide us with 20 HRs and 100 RBI? AJ? Well, he'll probably be in right field. Another guess or do you just cherish being obnoxious without any purpose?

And, lest we all forget, byebiased is the racist who wants no Japanese players on the Ms' team 'cuz, well, they don't speak "english" [sic] well enough for our little boy to understand the game. This coming from someone who barely writes English well enough to pass a sophomore writing class. Isn't it fun, gang, posting with a 12 year old?

Keep spewing ignorance and arrogance, byebiased. Keep attacking decent postings. The value of your words falls faster than Sexson's batting average.

Posted by Lance

10:28 PM, Dec 04, 2007

"It wasn't quite as much money as Miller demanded, but it was still above slot, and the Mariners front office doesn't like to draft those types of players." ---Teej
.
No? Ever heard of Matt Tuiasosopo, or Ryan Anderson?

Posted by Teej

1:03 AM, Dec 05, 2007

I didn't say they never have. There are always exceptions. Ryan Anderson was considered a can't-miss, and Tui was a hometown boy, which we know the M's love. Plus the team had to give Tui an incentive not to play football.

Generally, the M's aren't a team that's going to give Rick Porcello 3.5 million or give a big-league contract to Josh Beckett.

Posted by byebyeIbanez

10:58 AM, Dec 05, 2007

dr -- i'd insert either Wladimir Balentien or Mike Morse or combo of both and get 30 and a buck 20! Remember through July we only had 7 for 60, Ibanez is garbage.

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