Sad day, hearing your thoughts on Bavasi's return. Not a surprise though, this organization loves rewarding incompetence. Where in the world is Chris Antonetti?

WTF?

WHy on earth would the owners want Bavasi to continue and try to run the franchise into the ground?

I find it amusing to see how a coach, manager, politician or any famous public figure are getting honored with laurels and accolades whenever they pass away, quit or are fired.

Geoff: your curiously effusive compliments for Terry Ryan, delivered post-mortem, post factum exemplifies this phenomenon quite nicely:

Terry Ryan, perhaps the best general manager in the game of baseball...

I couldn't agree more. Ditto to Danny Baseball. We have seen several years of Bavasi's trademark...high salaries and long term deals to average, many below average, and 1 or 2 above average players. We also saw a farm system that had no team in their league playoffs, and only a handful of starting pitching prospects, let alone position players. This is the legacy of "Dollar Bill Bavasi." Good: Jose Guillan, and playing Betencourt, Jose Vidro's quality at bats. Average: Ichiro's 5 year deal(too long),Beltre's great defense and average run production for a corner infielder, using farm grown pitchers in the bullpen, and signing our "1" picks the last several years. Below average: Sexson for 4 years and a 150+ strikeout average and below .240 average, Miguel Batista and Jerrod Washburn to 4 year deals, signing Jose Lopez to a big deal and watching him unravel, trading Asdrubel Cabrera, a great young 2nd baseman who now STARTS for Cleveland. Disasters: Horacio Ramirez, Jeff Weaver, Carlos Guillan for 2 nobodies(Guillan is in top production for all infielders in A.L. not named A-Rod), never developing quality starters in our farm system so we didn't have to pay millions for has beens, and impeding the development of King Felix with babysitting him while we watch other young pitchers named Lysander, Papelbon, the kid in Toronto, and yes, even the Yankees, use 20-24 year old flame throwers while Felix still after 3 years can't spot a fastball consistently.

Bavasi has his problems, but I'd say they're far from the real problem with the Mariners. The farm system has been revitalized since he took over. No more drafts of the wrong Garciaparra and the other detritus accumulated by Gillick. The rebirth of the farm system gives Bavasi room to make his mistakes at the major league level.

Now, if we could just find a manager who would ACTUALLY PLAY the prospects from the farm system...

All that being said, if the Mariners could keep the guys who run the farm system and ditch Bavasi for... hell... a potted plant, so much the better. Still, I'd take Bavasi's problems if it means keeping the farm system together.

I also agree with Danny Baseball. The M's are anti-innovation evaluating player talent (though not with their marketing). Funny how when the phrase "accountability" is used, it's generally for the typical working people, not those high up in large organizations. Yes, that's a generalization, but it's too often a true one.

Geoff, Crosscut had some well-deserved praise for your blog in their analysis of Northwest newspaper web sites. The article is located here.

enough is enough..he's had plenty of opportunities to get the job done and have not accomplished a thing..

F I R E B A V A S I ! ! !

Winning division titles on a budget 10's of millions higher than the Twins would be nice! I think that Terry Ryan should be a serious consideration here, if only for the fact that it hasn't exactly been a run of unadulterated success here.

Just look across the street at the Seahawks to see an organization that has identified needs, signed key talent, and is constantly working at renewal and playing youth while working under the constraints of a salary cap. Seahawk management is proactive, like the best baseball organizations are.

sad, sad day. well actually every day BavASSi is allowed to be the GM is a sad day.

Replying to Lance's question from the previous thread:

Cubby, you're funny. Weren't you the guy clamoring in 2005 for the Mariners to trade that bum J.J. Putz for giving up two late game home runs that cost the M's a couple of games? Weren't you the one who said he wasn't ever going to amount to anything? Posted by Lance at 12:46 PM, Sep 13, 2007

In 2005, I was living in Chicago, and have never heard of JJ Putz until after I moved to Seattle in late April of this year. In fact, the only thing I knew about the Mariners was what everyone else in the country know about the Seattle Mariners: The laughing stock of the league in 2001 when they won a record-tying 116 games but choked miserable in the playoffs. Plus...
The laughing stock of the league whose owners listened to their fans a little too much, to the point of stupidity — Seattle sports fans who kicked and screamed like spoiled brats if the team didn't get rid of:
Randy Johnson
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Lou Piniella
Jason Varitek
Tino Martinez
and a bunch of others.

And that's only baseball. Apparently, this city is reknowned for getting rid of successful sports figures and sports franchises.

Factually accurate as always.

Who cares if it's "factually accurate" NB. I see you're lurking/stalking back there, eh? lol.

The fact is that is the pereception the rest of the league and their fans think of this Mariner franchise. Whethere it's true or not, factual or not, the fact is the Mariners are the laughing stock around the league. A bunch of lumberjacks who know squat about sports. It doesn't matter what you or I think. That is how you and this team are perceived.

And the M's are certainly not hamstrung by the same limitations of other teams.

Aaaah, but M's management has its own hamstring:

Itself.

I'm not very aware of how much Bavasi's moves were dictated by McLaren's requests, but Bavasi surely take some blame for the team's collapse. Yes, the team overachieved for much of the year. But the fact remains that the M's failed to improve themselves for the stretch run. Whether it was a failure to get a pitcher (at the asking prices, this is not a huge bone to pick) or a failure to use internal options, the fact remains that Bavasi has presided over three last-place finishes and a monumental collapse out of the playoff race in his four years here.

If that's not a recipe for change, I don't know what is. Let's face it, this organization is owned by men who know little of the game and care little for wins. They hire an imcompetent GM, and let him hire incompetent managers and make questionable personnel moves.

Get rid of Lincoln, get rid of Bavasi, and for the love of Pete, get rid of John McLaren.

In fact, the only thing I knew about the Mariners was what everyone else in the country know about the Seattle Mariners: The laughing stock of the league in 2001 when they won a record-tying 116 games but choked miserable in the playoffs.

Wait! You mean you nothing about the M's before this year? Noooooo!!!

Wait! You mean you nothing about the M's before this year? Noooooo!!! Posted by Adam at 01:24 PM, Sep 13, 2007

LOL!

Yes, losing 2 of 3 to the Cubs (while scoring the same number of runs - 11) was a beating I won't soon forget. Epic. Truly epic.

And FYI - I'm not a Seahawks fan.

It took a collapse like this to make me and Adam agree on something. Fire Lincoln (who actually has the authority to fire Lincoln anyway? just the owners?), fire Bavasi then fire McLaren, re-hire him and fire him again.

Cubby, I don't think people around the league consider the M's and their fans to be "lumberjacks" (though Bucky Jacobsen would certainly fit that bill). When I think of incompetent franchises around the league the Orioles, Reds, Pirates, Rangers, Devil Rays and Royals all come to peoples lips way before the M's do. Sure, we are a little underachieving, but so are the Dodgers, Giants, Phillies and yes, the Cubs.

When baseball fans outside of Seattle talk about the Mariners most of their perception is that 1) they have a star in Ichiro, 2) a young super talent in Felix 3) a beautiful ballpark.

To call the Mariners a laughing stock of a franchise is inaccurate. I wouldn't disagree if you said that about the team's play in the past month, but as far as franchises go, there are several with worse owners and management.

Who cares if it's "factually accurate" NB.

I will mark in the "not caring" category.

But thanks for (again) insulting the entire region. FWIW I think of you as Chris Farley in Superfans. DaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaCubsdaCubsdaCubsdaCubsdaCubs!!!!

James - I think most baseball people consider the M's a joke (not that Cubby has any insight into that) for the way they run the organization. We've continually got one of the highest payrolls, but we continue to make horrible on-field and off-field decisions. Jason Churchill over at prospectinsider.com has mentioned on numerous occasions that scouts he's talked to believe the Mariners run their farm system horribly. Face it, this franchise is a joke.

GoCougs - I guess the Japanese group would have to fire Lincoln, but they are so hands off, I don't see how that could happen.

Wouldn't it be great if Mark Cuban bought the Mariners?

Pardon me, mark YOU in the "not caring" category. I is the typist.

Geoff,
I agree about Ryan....I rooted for Minn (when not playing the M's) because of him. If in fact Bavasi remains it will be real easy not to invest any energy into the Mariners next season. I think I'll go back to rooting for the LA Dodgers.

Oh, c'mon, Adam. Beating up on the Mariners has become a favorite pastime around the league. Like you didn't know that.

Taking games away from the Mariners, and adding to your team's win column so you can get in the playoffs has been so damn easy, you can call it the "Geico Phenomenon": It's so easy, even a caveman can do it.

"The laughing stock of the league whose owners listened to their fans a little too much, to the point of stupidity -- Seattle sports fans who kicked and screamed like spoiled brats if the team didn't get rid of:
Randy Johnson
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Lou Piniella
Jason Varitek
Tino Martinez
and a bunch of others."
.
Wow, Cubby. How did such a misleading perspective ever make its way to Chicago. Are you sure you just didn't make the whole this up?
.
If anything, M's fans wanted all those guys to stay (although most had never heard of Jason Varitek at the time).
.
Fact is (Cubby, you do know what facts are, don't you?), if anything, Seattle fans are renound for NOT wanting to see their favorites go away.
.
#1 example is when the Sonics years ago had a deal with the Chicago Bulls to send Shawn Kemp there for Scottie Pippen. That is until Sonics ownership saw how up in arms fans were over the thought (primarily over KJR radio, no blogging back then). The deal was squashed. Kemp stayed. And, Pippen then continued to be Robin the Boy Wonder to Michael Jordan's Batman. The rest, as they say, is history.
.
So, where'd you get your mistaken idea from?

I can't help wonder if Ryan had to go because he irked the superstar pitcher and to keep said pitcher a change had to be made, in much the same way Mike Hargrove had to go because he irks the superstar centerfielder and to keep said CFer a new manager had to be in place.
.
Of course, Mike says it's not so, as I'm sure Terry won't, either. But, I wonder.

How did such a misleading perspective ever make its way to Chicago. Are you sure you just didn't make the whole this up? ...So, where'd you get your mistaken idea from? Posted by Lance at 01:47 PM, Sep 13, 2007

Actually, it's not just sports, come to think of it. Seattle also lost the corporate headquarters of UPS and Boeing to other cities. Putting those events alone in perspective, that's much worse than losing sports figures. I'm surprised the region hasn't got rid of Starbucks and Microsoft.

Geoff, I am a first time writer on this blog. Saw your questions about Blue Jays and continue to see some comparisons.

One thing we ought to remember is that Jays are in the richest of divisions in all of baseball. Yankees & Red Sox have unlimited resources when it come to spending over luxury tax threshold. Jays do have to spend a bit more than any other teams in baseball because that's what it takes to allure players to north of the border and that in itself a challenge for the ownership. Also it is a big hockey town so marketability is not as easy. Now that Rogers have bought out the formerly Sky Dome they have committed to invest more on the Blue Jays and they did last year on AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan, Frank Thomas and resigning of Wells etc. Unfortunately, injuries have hurt them this year but that shouldn't be an excuse because that's why you build your farm system (Billy Bean philosophy).

Jays' pitching is one of the best in the league since the All Star break and they have the up and coming youngsters in Shaun Marcum, Jesse Litsch and Dustin MGowan to support Roy Halladay and AJ Burnett so it could be a potent rotation for years to come barring injuries. They will get BJ Ryan back and with this year's closer Accardo in a setup role next year that's a great foundation for bullpen so Jays pitching should be good. Batting has been the main problem for the Jays this year. Vernon Wells has been battling injuries all year and so is Troy Glaus. If their 3-4 hitters aren't healthy that's a big problem for any team. I think Jays can put up a contending team with the foundation they have now in a tough AL East, if they can spend wisely on big bats and manage the farm system well to fill the gap. It's a tall order for any team in the major league unless it's Boston or NY so you can imagine the enormity of the challenge. Also remember it was not too long ago the Blue Jays won back-to-back World Series considering age of the franchise.

As for Seattle, our home team (and I am a season ticket holder), we have no excuses. I don't know much about the A's but Oakland A's are a small market team (compare SF Giants) and Billy Bean has been putting a contending team almost every year. It's all starts from the farm system and Billy Bean's defined how to build teams in small markets. Unlike the A's, the Seattle Mariners does have enough resources and have the marketability among Japanese fan base as well. There aren't any baseball teams in the NorthWest region closer to Seattle despite having cities with other sports franchises. We're in a unique position to tap Portland and Vancouver fan base as well so there is more marketability for us (one can say Toronto has the whole Canada but you know that's not how it works over there!). We have no excuses to not put a play-off team on a regular basis. We're failing awefully. We have no one to blame.

Oh BTW, I am not sure why you're comparing M's with Blue Jay's, instead of A's or Angels, a team in the AL East? ;-)

#1 example is when the Sonics years ago had a deal with the Chicago Bulls to send Shawn Kemp there for Scottie Pippen.

He was selected fifth overall in the 1987 NBA Draft by the Seattle SuperSonics, who immediately traded him to the Chicago Bulls for the eighth pick, Olden Polynice. The trade is regarded as a steal by the Bulls as Pippen would go on to become one of the Top 50 NBA players of all time. - From Wikipedia

to Dave P: Do you know how to read an entire post (the one I wrote a couple of blog entries ago)? What are you suggesting? Bavasi should not go for legitimate top-flight pitchers in the offseason? This is a goal, our most important need, and therefore our top offseason objective. The M's didn't succeed in this goal last year and we are again fading from the race.

Remember when the M's decided NOT to go after Dice K? It's mid-September. Let's compare pitching records:

Dice K: record 14-12, ERA 4.44, Innings pitched 184

What if he had been here instead of either:
Jeff Weaver: record 6-12, ERA 6.05, Innings pitched 125

HoRam: record 8-6, ERA 6.80, Innings pitched 98

Had the M's stepped up and played "hard ball" like the Red Sox to acquire Dice K, the M's bullpen would be more rested by either 59 or 86 innings and the M's would have hypothetically had 6 or 8 more victories. For a team that is currently six games out of the wildcard race, how significant would that one viable move have made for this team? With a legitimate #2 starter and a more rested bullpen, the M's would be in the playoff hunt. Is there another Dice-K out there this off-season? I don't know. Will the M's step up with what it will take to compete for top pitching? We will see.

cubby, you are lame and studid...go back to Chicago if it is so great...the Bears barely beat the Seahawks last year at home...keep in mind..QB injured all year..MVP runningback injured all year..we had a loan officer in the defensive backfield and you still could only handle us in OT...good luck with Grossman..your offense is pathetic..before I hear anything about 1985..that was 22 years ago..yes, m's are in no way the laughing stock of the league..I think the cubs take that title...even cub fans laugh at their ineptitude..can't wait till the Bears come to Qwest..fahq cubby

Wow, nice attack there, pdubsnow. I would complain to the Seattle Times but I don't want to bother. It's such a hassle. However, I've got a question for you: Do you happen to be a factory worker?

yeah, I work at a meat-packing plant in Chicago..don't be stupid..no, just think you are mis-informed about a lot of things..and say what you will about the Mariners (they speak for themselves) but I had to retort when you brought up the Seahawks (probably one of the best run franchises in the NFL, best stadium too)

Cubby, in the Sonics/Bulls deal the Sonics also picked up forward Derrick McKey (from a switching of draft choice Bulls included in the deal) Seattle also got the option of switching 1st round draft choices with them two years in a row. Of course, that proved worthless, as it turned out, because of what the Jordan/Pippen tandem were able to do together.
.
McKey was to the Sonics what Felix is to the Mariners now. Quite frustrating considering his talent level. The view was he was too tepid and soft to be the player they though he'd become. Eventually was traded away for Detlef Schremf, of UW Husky fame.
.
The scuttled Kemp/Pippen deal happened a few years later. I don't suppose you'll find anything on it, as it was pretty much "hot rumor". Call Mike Gastineau or David Grosby at KJR. They'll tell you all about it. They were right in the middle of it. Still, I wonder what a Scottie Pippen/Gary Payton combo could have accomplished for the Sonics?
.
Olden Polynice? A bust from the word go.
.
Back to the point, anyone who believes Seattle fans chase their stars out of town has it totally backwards.

Back to the point, anyone who believes Seattle fans chase their stars out of town has it totally backwards.

Nice post, Lance. For example: Welcome back Griffey (A-Rod's ego drove him away). Where does Lenny Wilkens still live? Hint: not Portland, Toronto, Atlanta, or Providence. [I for one think that Scottie Pippen excelled because of Michael Jordan and would have only been above average elsewhere. James Worthy excelled because of Magic Johnson. Milwaulkie won its only NBA title because Oscar Robertson was there to feed Kareem Abdul Jabbar.] Taking Olden Polynice over Pippen still doesn't compare to the Blazers taking Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.

I have been calling for Bavasi's head for the last 2 years on my blog, publically humiliating this guy for all the dumb moves he's made. He will go down in history as the worst GM in Seattle history.....Les Haggaber holds nothing on what this guy has done for the M's. Moreover, it's time to clear shop: get rid of the 2 headed tool monster of Howard Lincoln and Chuckie Armstrong

Bavasi is in a no-win situation here right now. The team's success next year depends almost entirely on bolstering the rotation, but the only way that will happen is through free agency. You might as well take your cash and set it on fire at that point (see Washburn, Jarrod; Batista, Miguel; Zito, Barry; etc.). And as far as trading for pitching talent, he's already proved completely incompetent at that. And the cupboard is bare in Tacoma.

Soooo ... what are all of you expecting next year? I wouldn't expect much different. You've got one pitcher who ostensibly should improve, three pitchers who will get worse than they already are, and a free agent hole where the suckfest that is Jeff Weaver used to be.


http://seattlesportsreport.wordpress.com

Cubby, huh?

You've also got to question his draft picks. Brandon Marrow over the local guy Timothy Lincecum, who has been lights out for the Giants and proven to be a top starting pitcher. Horrible, horrible, horrible decision again Bill the Boso Bavasi

This would be a great blog if fools like cubby would stick to the Disney websites. Seattle Sports Blog Guy, where can we join you in calling for Bavasi's head?

Our website is located at www.seattlesportsblog.com

We're at roughly 20,000 in little over a year of being live with loyal Seattle fans and growing.....

but I had to retort when you brought up the Seahawks (probably one of the best run franchises in the NFL, best stadium too) Posted by pdubsnow at 02:41 PM, Sep 13, 2007

But I find it amusing you were getting so sensitive about my little comment on how the Bears toyed with your Seahawks. Expect to see more of me on the Seahawks Blog. lol.

As for the stadium, there are several others that I can think of that are more beautiful and evenat uses real grass. My favorite is Dolphins Stadium in Miami. Invesco Field in Denver is another.

Yeah, you say you can't wait 'til the Bears come to Quest. Well, November 18th. We'll be there to watch and laugh as Brian Urlacher and the Chicago Bears knock the dainty Hasselbeck around a bit, loosen his fillings. LOL.

Antonetti is not proven, and in fact he's been under GM Shapiro during several questionable trades involving Brandon Phillips, Andy Marte, Josh Barfield. We would be seeing platoons of terrible players like Broussard and Sexson, and a lack of care for creating a great bullpen.

Terry Ryan is not the best player evaluator, however with the lifeblood of this franchise being our scouting department, Ryan would excel in Seattle like a duck to water. In my mind it's the perfect fit. He's patient with young players which is among many of Bavasi's weaknesses and understands that prospects are used to build the core of your team not veterans and free agents.

I find it hard to believe Bavasi can keep his job after three consecutive last place finishes. No GM in M's history has ever led the team to such a pathetic feat. The M's also could finish last if they continue to win 1 out of 10 games until the end of the month.

The scary thing with another year of Bavasi is a repeat of this season, which began at the end of last season wiht the "hot seat" declaration. By that I mean that the heat may have encouraged a "win now or else" mentality that might have motivated BB to sign veterans instead of doing what should have been done this season; finish the rebuild. Perfect example is the HoRam/Soriano trade. Soriano should have been kept, and that 5th spot should have been decided by several young pitchers duking it out is ST. The domino effect of consequences on that one is already there to be seen in Brandon Morrow, who should have been at Tacoma being groomed to be a starter (or trade bate for a free swingin over the hill strike outer, thats how it works in Bavasis hands, right). Hopefully this offseason they will figure out a way to finish the rebuild AND win. If we can keep both Wlad and AJ, The M's will begin to truly prosper no later than 09. So next year, keep a rotation spot open for a good AAA guy or Morrow, and try to improve the Left-Right hitters balance since safeco was supposedly built for lefties.

It's good to see Geoff address the real critical weakness of this team as starting pitching and to think about creative ways to address this weakness through free agency. Would I trade away Adam Jones, Clement, WVlad, Reed, etc to get Santana, Penny, AJ Burnett...yes sir...would I trade off valuable position players for a one year contract with Peavy, Burnett, Santana, Sheets...in hopes of signing him for something like $60M for 3-4 years? You bet! I'd trade off any position player except Ichiro, Betancourt, (grudgingly Beltre, or Johjima) and I trade any pitcher but Felix, Putz, Morrow, and Lowe (grudgingly RS, Eric O). And I would try to get two of them....for any six of ours...and make up a team with what was left over. Give me Burnett, Sheets, Hernandez, Batista, and Jorge Campillo, with a bull pen of Putz, Morrow, Lowe, RS, and Eric O Flattery) Give me Ichiro, Betancourt, Beltre, Johjima, and I'll start Brossard, Morse, in the infield, Reed, Ichiro, and Guillen in the outfield and watch me win some ballgames..