Morrow more important than Jones? I couldn't disagree more. Morrow has absolutely no record as a professional starting pitcher. He's yet to show a second pitch or command of his fastball. Jones, meanwhile, is rightfully considered by most scouts to be one of the top young talents in the game. After all, Jones flashed plus skills in the OF (after only two years as an OF), and had an almost-1.000 OPS while hitting Tacoma. As a 21 year-old!!

Could Morrow have a higher ceiling? Perhaps. But Jones has a pretty darn high ceiling himself, and he's much more of a sure thing than Morrow is at this point.

Plus, the way that the Mariners are destroying Morrow's development and ignoring the fact that he needs work in the minors, there's absolutely no guarantee that Morrow will ever be a productive pitcher.

The solution is simple: keep Jones, pass on Bedard, let Morrow pitch in the minors, and get ready for 2009.

Of course, we have the most incompetent front office in the game, so that's crazy talk...

If Jones leaves where does that leave this offense? He's certainly not a guaranteed thing but with no Guillen and the reality of another year of Sexson this offense needs Jones more than the pitching staff needs Morrow.

Agreed, Adam. Development-wise, Adam Jones and Brandon Morrow couldn't be more far apart. Not to mention that starting pitcher attrition at his age is so high. Morrow had a grand total of one major league quality pitch last year, and he couldn't even locate that one pitch. I'm sure he's improved in Venezuela, but there's no way he's a serviceable 5th starter for the Mariners this year.

"Keeping Morrow, I feel, is far more important to this team than holding on to Adam Jones."

Why? Because he's a pitcher? The Mariners have depth in minor league pitching; there are more promising arms than Morrow in the minors. Aside from Balentien and Jones, they have NONE in talented outfielders.

I would choose Adam Jones 10 times out of 10. And I wouldn't even think twice. I think you're nuts.

Keeping Morrow, I feel, is far more important to this team than holding on to Adam Jones.

I would agree with this opinion if I felt Morrow was a front line starter. Moreover, I see Morrow as a #3 starter at best, and that's if his splitter develops. So Morrow's value is at an all-time high right now.

I believe Adam Jones as an everyday 25 home run hitter, with strong arm, below average accuracy, speed, range, is superior to a Morrow. I generally favor the all-star position player over a middle-line starter every time.

It's no secret Baltimore covets Jones. I really don't like Bedard, who reminds me of Washburn armed with a curveball.

Opening day rotation:

Felix Hernandez

Jarrod Washburn

The Blood Avenger

Carlos Silva

Houdini Ramirez

Same line-up card from last year. Same bullpen. Same Bavasi.

"Keeping Morrow, I feel, is far more important to this team than holding on to Adam Jones."

You must be saying that only because we already have a centerfielder for quite a few more seasons in Ichiro. Otherwise, I can't see where you're coming from with that belief.

Geoff does a great job.

But I can't get over how wrong that is.

Adam Jones and Carlos Triunfel should be the only untouchable players in the minor leagues.

I would trade Morrow, Clement and three or four other prospects if it meant keeping those two.

It could be a typo, but I don't think Aumont's going to be close in '09 if he's yet to make his debut. That would be one hell of a rush job on the M's part, and an equally impressive response on his end. I'd say '10 at the absolute earliest, more likely '11 or '12.

Tillman, on the other hand, if (big if) he keeps going like he did the final two months of this season, then there's a slim possibility that he could pull it off by the middle or end of '09. Hmm...

geoff,

thanks for hopping online and feeding us. :)

geoff, maybe i have missed it along the way, but i have yet to hear how you believe the m's plan to fill the vacancy left by guillen/jones if jones is dealt. is this a balentin? free agent? what do you think?

also, are there any chances that this becomes a megadeal and roberts and lopez get included?

btw i agree. this new blog comment format sucks.

Only untouchable should be Clement. Show me any right hand hitter who can consistently hit HR to left field at Safeco. There aren't any. We need left handed power, and Clement is the only one I have seen.

Who will win more games for the Ms if kept? Marrow or Jones?

MARROW! keep him. There is a big differense between .333 30 110 (Jones' potential) and 18 Ws (Marrow's potential). One OF doesn't win games, one pitcher does.

That is, if this deal could get done. We'll just havto see...im skeptical.

and about our young pitchers...
look how fast Felix came up, these guys could do it aswell. Aumont has a lot of work to do, he didnt have 4 years of college like Marrow, but if Marrow gets the 5th spot it wouldn't be that hard to imagine aumont in the same role as Marrow last year. One electric pitch is all it takes, Filipe has one. Also White is terring it up in venezuala, better than Smith and Marrow so he is also in the running along with Baek and Ramirez.

it's MORROW.. not MARROW.. you're in love with a guy whose name you can't spell.

w/e, thanks for the help.

He is a sexy man.

"Who will win more games for the Ms if kept? Morrow or Jones? MORROW!"

I can't think of anything more wrong.

Jones would be a helluva lot of fun to watch, but don't any of you numbnuts get it? After watching last season, can you honestly say keeping promising pitching around isn't important? We crumbled late in the season because of the LACK of good pitching. What the hell!!! Look, whether you agree with what the M's did with Morrow's development or not isn't the point, he CAN GET OUTS in the MAJOR LEAGUE. No other of those "promising" players in the minors have come close to doing that yet. You don't ship out a guy like that as a footnote. Let the dumbasses in other clubs OOH and AHH at Adam Jones for now, but those kinds of players are MUCH more easily replaced. We have guys in the minors that should do as well or better than Jones. Who knows? Maybe he will become a superstar, but there's no way to tell that now. Keep Morrow, and get Bedard and we got premium pitching that will hold throughout the whole season.

You idiots talk about Geoff being crazy, but I just don't get it... this guy is posting blogs on his VACATION for crying out loud! And frankly, I think he has just a bit more insight into this stuff than you dipsticks sitting around drinking beer and watching the computer screen. Have a little bit of respect when you write, at the very least.

I just posted a huge thing about why I think it's better to keep Morrow than Jones if we get Bedard. But basically, Bedard+Felix+Morrow (in a couple years if all goes well)+Washburn+Batista = a rotation that can compete for something more than a .500 season. There's a lot of what if's, but Morrow was impressive in his first year. If he can continue to get better and get into a solid #2 type pitcher, we'd be set.

If we keep Jones, we've got Jones in the outfield and a rotation of Felix/Morrow etc. I'll take Bedard, if we can get it. And if we can keep Morrow? Later Adam. Have fun and good luck, you're going to be a lot of fun to watch some day.

"For now, at least, he (Bavasi)seems to be doing some tough negotiating."

Geoff, He is doing some tough negotiating when we come in second and the rest of the time he gets taken. When did his touch negotiating pay off big?

I hope Morrow stays. I think we can play 500 ball for a year if we get rid of Richie and we will get better in 2009.
.
byebyeRichie

Geoff,
Great comment about choosing Morrow over Jones. I completely agree.
If this team is ever going to win, it's going to be with pitching. Morrow has the potential, particularly if he develops a splitter or good changeup, to become a 16- to 20-game winner in Seattle.
A guy who can consistently win 15 to 20 games for a team is more valuable to his team than a guy who hits .300 with 30 homers. Ken Griffey Jr., for all his greatness, didn't get Seattle to the World Series. What makes people think Jones will? It takes great pitchers (and more than one) to put a team in serious contention.
Safeco Field is a pitcher's park. We can win with great pitching, but we will never attract big-time sluggers to Seattle, nor should we try. If we can put together a great pitching staff, and then build a high-average, disciplined offense, we can win a World Series.
Adam Jones could hit .400 and 80 homers, and if run out a bunch of .500 pitchers like we have now, we won't sniff a Series. Just ask St. Louis when McGwire was hitting bomb after bomb. Just ask San Francisco, when Barry Bonds was juicing balls into the bay. Both teams sucked, even though they had a major power hitter in the middle of the lineup.

Don't hold back Deron. Tell us how you really feel. I do agree with your thoughts.

Why would it matter Jones is more important than Morrow or not? Unless O's is as stupid as Bavasi, you actually believe they would accept a package without both? GOOD LUCK. The losers of Sanata trade would turn focus on Bedard. Bavasi has shown so far he has no ability of evaulating pitching talents and dumb in negotiating.

This format really sucks! I don't know when I am going to do the magic thing and get a message sent.
I would also like to remind people that if Jones replaces Guillen, he will have to have a helluva a year. Can he? its certainly possible, but with Guillen we still were a long way behind the Angels. We need a #1 pitcher to stop those losing streaks. Losing streaks kill teams and we had a bunch last year. That said I say give up Jones for Bedard. Further I say give up Morrow and Jones for Johan Santana--but the important thing is to remember that the Ms sure don't need a long reliever--their critical need is a top of the rotation, losing streak stopping pitcher. Folks just don't realize that everyday players don't stop losing streaks--in fact losing streaks have a negative effect on everyday players which effects their play. Get a Number one pitcher then fill the hole with either Ballentein or a FA. I really believe W. has as much upside as Jones.

Oh and yeah, get off Geoff's case!

The right solution here is simple. The M's need to trade for Bedard so that they can compete for the division title next year, not in 2010. The winning teams in baseball sell the most tickets and merchandise. They can then use the profits to keep and sign talented players in the future. Losing teams lose fans and then have money problems and can't afford good players.

Bedard,Hernandez,Silva,Batista & Washburn would be one of the best rotations in baseball. They would be very tough pitching in Safeco field. Pitching wins championships...period!

I think the M's are vastly improved by just signing Silva and a new pitching coach in Stottlemeyer. Morrow and Jones are young talent. Let them develop. You're too impatient. If you want to make a trade, trade Bavasi.

Exactly Chris.
Pitching has always won championships. If people get caught up in projecting Jones into some mega-star, and think we're somehow going to win anything with the Silvas of the world as our daily pitching offering, they are absolutely fooling themselves.
We need to develop a winning tradition around our pitching, just like Atlanta did through the 90s. They only got one World Series title out of the deal, but that's one more than Seattle has, and Atlanta has been to a lot more postseasons than we have, which is the whole point.
We have the right ballpark, we have a good TV contract, we have a huge fan-base in the Northwest; there is NO reason that we can't develop something long-lasting and strong here.
I'm not sure Bavasi is the brain to do it, but I'm willing to give him another year or two if he can bring in someone like Bedard to complement Felix.

Greg,
I understand your point, but I've been waiting for 25 years. I'm tired of waiting. Fans that are new to the M's may look at Jones and not want to give him up, but in the last two decades I've watched 15 guys people raved about come and go, and this city has nothing to show for it. Two of those guys, Griffey and ARod, have come and gone, and both will end up in the Hall of Fame. But we still have nothing.
If we're going to win, it's going to be with pitching. It's that simple. Why sit around for another four or five years waiting for these guys to develop, when, at least half the time, they will jump ship for bigger money in the prime of their careers?
We need to bring in proven pitching talent now, compete now and build a tradition of our own.

Greg,

Patience(and Clay Bennett) is why the Sonics are going to be in another city very soon. I'm not saying that prospects are not important. But I don't think to fans pay the extreme ticket prices in order to see prospects. Fans who are into prospects can venture down to Tacoma or up to Everett and "see the future of baseball playing today". If the M's start a nice run of postseason apperances they will increase their revenue and won't need to rely on as many prospects anyway. The Braves,Yankee's,Redsox etc. don't seem to be too concerned with prospects and seem to be very successful in spite of it!!!!!

I want to be clear about one thing when it comes to prospects: I like Jones and I like Morrow, but we are not good enough to just continue the current trend of nursing along young players and then watching them walk away as they are about to become stars.
We're going to face that with Felix in the coming years, and we would certainly face that with Jones and Morrow just about the time they're ready to really make an impact in the big leagues.
My point is that this team needs become a realistic winner FIRST, then worry about retaining its young players. Why in the world would any young star want to stay in Seattle given our yo-yo movement in the standings over the last few years? We may have to lose someone like Jones to bring in someone like Bedard, but that's our best chance of really, truly winning in the next two years, which will then help keep pitchers like Felix and make other top free agents want to come here.

Get Bedard. Plain and simple.

"Have a little bit of respect when you write, at the very least." --- Deron

You should take your own advice. Make your points, but the name calling isn't needed or wanted. Either cut it out or go away.

"Make your points, but the name calling isn't needed or wanted. Either cut it out or go away." -- Lance

--I agree with Lance. Any, moving onward, right now I am liking the Silva signing. At the very least, we have eliminated a pitcher pitching against us that has went 5 and 1. As for the keep or trade Jones/Morrow for Bedard, I tend to agree with letting go of Jones to get a TOR guy. Hopefully keep Morrow as well, yes, he may not cut it as a SP, but if that doesn't work, he has electric stuff to be the bridge to JJ. Pitching wins championships, and that is what we need. It'll be tough to see Jones go if he does, but chances are, he will be replaced by another up and coming outfielder (I don't know who, but up and coming outfielders seem to be a dime a dozen in MLB) in the future.

Merry Christmas to all of you I've agreed with, disagreed with, insulted, been insulted by, think you're crazy, and who think I'm crazy.

Whatever our disagreements here, it's great to have a community of dedicated baseball fans. We may have different ideas of how to get there, but we all want the Mariners to get better and go to the Series. Thanks to Geoff for giving us this forum.

Here's hoping Santa gives us a little more patience in posting, so there isn't as much name-calling, and lots of excellent pitching.

Have a great holiday, all.

Didn't we trade for some other team's can't miss minor league outfielder by the name of Jeremy Reed? Olivo- wasn't he considered a can't miss as well? Those two are only good for taking up space on a triple AAA bus somewhere.

In case some of you miss my previous point- Jones and Morrow seem to be the next great all-stars, but in reality- Bedard is a proven all-star so we need to pull that trigger now! By the way, why are we not offering the Chief a minor-league deal? That is a high potential return on a low-risk deal. Freddy did say that he would like to possibly return some day. Here is an outstanding rotation:

Bedard, Hernandez, Silva, Batista, Garcia/Washburn

Ok, so everyone here wants to go out and get Bedard. But the plain truth is, even with him the Angels are still better than the M's. The Angels right now are the clearly better team, so there is little hope of winning the division. The wild card is also out with either NY or Boston winning that. So with Bedard clearly stating that he won't sign a new contract with anyone until free agency which is two years away and then he'd leave for the big money in the big markets. So for sending a few of our best prospects for Bedard we become better but only for the short term, and in that short term we have a small chance of getting to the playoffs. All this on top of Bedard having a history with arm injuries and our offense AND defense taking a pretty good hit from this deal. I don't buy it.

Agreed Houston. The prospects in the Garcia deal were highly regarded. Mike Morse was projected to be a star with 1HR/19ABs as a short-stop. Miguel Olivo projected to be a star hitter with nearly a .500 slugging with the Chisox. Jeremy Reed once was the Minor League Player of the Year.

Have you heard anything about Garcia's progress?

Edit: Mike Morse was putting up 1HR/19ABs in AA.

Max,

Guess what, the Sox or Yanks are always gonna win the wildcard and the Angels are always gonna be good. Im tired of waiting around for our prospects to save us, we need starting pitching right now. Bedard is on the trade market. You might not want to go for the quick fix, but as Geoff illustrated in his post, it's way more than just a quick fix. We can have a great rotation that will win games for us as well as develop our prospects. Do you think the owner will commit to rebuilding after the money theyve been spending? yeah right...no way. No one is interested in waiting, not onwership, Bavasi, players, and coaches. We are commited to paying not waiting. The idea of quiting because we have no chance isnt something Im gonna buy into.

I watched Jones all year in the minors in 06, Keep Morrow!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Tomas,

What did you see with Jones that didn't impress you? Was it his defense or his offense? What aspect about it did you think was unimpressive?

Man, this format stinks to high heaven. The people I'm responding to are beneath, not above; we have to click through twice to read Geoff's whole post, plus wait for the comments to load--which we might not necessarily be interested in reading at that time; it copies other sites' formats rather than innovating or developing its own prior uniqueness; it seems a big step back. Where/What are the great "new features" we waited for, Geoff? (O, good, just got the ol' "content submission error/text was wrong" message. That's nice...)

I would suggest to those who've lost posts to copy their posts before they click "submit." I used to do that with the old format, and I've continued to do it with this one. Saves a lot of aggravation...

Oregongal, I very much doubt you've ever insulted anyone. Thanks, and I second your wishes for everyone to have a Merry Christmas. I wish everyone all the best.

I agree with those who think Morrow is more valuable than Jones, and the argument about great starting pitching being more rare and valuable than great everyday players.

I would be loathe to trade them both for only two years of Bedard, yet equally loathe to give up on '08 just because the Angels, Sox, Tigers, and Indians are so good.

Good pitching trumps good hitting 80-90% of the time, and two years of Bedard plus Felix et. al. puts us right up there with the best, and would hopefully increase the chance he might re-sign with us.

I know folks think Santana doesn't want to pitch out West, but I still have hope that the presence of Silva (best friend/countryman) and Hernandez (fellow countryman) could be a strong counter-argument against added travel time for signing here.

A long-term commitment from a front-line number 1 would obviously be the best-case scenario for losing Clement, Morrow, and Jones. (And I would add that the latter two are more than prospects now, with Morrow having spent an entire year in Seattle and Jones having gotten his feet wet twice.)

HO HO HO! Santa's on his way!

Is it just me or is it that some of you seem to be missing the point.

First off, spot on Geoff for the update. That's really noble of you to take some time out of your vacation to give us the latest information.

He brings up the exact point I've been screaming about all offseason. Bedard wants to test free agency after his contract expires. He wants the big pay day. All the players do. And he'll get it. To the highest bidder. And you all know what that means. New York or Boston. I know nothing is a given in life, but we're talking baseball here. Time and time again we have tried to offer out the big contracts to bring in not only big name players, but mainly pitchers. Do the names, Jason Schmidt, Carl Pavano, and Barry Zito ring a bell. All of our offers were just as good as the next teams. And where did they end up? Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York. The fact is, nobody likes to play in Seattle. It's so far away. So why give up two diamond prospects for only 2 years of service for a starting pitcher that has had a history of nagging injuries and that wants to bolt after his contract is up? That means, the majority of you think that just by the addition alone of Bedard, we'll have what it takes to make the playoffs and possibly win a World Series, all in two years!?! You all are MAD!! I shouldn't say all, but some. And what if your wrong?

Bavasi has really impressed me this offseason. He knew what it would take to bring in Carlos Silva. While not the most glamorous name in baseball, he was the top pitcher available. And he had to overpay big time just to get him here. I would've done the same. It prevents us from getting in a bidding war, with say a team like Kansas City. Reminds me a lot of another 16 game winner we signed last year named Batista. Just a completely different pitching style. And he's playing in a pitcher's park. And the last time I looked, our defense wasn't too shabby either.

We don't know what Adam Jones and Brandon Morrow's outcome will be. As to whether or not they become superstars or not. But Bavasi does know that the ceiling on both of these players is very high. He knows that their value might be at his highest right now. He knows that we own the rights to both of these players WAYYYY beyond two years. And he knows what the premium is on the going rate for top starting pitching in the league right now. And to take a gamble on a top of the line pitcher like Erik Bedard for only two measily seasons, with a high possibility of leaving too, not the highest bidder, but better location, seems ludicrous!! What if Erik gets injured? What if it's his first year here, then he has a break out season on the final year of his contract? Well you can pretty much say bye bye to Bedard. He'll be in pinstripes before Christmas '09.

Bavasi is merely keeping in tact the forumla for winning and keeping the a healthy rotation of youngsters and the best people we can get off the market flowing through our beloved city. That's not a small feat. You ask any other GM to come to Seattle and try to entice a player up here, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing. Good luck. Pat Gillick had to empty our entire farm system to bring in top quality names, and that hurt us badly. We're still dealing with that.

So when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of keeping Morrow over Jones, there's no question. You keep both.

You let Jones go and get Bedard, you take a chance on making a major run at the playoffs and hopefully a shot at the World Series before Erik's contract is up. You let Morrow go, and you've lost two pitchers in 2 years and your rotation is left with Hernandez and Silva and a bunch of young unproven arms. Washburn and Batista's contracts will be up, and we're worse off than where we started. And then most of the M's fans would really be calling for his head.

Now this little picture I painted for you isn't for certain by no means. But if you let our starting pitching go, that's an ugly possibility that could be staring at us, right in the face.

I say keep Morrow and Adam. And try and hammer out a new deal with the O's.

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas.

Ben,

You said it, we had to overpay for Silva. We had to overpay for Sexson and Beltre a few years ago. We even had to overpay to get Ichiro to stay (allthough I think he diserves the money). I wouldn't mind keeping Morrow and Jones but as I've said on this blog before, when I see a #1 pitcher on the market I want it to get done. If we get Bedard (which I don't think will happen), we will have two years to overpay him, and I think there's a good chance he'sign an extention. Do you think with his injured past he would pass up 23/4or5 to play in the weakest division? I would do it...no team would match that either. We didn't let Ichiro go, we wont let Bedard go.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

YO Chuck,

I always speak my mind. Look for me on the forums bashing heads left and right.... what better way to do it than cyberspace? Besides, if I can't be drinking and acting like an idiot on these blogs, who can? Tee hee hee....

Geoff is da man... I love this blog and I've never read a sportswriter with his knack to be TRULY rational and objective and have such an AMAZING ability to write... and write .,. and WRITE without getting boring. Don't listen to the rest of these idiots put ya down Geoff. I disagree with you from time to time but I'd never be so rude. Keep up the good work!

First of all it's not about overpaying for Bedard to keep him. And $23 million for 4 or 5 years is chump change. You actually think Bedard would settle for that when Carlos Silva just got a 4 year $48 million dollar contract? AND, they've been in the league the same amount of years practically!?! Your nutzoid! Try 6 or 7 years at around $80 to $100 million. Bedard is going to be the top free agent on the market. And we all know what happens when there is available pitching on the market. Look what happened to Carlos Silva and Hiroki Kuroda(Whooooooooooo????) No if Erik Bedard comes to Seattle, he'll definitely make sure it's not for very long. And then you will have lost not only his services, but the prospects you traded to get him. Which makes us off worse than we already are currently right now. The only way that you make the trade is if your allowed a window of opportunity to discuss a long term deal before the trade. If that doesn't happen, then no deal.

By the way, Geoff, I want to echo everyone's thanks for commenting on your holiday: Thanks!

And, , sorry, but I listened to your Bavasi comments, and he said "back end of the bullpen, 7th or 8th inning," not "long man."

A good setup man is pretty hard to come by, but not as hard as a "TOR" starter. I really can't see why they'd insist on having Morrow in the BP again when supposedly the plan is to have him start. I know they can't count on Lowe, yet, but if Green and White (the Sean Twins) are ready to step up (and it seems, from a comment I read a while ago, that Green's a fireballer, not the junkballer I'd assumed he was, so he's a good candidate if Lowe can't get right), why not have Morrow start in the minors if they can keep him and get Bedard or Santana?

So many people moaned about that last year...

Dickey doesn't seem to be in the plans there anywhere from B's comments on not having depth.

Spring training is going to be interesting. It's been an interesting offseason so far. The best (?) is yet to come.

PS--Any chance of getting these geniuses to fix the submission bugs??? That damn captcha thing seems to work about once of three tries. That ain't good enough.

Ben: Your love affair with Boovasi has clouded your reasoning. In one post you mention that it was pure genius to pay $48 mil for Silva for 4 years. In the opinion of many, it was dumb to set a high rate for someone that is an average pitcher. Then you say that the same genius that overpaid for Silva will not overpay for Bedard when he becomes a free agent. You indicate that Boovasi has a grand scheme. My take is that Boovasi is to dumb to think of what he is going to do today, much less in the next few years. He has been used and abused by players and GMs for years. Why should the future be different? Others on this blog have pointed out that so called "pitchers of the future," and minor league players of the year for the Mariners have gone bust. I won't mention names as you simply need only go back and read the blog. Who is to say that Jones will not be a bust. But Bedard is "more" of a sure thing then Jones. Either could be injured for the season or career, but Bedard has a bigger upside because he has proven he could win in the toughest division in the American league.

PPS--what's the deal with having a submission confirmation page with no link back to the comments? Or with having to link through in the first place? Or with having a front page without Geoff's full comment so I have to link twice, essentially, to read the page I initially tried to go to? If they're trying to save space, why not have the full comment and links to past comments (rather than the first paragraph of each), as well as links to reader comments?
Shees... It seems as though "user friendly" was not a consideration at any point in the planning of this monstrosity. The point of an "upgrade" is improvement, not . Am I not right? These are not bugs, Geoff, which I am willing to be patient with. These are nothing less than stupid design flaws, ground-up, wholesale stupidity. These guys are getting paid a lot of money to fail completely to take into account the most important element of the equation: The User.

Inexcusable. Let's eat their children!

(OK, I'm joking about that last thing...) (O, and I'll leave an update on how many tries I have to make to submit this. The last comment I made was three times; the one before it was twice. If nothing further follows, then this will have miraculously posted the first time. And no, don't tell me I can't read that silly "captcha" thing.)

OK, that's one failure. If no further comments follow, this will have posted after two tries. (Why does this dang thing like "q" so much????)

Trade Jones and Morrow for Bedard or Santana, but hang on to Jeff Clement, he's the kind of prospect you don't trade.

Merry Christmas! I'm going to the Blazer game tonight, Go Blazers!

Ben,

I ment 23mil a year for 4 or 5 years...jeez.

For all this noise surrounding Morrow, it might be Tillman who is the gem of the system (and who knows on Aumont). I'd give up Morrow for Bedard any day. I think there's one or two pitchers coming up over the next few years to warrant it.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Do not expect any trades or miracles to appear. I will venture to say that the team will play different as McL has his team of coaches and has a pretty young team. The rent-a-player era almost over (we still have Vidro)and the rounding out of the roster with our draftees about to begin. Are we locked into second place in the AL West? Maybe. But one Vlad injury and we are in the drivers seat! We are getting younger and the LAAAAAA's are getting older. I would watch out for Texas as the A-Rod money comes off their books and they can rebuild again. Of course Oakland should be healthy and playing over their heads again. We need the SP's to eat some innings. How I miss Jaime's 200 per year! If we can stay in the game for 7 innings, then we should be in a great position to win! Jose Lopez needs to play inspired. Yuni needs to stay focused. Richie needs to hit my weight. All the other parts will be discussed later. See you at Fan Fest!

My apologies Zach. I couldn't understand your figuring there for a second.

I'm just really glad the way things are going and could care less about what some fans have to say about my opinions.

But keep up the good work Geoff. I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly in this article. You can't make everyone see the light of day. I give mad props to Mr. B in the front office. Keep up the good work also!

Happy New Years!

Theres a good article about the Ms in the PI this morning. I agree with it entirely. The Ms are mediocre.

Ordinarily, I'd say "consider the source", but even a blind commie can find a nut once in awhile. The M's are indeed mediocre, because the front office demands mediocrity. Nothing more, nothing less. When was the last time you head Lincoln, Armstrong, Bavasi, or the absentee owner talk about excellence or winning traditions?

Someone mentioned earlier that we had to overpay to get Sexson, but it was the exact opposite. Sexson was coming off of major surgery, and his stock was down. Bavasi could have and should have made an "all out" effort for Carlos Delgado, but Bavasi settled for the local boy who not many other teams were willing to take a chance on. Even the team who sent 6 players (Spivey, Counsell, Overbay, Capuano, Moeller, and De la Rosa), almost an entire infield, to the Brewers for him. Another Bavasi gamble that paid off for one year (team MVP in 2005), but not much since then.

And oh by the way, the person who came up with this new format should be sewn into a sack with a snake, a dog, a rooster, and a monkey, and thrown into the Puget Sound. Figuratively speaking, of course.

"Bedard,Hernandez,Silva,Batista & Washburn would be one of the best rotations in baseball."

OMG, is Bavasi posting on this site? AL hitters would be drooling to face the M's staff (though that is partly due to the effects of HGH on the salivary glands).

That's (maybe) the third best rotation in the ALWest. And who plays LF with Jones and Guillen gone?

On a side note, how does the GM not offer arbitration to Guillen, who would have been undervalue, but offer it to Ramirez, who may be the worst statistical P in the history of the AL? Yuck.

Wow, one report from a Chicago writer stated the M's have an offer of Adam Jones, Jeff Clement, Yung Chi Chen, and possibly Morrow for Erik Bedard. Yikes.

I don't like Bedard, and neither does this person in the link below.

Bavasi wants to burn down the farm

Resin,

If that is indeed the offer for Bedard, that is way too much. I agree that they will have to trade Jones to get him, but you can't mortgage the future for 2 years of Erik Bedard. If that was for Johan Santana, I would do that deal, but not for Bedard. Jones and a couple of prospects might be OK, but leave either Morrow or Clement here.

In the bigger picture of things, why should anyone have any confidence in Bavasi who is without a doubt the worst GM in baseball? Givning up Jones to get Bedard would be reasonable given the major starting ptiching questions. Hoping that Bavasi can make the deal is the real frustration

Where are they now? Meche, Pinero, Franklin, & a 6'10" lefty. These were a few of the young phenon pitchers who were going to be the backbone of the Mariners for years. Morrow is another phenon who
is still trying to learn another pitch. Point, trade Morrow NOT Jones. We have lost two offensive
players, Broussard & Guillen. Point, keep our 5-Tool player who can impact every game, not just every 5-days. It is a NO brainer!

We do NEED another top starter!! So, here is my picks to trade for Bedard. Morrow+Balentien+Baek+
Ramerez. We could change Baek for Sherrill if needed. We have nice supply of nice young arms on the 40 roster, who have some major league experience. White, Lowe, Green, O'Flaherty, etc., who are phenon's in wait!

Uh...what? Morrow is in NO way more important than Jones. Adam Jones is a great defensive outfielder and plays every day. You covered the same team I watched last year, and you can't for a second tell me that Raul Ibanez and Jose Guillen didn't cost the team runs in the field, Raul especially. Guillen with his ankle issues, and Ibanez with his old-man issues and hamstring problems. I don't want to have to see two subpar outfielders limping after Jarrod Washburn's flyballs again. And Silva is a groundballer, but not an extreme groundballer, so he'd be hurt by losing Jones too.

Keep in mind, the Mariners team xFIP and FIP last year were above average (aside from Weaver and Horacio, but they were at best AA arms--especially Horacio) This implies that based on the pitchers individual skills, all but two pitchers on the team were average or above. The Mariners had what I think was the third worst defense in the league by most sabermetric statistics--that is more of a contributor to the team's high ERA than the pitchers. ERA+ takes park factors into account, but not defense. FIP, xFIP, and tRA (a new stat developed by Cambridge mind and longtime Seattle resident Graham MacAree) are much more accurate indicators of a pitcher's ability.

(Link to tRA: http://www.lookoutlanding.com/story/2007/12/21/125546/80 )

Adam Jones has the potential to hit .285/.355/.500, even as a right-hander in Safeco field. With a center-fielder's glove in right or left field (I'd put him in left--more ground to cover in left at Safeco than right) that's a borderline MVP candidate. Brandon Morrow just does not have anything close to Cy Young upside.

Morrow is a #3 starter at his peak. He walks too many, and doesn't have command of his secondary pitches. I know his Venezuelan Winter League stats suggest some control, but keep in mind he's not really facing Major League competition and doesn't have to use anything more than his fastball as much more than a show-me pitch. Also, they say Morrow will NOT spend any time in AAA which will hurt his development, and if he ends up as a bullpen pitcher then that's a wasted draft pick.

If you could trade Brandon Morrow, Wladimir Balentien, Chris Tillman, George Sherrill, and Matt Tuiasosopo for Erik Bedard, you do it. And that is entirely possible. I have to believe that a deal would've already gotten done if Bavasi had offered Jones or Krivsky had offered Joey Votto. No one is willing to give up ther best prospect for two years of a guy who will likely sign elsewhere once his contract runs out. A team with Adam Jones AND Erik Bedard has a chance to win the division. A team with just Adam Jones, or Just Erik Bedard does not.

In my mind, if we trade Jeff Clement, Adam Jones, or Carlos Triunfel for Erik Bedard then we've been fleeced. We get two years of a guy with incredible talent but an injury history while Baltimore gets either a 35 HR catcher, a potential MVP centerfielder, or a 17 year old with Miguel Cabrera's upside. Bedard could be had without putting any one of these players in the deal. Morrow is a very good centerpiece and more than Baltimore would get if they waited to deal him (after all, there will be less time on his contract).

In short, Morrow is very, very expendable. Jones, Clement, and Triunfel are not. If we lose any of those three in a deal for Bedard, it'll be exciting as a fan, but depressing for the future of this team and it would show once again--like this organization has proven for years--that they don't know how to evaluate talent.

Felix-Bedard-Silva-Batista-Washburn is a really good rotation. But it's only good enough to win the west if Adam Jones is chasing down flyballs that Silva, Bedard, and Washburn will give up.

Trade Brandon Morrow. Just say no to trading Adam Jones.

Pete--Saunders and Halman disagree with your assertion that we have no talented outfielders beyond Jones and Balentien. They're just 3-4 years off.

Bretticus,
What do you know about Morrows upside? He walked into the MLB right after school and had success. How many successful players never set foot in a minor league system. What are you talking about? Didn't Felix spend two years in the minors? What's his ceiling? All it takes is one really good pitch and some others to keep the hitters off-balance, Morrow has it. He will be a great pitcher, starting or in relief.

If we can keep our prospects, fine, I'll be happy. but that means this season is a bust, unless we play really well (I don't think Mac is capable of coaching well enough). We will have to go into next season looking for pitching yet again plus fill the firstbase, leftfield, and DH spots. We have gone nowhere. Is Bavasi capable of pulling that one together...NO! We won't be able to sign any of the big FA next year, and Bavasi will havto settle for mediocrity again because none of the players you mentioned are even close to ready, except MARROW.

Zach C,

Even right after Morrow was drafted many analysts disliked the pick. He was seen as a shutdown closer or middle of the rotation starter, not an ace. This year did nothing to deter those critics. He finished with a 4.19 ERA and nearly as many walks (50) and he did Strikeouts (66)...for anyone comparing him to Felix, Felix had 53 walks in 130 more innings than Morrow pitched. 3 more walks in 130 more innings. Felix wins.

Morrows xFIP (which predicts ERA if you regularize homerun rates) was a terrible 5.19. And you also might like to know that a 4.19 ERA for a middle releiver is fairly bad.

Sure his 8.8 K/9 innings looks good, but his 6.7 BB/9 innings is awful. Even if you say he would improve, it's extremely unlikely for anyone to improve drastically enough with just the Winter Leagues. If you project Morrow for 7 K/9 and 4BB/9, that puts him at about Gil Meche 2004--a 5.01 ERA, and 5.10 xFIP. Morrow at best could be what Gil Meche was this year--a bad #2, and a really good #3. Plus, that BB rate, even if you knock it down 2.7 points from last year expecting improvement, is still worse than Horacio Ramirez's 2007 BB rate.

I know about Morrow's upside because I followed him from the first day he was drafted, went down to Arizona and watch him pitch this year, attended 40 home games last year, and have broken down his stats with the rest of the Mariner blogosphere from day one of his Mariner career.

Also, looking to sign a pitcher next year is a great idea. CC Sabathia, Johan Santana, and Ben Sheets are all free agents. So with the Mariners deep pocket books, it's GOOD to need a starter next year. Trade Washburn to make room for one of those aces if you need to. Who says we can't sign them? We did sign Sexson and Beltre when they were marquee free agents, and we really got Beltre for way less than he deserves. Anyone who says he's overpaid is wrong, if anything he's underpaid. And .800 OPS and gold glove third baseman for $12 million a year is a steal. The Mariners have money and could afford to throw $18 million a year at Sabathia, and would if we still have a hole in the rotation.

First base: If the Mariners were smart (hahaha) then they'd trade Richie Sexson for pennies on the dollar. I'm talking trade him for a Wiki Gonzalez type player and pay $7 of Sexson's $14 million. Even if Sexson bounces back to around .250/.330/.465, which many people project him for, we still save the money. Then we could run a platoon of Raul Ibanez vs. RHP (which he hit .301/.371/.528 against) and Mike Morse vs. LHP (Career .333/.391/.467 vs. LHP) and you've got about a .310/.375/.490 line out of your first baseman with pretty good defense.

Left Field: Jeremy Reed. Yeah, I know he's only likely to hit .265/.340/.390 but he's got the glove of a center fielder and his defensive contributions render his weak offense moot. He helps the whole pitching staff as his glove in left field would be where triples go to die.

DH: I would've said to stick with Ben Broussard, but obviously that won't happen. Signing a free Agent like Tony Clark would be a good stop gap till we can get a permanent solution. Clark could slug .500 as a left-handed hitter playing half his games in Safeco. And Vidro can DH vs. LHPs giving you a pretty solid platoon of contact vs. Lefties and power vs. Righties. Plus, whichever one isn't playing becomes a great bench bat.

So basically, trading for Bedard and keeping Jones allows you a defensive outfield of three center fielders in Reed, Ichiro, and Jones. Trading Sexson for a sixer of PBR allows you to get Raul's poor defense at a less important position and allows you to keep his bat. This team keeps it's top prospects (Jones, Clement, Triunfel) and can contend for the west.

If you have to trade Morrow to get that team, you do it in an instant because Morrow will NEVER be the ace that Bedard is. Morrow/Balentien/Tillman/Sherrill/Tuiasosopo is very close to the package the D-Backs gave for Dan Haren, and while Bedard is the better pitcher he has an injury history so if Baltimore doesn't trade him for that, they're keeping him.

I Totally agree with Geoff. Morrow is more important at this stage. No matter what the scouts say, Jones still has never produced in the Majors, and the truth is that Morrow has. We know what he can do now, and with a couple years of late inning showdowns with A-Rods, Vlads, and Mannys, (and developing 1 or 2 more pitches) he will be one of the feared right handed power arms in the American League.
I would give up Jones and any other prospect (except Morrow) for Bedard.
Pitching is king; I can live without Jones's unproven stick if we have Morrow and Bedard.

I watched Jeremy Reed play this year and in Seattle and I'm sorry to say he's not a Major League everyday player. Reed continued to hit .232 against lefties at the triple-A level he already played at from the previous season.

Reed has a Randy Winn arm which is a liability at the corners. His range is unbelievable, he can't hit for power or average, and he can't steal bases. He's a career minor leaguer or 4th outfielder for defense at the big league level.

I'm in agreement that Morrow wasn't that great last year. Then again the Jim Street's of the world have painted the M's last year as "serious contenders" which is laughable. This team is not an Erik Bedard away from beating the AL contenders, so it makes little sense to rid the team of four 25-man roster players that are cheap and talented (under club control for years) to save Bavasi's job to hover around .500 this year.

"Let the dumbasses in other clubs OOH and AHH at Adam Jones for now, but those kinds of players are MUCH more easily replaced."

Wow. That's just completely and utterly not true.

"We have guys in the minors that should do as well or better than Jones."

Like who? Jones ranks as one of the top prospects in baseball, and EASILY the Mariners best prospect. He also, unlike Morrow, is pretty much done with his development.

"Maybe he will become a superstar, but there's no way to tell that now."

But Brandon Morrow somehow is a star? Brandon Morrow was an average major league reliever last year, with a below average repetoir. He has one plus major league pitch that he cant command, and zero credible secondary pitches.

Adam Jones, RIGHT NOW, is a more valuable player than Brandon Morrow.

"Keep Morrow, and get Bedard and we got premium pitching that will hold throughout the whole season."

Brandon Morrow is NOT a premium pitcher. He would be a well below average starter, and an average reliever. Morrow really has no business being in the Major Leagues right now.

Now, that's not a knock on him. He just needs to develop his talents like everyone else.

"And frankly, I think he has just a bit more insight into this stuff than you dipsticks sitting around drinking beer and watching the computer screen."

No offense to Geoff (I'm sure he's well aware that I respect him, even when I disagree with him) but how exactly does being a sports writer make you know more about the game than anyone else?

"No matter what the scouts say, Jones still has never produced in the Majors, and the truth is that Morrow has. We know what he can do now, and with a couple years of late inning showdowns with A-Rods, Vlads, and Mannys, (and developing 1 or 2 more pitches) he will be one of the feared right handed power arms in the American League."

This kind of argument is easily the most annoying. Why is it that dominating the PCL earned Adam Jones the reputation of having proved nothing, yet a year of average to below average relief in the majors earns Morrow the the title of future relief ace?

What exactly has Morrow proved? That he has one good pitch?

This idea that Jone's has proven nothing, and Morrow has proven he is a future a star couldn't be more misguided.

"All it takes is one really good pitch and some others to keep the hitters off-balance, Morrow has it."

The key words there, being "some others". Brandon MOrrow has one really good pitch. He doesn't have the others. And he doesn't know where that said pitch is going.

And anyone who thinks that a starter can survive with only one major league pitch is absolutely crazy.

All of you screaming keep Jones!, or, keep Morrow! or, trade the lot! - here's my scream: DON'T TRADE ANYONE ON OUR TOP TEN LIST! Who are the top ten? We've had the top ten delineated all season, from Triunfel, Aumont, several more in A, AA, even Rookie, that need only time and experience to contribute over the next ten years.
Someone has said men are like microwave ovens, want everything in five minutes. The "crockpot" approach pays off over the long haul.

Bretticus,
I love it when some says Adam Jones has the potential to hit .285/.355/.500 then stops short when allowing Morrow to improve and develop. Jones numbers are going to improve and Morrow's isn't? You also discount any signs of Morrow's improvement in Winter ball. Take your blinders off Bretticus.

You sound like Bavasi and his handling of Bazardo.

Adam Jones had more time to develop as a professional, we don't know what Morrow's ceiling is. Santana had an 6.49 ERA with a 5.65 BB9 in his first major league season.

You're dreaming if you think the Mariners will be able to outbid the Yankees and the Red Sox for Santana in free agency.

You say Bedard is not going to re-sign after 2 years. What about Beltre and his agent Boras? If you're going to judge 2010 from this far away, it seems to be a rebuilding year anyway. I don't see anyone that presently can take his place of his bat and his defense.

I agree that Jones is slightly more important than Morrow only because it doesn't look like Balentien is ready, unless the Ms pick up Lofton or Shawn Green or someone like that. The Mariners have Baek/Rowland-Smith/Dickey/HoRam if they lose Morrow.

Bedard is the 3rd best pitcher in the AL according to tRA. better than Santana. I can deal with giving up either of the two, Jones or Morrow , and some other prospects for Bedard.

Ok, what are you talking about. Morrow walked into the league and blew the best hitters in baseball away. Thats an asset. Jone got called up and showed absolutly no presents at the plate. He looked like a scared little kid...BECAUSE HE IS. There is no way he "is pretty much done with his development." He could play right, but one more year wouldn't hurt. I like both, but if I had to keep one it would be the pitcher. I don't like any of the FA OF on the market tho, that could be a problem.

This deal wont happen, the Os want both and bavasi isn't that stupid...knock on wood.

Sorry, that was directed towards Faceplant.

Geoff, Appreciate you comments on Bavasi & his posturing. I think your are dead on! It would not hurt my feeling to stand pat at this point. We could try and get Bedard at the trade dead line.
We have done a great job drafting young arms. And, we have a knuckle-baller emerging into an inning eater. I concure Morrow shows great potential! But, we have offense to replace. And, we need to improve outfield defense. Thus, KEEP
Jones!! Trade Morrow! How can we not go for the 3rd best pitcher in the AL! We have a dominate right hander & to have a dominate lefty would be awesome! We have a nice group of young arms with some major league experience. So, let Morrow go!
Who's to say Lowe, Green, Jimenez, etc. just as valuable to the Mariners. To reload who do we have more of?? Pitchers or position players and who do we need now?

"Sexson was coming off of major surgery, and his stock was down. Bavasi could have and should have made an "all out" effort for Carlos Delgado, but Bavasi settled for the local boy who not many other teams were willing to take a chance on."

Sexson wasn't Bavasi call.

Wasn't Bavasi's call. Who's fault was it? Pat Gillick's? LOL. Bavasi was the GM. It's his call. He certainly was involved in the failed attempt for Delgado and signing of Sexson.

Zach,

"Ok, what are you talking about. Morrow walked into the league and blew the best hitters in baseball away. Thats an asset."

Brandon Morrow
5.14 xFIP, 8.8 K/G, 6.7 BB/G

Player B
5.00 xFIP, 8.3 K/G, 6.1 BB/G

Player B struck out slightly fewer than Morrow, but offset it by walking slightly less. They were essentially the same. Who is player B?

That would be Matt Thornton's 2005 season. I don't recall anyone claiming he was blowing the leagues best hitters away. Brandon Morrow wasn't blowing the leagues best hitters away, he was pitching like the average reliever that he is.

I'm with you James, if you're going to trade a player, trade Morrow and not Jones. If the M's aren't going to use Morrow correctly, and he ends up in long relief, that is where we're stocked in the minors.

Anyhow, Bavasi is doing the right thing (gasp!) by not meeting Baltimore's demands for a guy who is an injury risk, will likely leave in 2 years, and probably can't give you 200 innings.

I just hope he doesn't blink on this one.

BTW, here's food for thought that Jason Churchill made on his prospectinsider.com web site (a great site):

"Bedard isn’t ever coming to seattle via trade if Baltimore is going to ask for a package better than the one NYY and Boston are offering for Johan.

Jones-Morrow-Clement > Hughes-Cabrera, Ellsbury-Bowden-Lowrie and the second Boston offer of Crisp-Lester-Lowrie-Masterson.

And it’s not close.

Jones is the best talent in any of the offers."

"He looked like a scared little kid...BECAUSE HE IS. There is no way he "is pretty much done with his development."

First of all I love how the guy who has over 550 professional games under his belt is the scared kid, and the guy who has 68 pro games under his belt is the fearless releif ace. Second, I should have worded that differently. Adam Jones can continue to develop at the ML level, but he has nothing left to learn in AAA. He has mastered that level, and leaving him in AAA would be beneficial to nobody. Adam Jones can play in the major leagues right now.

By the way, no offense Geoff, but this format is horrible. The captcha thing for some reason will tell me I typed the wrong letters in (when I know I didn't), and when I go back to redo it, I have to type the entire post all over again.

Faceplant, I guess you are wondering the same thing I am when I read a post like that. I guess Jones is supposed to come up and immediately emulate Arod in his prime, and Morrow can come up, get pelted pretty heavily as hitters figured him out and expose that he has only one pitch, and has no command over it...and it may take a full year against inferior competition, maybe two years, before he corrects both problems.

But Morrow is an ace and Jones is overrated?

Just can't figure out what people are thinking...

And agreed, this format is not user friendly...

"Sexson wasn't Bavasi call."

So nice to meet you, Mr. Tim F. Bavasi.

Too bad you can't attempt to rewrite Mariner History in other ways.

Hi, Faceplant, nice to see you back around. I want to ignore the whole Jones/Morrow debate and respond to your comment about Geoff being an "expert."

Also, you should always highlight and copy your comments before you attempt to post. I had to do that even on the old format; it was rare that there was a screw-up, but not rare enough not to drive me batty, if you get my meaning.

Personally, I take sportswriters as they come, rather than slavishly believing everything each of them says. I'd guess that's what most people do, too. In my opinion, Geoff's comments have a lot of weight because he's proven himself reasonable and rational, neither overly pessimistic (as, in my experience, it seems "home" sports guys tend to be--why, in order to appear more "professional," more "objective"?) nor boosteristic.

Also, Geoff's full-time job is to be around an MLB team, and has been for 10 years. I'd say, given the other element of rationality and balance, that this makes him more privy to sources of information we can't access, more knowledgeable in general about the day-to-day workings of a team, more experienced, and plainly, more of an expert than any 20 of us commenting here put together.

Resin and Mr. X (to some extent), please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my impression that the M's did go after Delgado but he didn't want to sign here. Bavasi can't force FAs to sign if they don't want to.

I would again like to point out that you all are toeing the company line, so to speak, about the M's mediocrity and their record last year being a fluke. If you can stop swallowing what you're told to swallow for a second and look at it objectively, you can see that there has been a progression common to all improving teams of more wins the past three years.

You can also see that tremendous underperforming and injuries hampered their ability to win last year.

I would strongly suggest that Sexson's, Weaver's and Ramirez's underperformance, Vidro's, Guillen's, Ibanez's injuries and recoveries therefrom, all contributed to the M's winning fewer games than they could have.

We may not make the playoffs next season, but I think we'll see 90+ victories. I don't call that medicrity.

"Also, Geoff's full-time job is to be around an MLB team, and has been for 10 years. I'd say, given the other element of rationality and balance, that this makes him more privy to sources of information we can't access,"

I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't privy to inside information. I simply meant that just because he's a sportswriter doesn't mean that he knows more about the game itself than anyone else. While sports writers undoubtedly have insight into the day to day operations of a team, it doesn't mean they know any more about the strategic side of the game. Does that make sense?

Being a sports writer doesn't mean you are smarter at evaluating a trade, or in game strategy.

Anyway, I don't think I even want to continue talking about this, as I do respect Geoff and I don't want it to seem like I'm somehow attacking him. I'm not.

I don't understand how you equate minor league pitching to major league hitting. Jones obviously has talent. Morrow went straight to the best hitters in the world. I really don't care what someone says about what a player might become. If you cant mentally play the game well, it doesn't matter how far or hard you can hit a minor league pitch or how many games you played. I liked Morrow's mentality, he went after every hitter and most of the time he won. He proved he could have success. I havent seen anything like that from jones (We havent seen a lot of him, but it wasn't there... I wasn't impressed). He may have talent, but if he stays passive at the plate, there could be some problems.

W/E, like I say every time; It would be great if we could keep both and see them play for the next 15 years.

Merrill, Sexson signed during the winter meetings (reported on 12/13, but officially signed on 12/15), just four days after Seattle was named as the frontrunner to sign Delgado. After that, Bavasi was still in negotiations with Delgado, hoping to move Sexson to left field if he was able to sign both. On 12/17, Bavasi signed Beltre, which didn't leave enough money for a Delgado signing. It's obvious that Bavasi jumped the gun by signing Sexson so soon in the process. Carlos Delgado didn't sign with the Marlins until January 26th. All of this is well-documented, even in this very newspaper.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2002193007_ston01.html

"But general manager Bill Bavasi has publicly lamented the Mariners' inability to lure Delgado, whom they envisioned as the centerpiece of their rebuilding campaign.

"They showed interest, but they seemed to be moving a little faster than us," Delgado said. "We wanted to get a good idea where the market was going, and obviously they wanted to put a team together. I guess two and two didn't add to four there."

Indeed, in the end, it was a matter of timing, not money, because the Mariners made it clear to Delgado's camp that they would be competitive financially — not just an empty promise, as evidenced by the $100 million-plus they eventually dished out to Sexson and Beltre.

The Mariners jumped in early, expressing their strong interest to Delgado's agent, David Sloane, at the GM meetings in November. Later that month, they sent former Toronto GM Pat Gillick, now a Seattle consultant, to meet Delgado in Puerto Rico at his parents' home and lobby on the M's behalf.

"I've known Gillick a long time," Delgado said. "He signed me when I was 16 years old. He was very professional; he wasn't very pushy. Obviously, he came down to let me know the team was interested. I'm sure they sent him to get a read on what kind of reaction I was going to give."


But Delgado, and his camp, continued to be inscrutable. At the winter meetings in Anaheim in December, the M's met with Delgado and Sloane and put forward their opening offer — four years and $40 million.

"They were the first one to make an offer," Delgado said. "That offer they made at the time I didn't think was going to cut it. It was a chance that I needed to take — whether I signed first, or I waited to see how things developed."

In a long article in the Toronto Sun that chronicled the Delgado negotiations, reporter Bob Elliott details a negotiating session the Mariners had with Sloane during the winter meetings. The M's were ready to hammer out a deal on the spot. Bavasi is portrayed pointing to a blank easel with a pad of paper hanging on it.

"What kind of number will it take for us to put up there to get it done?" Bavasi asks.

Sloane wasn't prepared to answer, and ominously, the meeting was interrupted when Sexson's agent, Casey Close, showed up at the Mariners' suite.

Fearing that if they hung in the Delgado sweepstakes they might lose out on fallback options, the Mariners pulled out of the Delgado talks and instead, within the week, signed both Sexson and Beltre for a combined $114 million."

"I don't understand how you equate minor league pitching to major league hitting. Jones obviously has talent. Morrow went straight to the best hitters in the world."

I'm breaking down what Brandon Morrow is. I'm not comparing the two in any way, so I'm not even sure what you are talking about. Brandon Morrow went straight to the best hitters in baseball. That's a fact. It's also a fact that he really wasn't that great, and clearly had a lot of development to do.

"I really don't care what someone says about what a player might become."

Unless of course that someone is YOU telling us that Brandon Morrow is a future star apparently.

"If you cant mentally play the game well, it doesn't matter how far or hard you can hit a minor league pitch or how many games you played."

Of course there is absolutely no evidence that Adam Jones can't "mentally play the game". All you can give us is your own determination of his mental abilities based off of watching him on a TV screen.

"I liked Morrow's mentality, he went after every hitter and most of the time he won."

That sentence should read that "he went after every hitter, and succeeded at an average rate." All while having a WELL below average walk rate, and a below average ML repitoir.

"He proved he could have success."

You can keep saying this all you want, and it still won't be correct. Brandon Morrow was not a dominant reliever last year. His horrendous walk totals, and lack of ANY credible secondary pitches makes it obvious to anyone that he shouldn't be in the majors.

And this whole "Jones hasn't proven anything" argument is really getting old. Minor league stats DO matter, and studies have shown they are a reliable indicator of future Major League success.

Mr. X, thanks for the correction. You and Resin were right and I was wrong.

Faceplant, I didn't mean to imply you were attacking Geoff. I didn't think you were. I still believe a guy who's around the game as his profession is potentially more "expert" at both judging in-game decisions and evaluating trades than any of us.

That said, as I said, I judge even "experts" on a case-by-case, point-by-point basis. For example, I disagreed with Geoff about Broussard, though I realized I wasn't there day-to-day and was very likely wrong. This last point, the humility to suspend a sense of 100% conviction, is what I see a lot of folks on this blog lacking. (Not necessarily you; this isn't a personal attack, just a general observation.)

Faceplant,

I've seen some fans compare Jones to Griffey and ARod. Other than the mediocre stats in their first season or their first 2 seasons, I don't get it. Jones had speed and power, but that's all they have in common.

Griffey was smooth at the plate and in the outfield. ARod was a little less smooth at the plate but smooth in the field. Jones has neither. Morrow has shown poise for most of his outings.

Look at what Jones has done in at the major league level. An OPS of .557 in 2006 and .506 in 2007 against RH pitchers.

We're supposed to base our opinions on Jones AAA numbers, yet we can only use what Morrow has done in the bigs?

If that is what YOU choose to use then fine. But some of us aren't buying that, even to the least degree.

Merrill: In my opinion, Geoff has insight into the game through his contacts in the clubhouse. Other then that he is no more an expert on the Ms then you, me or anyone else on the board. Statistics don't always tell the whole story. For example, people use Jones major league statistics against him. But the so called experts in the Ms organization had Jones playing everyday in Tacoma this year because "he needed to play every day." As an everyday player in Tacoma he did well. BUT, when he was called up, he didn't play everyday. Of course his numbers would not be as good. Will he be an all star in the bigs? No one knows--even if they claim they do. I still have to look at a past minor leaguer of the year centerfielder and Can't miss catcher we got for Freddie Garcia. Where are they now? One's still in the minors and the other hit .237 in the bigs last year and was non-renewed.

Your point about the Ms not being mediocre I have to disagree with. Finishing 6 games out of first is mediocre. If they finish second and miss the play-offs they are still mediocre. IMHO Progression in wins is not an indicator of mediocrity, just progression. My point is that the bar was set too low 3-4 years ago--and the "progress" has not exceeded mediocrity, and based on what I see so far, the Ms remain a mediocre team. What you have chose to say is the opposite of what others have said, but falls under the half empty, half full story. Many say that over achievers like the starter with 16 wins, (name escapes me now), a hot relief pitching staff, a top closer, and some timely hitter got them the 88 wins. You say that injuries and underachieving kept them from getting more wins. Tomatoes/tomatos.

Either way they finished in second place--and I'll even add that the 88 wins happened, not because the Ms were so good, but at the end of the season McLaren chose to put up numbers to make his season look better instead of playing the kids.

"We're supposed to base our opinions on Jones AAA numbers, yet we can only use what Morrow has done in the bigs?"

I'm not even sure what you are getting at. Morrow spent so little time in the minors that his minor league numbers are almost completely useless.

Oh, and second of all I've never compared Jones to Griffey and A-Rod, and anyone who has doesn't know what they are talking about.

Exactly, it's permature to judge Morrow with only one season of experience above the high A level.

"Exactly, it's permature to judge Morrow with only one season of experience above the high A level."

The following is what you said in your previous post.

"Look at what Jones has done in at the major league level. An OPS of .557 in 2006 and .506 in 2007 against RH pitchers."

So apparently I'm being unfair when I evaluate Brandon Morrow based on his 63.3 innings pitched in the majors (even when that's the only thing we have to evaluate him), but you have no problem judging Adam Jones based on the 73 games he appeared in.

It's not like Morrow has a small sample at the MLB level. A full year is more than enough time to evaluate what a player can do. What is it with this irrational love of Brandon Morrow from everyone. He struck out Guerrero, and A-Rod, and that's pretty much his claim to fame. He just isn't that good of a pitcher at this point in his career.

My statements are directed to the development time of a prospect in the Mariner organization. One year of development above high A ball is just too little to make a fully informed conclusion of ability, regardless of sample size.

Johan Santana played in 30 games in his rookie season, starting 5 of them with 86IP, 102H, 11HR, 54BB, 64K, 6.49 ERA. Morrow is in an earlier stage of development than Jones. Good prospects usually improve and develop in their first few years at the higher levels.

In Brandon Morrow's defense I'll say:
I saw him pitching 3 games while we was here(I'm from Barquisimeto, Venezuela) and he have many potential, although he's not ready yet to be the 5th pitcher in the Mariner's rotation, he deserves another opportunity; keep him on Tacoma AAA for at least 6 months to get experience and control over his pitching command; Brandon easily could do the "big grade" in 2009.

In Adam Jones' case wow....he's playing here and he's a great outfielder, much elegance, style and a very nice player in general. He should be the regular CF of the Mariners next season. That's why I love my winter league...I can see the greatest MLB prospects playing here...

Greetings from Venezuela to all
Happy new year 2008

Christina

Hey Christina,

Nice to hear from a fan in Venezuela. Do you have an opinion on who the Mariners should trade or keep. Jones vs Morrow?
And, do you have any impressions on the other Mariners and how they playing there? Such as Cesar Jimenez?

Oh Christina,

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!!

Hi James from Walla Walla !
Happy New year to you too.....

Neither Jones nor Morrow should be traded, they are the future of the Mariners and both are very young. I have to say that I am very pleased of having had the opportunity to see 2 future stars here. As I told before send Morrow to Tacoma AAA to get more experience and leave Jones in the Outfield.
About Cesar Jimenez, his arm is much better now.
He's the setup of the team here and his ERA is very good, he will surprise many next year.

Christina, If we were going to get Bedard, a legit #1 starter in a trade we would have to part with Morrow or Jones I would bet. So, you would not trade for the 3rd best pitcher in the AL?
If you would trade, which Mariners would you trade?

On a different note, have you seen Carlos Silva pitch? And, what do you think of the Mariners picking him up as a freeagent?

Hard question....it's not easy really
but I should traded Jones...

On Carlos Silva, well he's a very good pitcher with bad luck; Always injured but if he cares more about his health he'll be an excelent piece in the rotation. About the free agency, well if you do not obtain Johan Santana who is the best, it's time to look and come to the market of the available ones and seek for the similar one to that one that you couldn't have