geoff.. it was on the cw channel 11. not fsn. details are important on this historic night!!! thank God it's football season!!!

Well, it was on FSN here in Alaska.

I watched it in beautiful MLBTV 700 kb/s splendor on my laptop from work in L.A. The Angels are playing on FSN in the background here and it's 0-0 in the top of the fifth. Ervin Man-crush Santana is locked in a pitcher's duel with C.C. Sabathia.

Geoff...any thoughts on why this has happened? I've never seen such a promising season go down the drain so quickly. There must be some reason why this happened. No one seems to have a solid answer.

Strange. What are the odds we finish with a winning record?

I bet Mike Hargrove is glad he got out when he did!

Hey Geoff - do you think Howard Lincoln is heating up the "hot seat(s)" once again?

Looks like it is time to let the kids from AAA play tomorrow.

Honestly - isn't this the team that Mariners fans were worried would show up all along? The starting pitching is NOT good (and arguably overachieved through the first 125 games). Bullpen pitched AS GOOD as possible for 125 and probably was never as good as it seemed. I don't know what to say about the offence - seems to have run dry of late. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Mariners fan up here in Vancouver, BC, but it's fully possible the team was never as good as it seemed......it's so disappointing though.

Okay. Time for a major overhaul.

It's obvious that this team needs to start over. It has NO starting pitching and the offense only produces if everyone produces. Nobody on this team scares anyone.

The head of Bill Bavasi should be called and demanded for. He built a team that cannot compete and has no heart. He has saddled it with the payroll weight of the likes of Richie Sexson.

McClaren has also shown that he does not know how to motivate. Yes, it's unfair of him to have been thrown into the mix halfway into the season....but that doesn't matter. This is the major leagues. A manager has to be able to motivate. He obviously can't.

On a separate note....now what a waste it is that Brandon Morrow spent the season up here throwing out of the bullpen? He has Rich Harden type of stuff and if he had spent the season at Tacoma becoming a starting pitcher we would have a good idea who would be one of our starting pitchers next year.

Also....Bavasi should apologize to the entire Mariner organization and its fans for giving Rafael Soriano away for Horacio Ramirez. What a joke. He should be ashamed of himself. It was a self serving move that has added to the embarrassment of the last two weeks.

Finally, if I hear one more person say "well, nobody expected us to be in the position we were in anyway" I think I'll puke. That's what losers say. We had this thing in the bag and they squandered it. That does not make the final results of the season a success. It makes it humiliating.

Oh well. Go Seahawks. Go Huskies. The baseball season is over. Time to move on.

By the way....I will not be renewing my season tickets next season. This team's refusal to make the changes required at the trading deadline show me that they don't know how to run a baseball team. They are terrible managers of payroll and are now taking advantage of us fans. It's as if they think that if they put at least a little competition out there then we'll keep showing up and buying their $7 beers. Screw them.

Sure...I'll still attend games next year. But I won't be giving the M's several thousand dollars of my money as I've done for the past 4 years. Sorry. They don't get to have it. They had their chance. I'll buy the bleacher seats or watch on t.v. until they get their act together.

This whole organization needs to be revamped. Where's the fight? Where's the anger? Where's the willingness and desire to win at whatever cost?

Actually, I know where it is......it's managing the Cubs.

What a joke.

Geoff...What you're doing is not cool nor does it make sense. It seems that you're defining the analysis to produce the results you want to see.

Why don't you look at all teams that were within one game of the division lead -- you'll probably find more teams that fit the description.

This is not to diminish the fact that the Mariners are falling apart at the seams, and no one seems to have a clue how to pull it all together again. Such a sad state of affairs is definitely cause for a Stalinist purge of the front office and dugout.

I worry not...I'm an Angel fan in LA who finds the Mariner cardiac arrest pure comedy.

Well, the people who said the M's were over-achieving will be gloating if they haven't already. The pythag people (saber people) will be gloating (if they haven't already) to show their theory is right -- and will continue throughout time to use M's as an example. The Angels are gloating I'm sure. And then at the end of the season when Bavasi and McLaren are retained (they will be exonerated of blame), the gloating will turn to laughter. I don't know if I can endure next year.

I'd almost be more mad if they started winning now, after having already blown any playoff chances. I would feel like, "What, you couldn't have done that two weeks ago?"

g, I can't speak for all saber people, but at least all the ones I know are not and will not gloat. We're M fans, and we spent the season fearing this would happen, not hoping it would.

Unless this team makes some major changes in the off-season, I just can't care this much about them again. I'll still watch their games, because I love baseball and they're the games available to me, but I won't get sucked into caring if they win or lose. I'd rather follow the Dodgers long distance.

That's where all that bargain-basement pitching gets you. When you settle for pitchers that are, for lack of a better term, cast away by other teams, you shouldn't be surprise when they start getting hit and eventually unravel. This offseason, we need to unload Sexson, plan on moving Brousard to first, move Raul to DH, Jones to the outfield, use Vidro as an occassional starter/DH, and pick up some decent pitching and actually spend money on a legit ace or #2 starter.

I have to agree with oregangal - nothing to gloat about here. However a LOT of us must have been worried this would happen at some point - but would never HOPE for it.

By the way, Weaver is a joke.

Geoff....looks like my pregame score prediction of 11-4 was pretty accurate. This downfall is the biggest joke in all of sports right now....only a team out of Seattle is capable of such disaster. Even the '94 Sonics are laughing at this one...

This is exactly what the doctor ordered! When players agent A or B goes into negotiate his contract at the end of this season - all you have do do is pull out these series of games and say - now what did you do? Now we have to worry about being passed by those A's! The front office wants the kids to play. Play those kids. Of course the front office will be not be back after the season - not just for this collapse, but for the misuse of team assets. We just did not get good value for the money. Weaver. Rhodes. White. Richie. Nothing personal. Baseball is a business. Bye-bye BB. McL was thrown in the deep end and drown. In 100 years of stats - the Seattle Mariners own the record for biggest collapse of a good team (20+). This is 1995 all over but we are on the wrong end of the story.

Felix did it last time. Can he do it tomorrow? We did get some hitting tonight.

the angels sweeping the M's underminded the team's confidence and ability to see themselves as winners.

Looks like I won't need to be eatting my hat
this year afterall.

Since moving away from Seattle--for the 2nd time in my life---in 2001, I did not much follow the Mariners after they choked in the 2001 playoffs after winning 116 games. I only started getting really interested about June of this year, and as I began to pay attention, I read something--don't remember where---that indicated that Bavasi would have spent some money and used some prospects at the trading deadline, but did not think even by doing so, the club would have a shot to even make the playoffs, let alone win--the idea being not sacrificing future prospects and future greater glory for a shot at a possbile playoff spot that would probably end in a first round loss anyway. I don't know if that is true or not, but if so, I feel as a fan that we have been taken advantage of and used. I was as surprised as anyone when we were still only a game out with a week to go in August, and thought maybe, just maybe we did have the horses to do it...guess I was wrong, and it is too bad, because it sure was fun while it lasted. Now. with the Yankees 5 games ahead, Detroit 2 ahead in the WC, and we can't get runs or pitching together on the same night, it looks more than bleak.

Good evaluation by Mike....This team was 12 outs from tieing for first place in game three in Texas...In one week it fell out of the division race. In the next week it has lost the lead in the WC race. Next it had Detroit move past it while it fell out of the WC race. In the next two weeks we could easily see Oakland move past us...and even Texas...We look like a dead cinch to drop at least four out of six the rest of the way. No eight to nine inning starters...none...only one guy with dominant potential-Felix
No starting pitching...they are all punching bags by the sixth inning...No more castoff veteran pitchers pulled out of the scrap heap for this team....please...go with some young guys if you have to....or spend money for a prime age prime time guy who can show us how it is done. Forget big contracts for position players....get us some pitcher that can go 7-9 innings every five days to rest this bullpen...some stud....you know who the names are...guys who get tougher as the year goes on...cause they do their work and they are professionals...not lard asses like Rick White who isn't close to being in shape...or junk ball cotton ball throwers like Weaver and Ramirez....and yes even Washburn...enough....

Yes, I agree with what DC had to say up there. I'd take it further by saying Lincon, Armstrng, Bavasi, and McLaren all need to have their butts fired.

Sexon needs to go. I hate watching him not produce offensively (other than homeruns) and then have to sit and watch him whine and moan and bitch and complain when he strike out, which seems to happen alot.

Beltre's defense is ok, but was definately over paid. They paid him based upon his 2004 numbers, and NOT his career numbers. Other than 2004 Beltre never hit over 28 homeruns a season and never hit over .280, or .290. SO, he hasn't been a bust based upon his career numbers, but is based on his '04 numbers. Mariners management and ownership needs to learn how to spend money. They need to learn who should get the big money and who shouldn't. Beltre shouldn't have been awarded the contract he was, but that's typical Mariners for you under the Lincoln-Armstrong era. Beltre is ok, and I'd like him to stay for his defense, but he shouldn't get big money for his offensive numbers, because his offensife numbers (other than 2004) are mediocre at the very, very best.

Overall, Mariners Management and even some meber of ownership (HOWARD LINCOLN especially) need to be let go. The thinking needs to change. They need to have a qinning attitude, not an attituted that only cares about how much money the owners take home at the end of the day. Wiining teams and teams with winning attitudes do lose money everynow and then. They don't lose it to often, or lose to much of it, but they do lose money because they do occasionally take risks, unlike this group of good for nothing do do heads that's running the Mariners Organization now.

Lincoln and Armstrong should be fired, but they won't. Maybe if we actually had a person as an owner instead of a company. We have no one with higher power than Armstrong and Lincoln who actually cares about this team. It sucks.

Damn, the Huskies are looking good. Locker is going to be one of the great ones. A natural leader. Perfect timing, too bad they only play once a week.
Well said DC, I agree with you 100%. And I'm glad you're giving up those tickets. That's the only thing that will get the owner's attention. I really think next year is shaping up to be a disaster if they maintain the status quo. They need to get a whole new front office, throw the year away and bottom out. See how many of these kids can play. If the veterans don't like it..TOUGH. Get rid of them.
Adam Jones should be in that lineup tomorrow and he should play every game for the rest of the year. To not do so would be a travesty. I think he can be a Curtis Granderson type..double figures in every extra base category. Speed, Defense. What a shame he sits on the bench when he could be getting needed experience.

Attendance figures at the upcoming Tampa Bay series should be interesting. Even if tickets were sold, have to believe there might be lots of no-shows.

You said it Dave, that Angel's series killed them. They were too busy worrying about taking a game lead that they forgot to win it inning by inning, out by out, what a joke! I am living down here in Astros land but my heart will always stay true to the Northwest Teal and Blue!

As a believer in the value of sabermetrics, I can assure you that none of us find any joy in being right about this team. But there is consolation in the fact that in their overachieving, they did give us something we haven't seen in a few years -- a pennant race. It's time to start thinking about next year and the prospects are frightening. Bavasi will commit his resources to improving the starting pitching. Since every team out there wants that, and seeing that no one of worth will be available, his only option will be to gamble and overpay that he can find a pitcher who will pull a Bret Boone and suddenly have his career years after severe injury or mediocrity.

My best guess is that Bavasi will drastically overpay (because the market will demand it) for someone like Dontrelle Willis -- since no one will want him -- and hope that all the scouts and GMs who believe he is washed up are wrong. Bavasi will overpay with something like Balentein and Clement and take that gamble because he has no other choice. Those of us who follow the minors will weep and gnash our teeth, while those who don't really care about prospects and love name recognition will hail it as a great move.

They will pay Guillen and give him his 3 years because no bat on the market will be as good as his. We will dump Richie, as well we should, but once again will have a big big hole at cleanup.

Let fans never again mention this team in comparison to the '95 M's. It was painful to hear that comparison but since us sabermetrics were getting our arses handed to us up until two weeks ago we had to remain silent. It was a disgraceful comparison to those 4 primary great hitters on the '95 team, and Big Unit.

The offseason nears, and this is where it is time to be afraid. Very afraid...

A sobering thought from Bill James, the father of sabermetrics.

See point #14, http://baseball1.com/bb-data/bbd-bj1.html: When a team improves sharply one season they will almost always decline in the next.

what a sad outcome to an otherwise promising season...

Get rid of Sexson.

Go out and find some quality starting pitching.

Make Jones a full time player.

Get rid of Bavasi.

Also, I wonder if Ichiro is kicking himself for re-signing. Times were good two months ago...times are not so good now and will not be for the foreseeable future.

This team needs a complete overhaul. The past two weeks are embarrassing.

Oh and btw, don't worry about the bullpen. Kam Mickolio will have his shot and I suspect he will do quite well in seattle in relief setting up Putz. The problem is a solid #2 and #3 SP (and Jeff Weaver is NOT part of the solution there) and a cleanup hitter. And Jose Lopez...

Being a firm believer of scouting, I recall sabermetrics predicted Jose Vidro would be horrific and that groundball pitchers Miguel Batista and Horacio Ramirez would benefit from the M's infield defense.

Sabermetrics was wrong. Jose Vidro has been a .300 hitter in the line-up and Batista and H-Ram have been disasters.

WaitTilNextYearHuh: When a team improves sharply one season they will almost always decline in the next.

What about when they do BOTH improve sharply and decline in one season?????????????????

from BWare: "Geoff...What you're doing is not cool nor does it make sense. It seems that you're defining the analysis to produce the results you want to see."

On this one, I don't think GEOFF can be faulted for trying to express, statistically, the sheer magnitude of this collapse. MLBaseball teams usually play within a win-loss threshold of .600 to .400, and here was a team pushing the upper end of that range entering the most critical part of its schedule. For that winning team to win .071 percent of its next 14 games is mindboggling. There is no danger of imbalance or hyperbole in describing this debacle. Let 'er rip, GEOFF...

Take a picture of this debacle and this is what will happen next year if dictator Chuck Armstrong, and GM Bill Bavasi along with his helpers; John Boles, Lee Pelekoudas, Dan Evans, Bart Waldman and John McLaren, are retained for the 2008 season.

God forbid they bring in any more sabermetricians like Mat Olkin to help out the next GM in player evaluations.

A few thoughts;

Does anyone actually believe Bavasi will be offered a contract?

Ditto McLaren?

Given that tough starting pitchers are ALWAYS at a premium, why would any quality pitcher want to pitch all the way over here (away from much of the action) and for a team that will probably not have the pieces to contend?

The current situation is not only embarrassing and sad but I think there are serious repercussions for the immediate future (next year).

Just my 2 cents.

A few thoughts;

Does anyone actually believe Bavasi will be offered a contract?

Ditto McLaren?

Given that tough starting pitchers are ALWAYS at a premium, why would any quality pitcher want to pitch all the way over here (away from much of the action) and for a team that will probably not have the pieces to contend?

The current situation is not only embarrassing and sad but I think there are serious repercussions for the immediate future (next year).

Just my 2 cents.

Resin - if batting average is the only metric you are going to use to judge the quality of a hitter, then please apply for the job of GM of the Angels because I'd love to see you destroy that lineup.

Sabermetricians never predicted that Batista and Ramirez would be good pitchers, that is the only thing that anyone should remember. Frankly, Batista has been better on the M's than he should be, but since he sucked coming in, there was no defense that was going to turn him into Santana. Horam never should have been in the major leagues to begin with.

Sorry for the double post, this is my first time posting

This situation reminds me of what the angels went thru a few years ago. Bavasi was the gm and bob fontaine was the scouting director, their teams did not fair too well and bavasi was fired, after he was fired the angels went on to win a world series and be in the playoffs for three consecutive years. The angels were built for their 2002 world series by bavasi and fontaine and others, but those were the two guys who built that team.
I would be wanting a team built by these two guys.
Granted bavasi has made some moves that were questionable, but with the market the way it was, this team was pretty much was was available for the prices that they were willing to spend.
The real question will be in a few years when the drafted players are ready to stepup and deliver in the big leagues

I do agree about Olkin, but I wonder how much they listen to his theories about defensive range since Raul and Guillen are out there.

I just moved to Santa Cruz, California from Vancouver, Washington. As I watch the Mariners completely ruin 126 games of hard work, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only guy screaming, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?!?" I'm just the only guy with 700 miles. Ugh, I hate proximity to the Angels.

I haven't watched more than two innings in a week after watching nearly every game all year, and I have to tell you, it feels great!

Huskies are 2-0, Seahawks start tomorrow, and KD will be in Seattle at least for one year, so I suggest you all give these Mariners the attention they deserve (as evidenced by their play and their Manager's "oh well, we'll be ready tomorrow" attitude) and tune out until the hot stove heats up.

Sorry Geof, I'm guessing the blog numbers will be dropping along with the M's, maybe you could help out Condotta with his Huskies blog?

AKMariner

How do you think I feel, Brad, only 20 miles away? But everyone down here pays attention mostly to the Los Angeles Dodgers of Los Angeles, not the Los Angeles Angels of Orange County

Time to end the Weaver experiment and release him. He should been pulled after the fourth inning of this game. He has been dreadful his last four or five starts.

I also am really beginning to wonder about McClaren. Bringing in Sean White in the 7th with the bases loaded makes no sense. The guy has walked 17 in 26 innings and hasn't pitched much all year...how about Morrow in that situation..

Time to give Rowland Smith, Fierabend or Campillo Weavers next start.

Baseball is a game of symmetry;in this case cosmic symmetry.

Safeco is the House that Bavasi Built, since he was the GM for the 95 Angels and their collapse of historic proportions.

That makes two of the top five team collapses in history a direct result of Bill Bavasi's brand of 'Alien' ball.

how's that for some cosmic symmetry?

I'd love it if nobody whatsoever was in the stands for the Ms remaining home games. Maybe a complete fan boycott of Safeco for the rest of the season might get the attention of management, or failing that, the ownership.

If Safeco is as packed as usual with fans doing the wave, soliciting Rally Fries and cheering on the Diamondvision hydro racing, this is the level of team we'll see again next year.

I'm well aware of the fact that I'm opening up the floodgates upon myself, but HOLYFREAKINGCRAP(!), the negativity and cynicism surrounding a team still playing well over .500 on the season and 3 games removed from a WC birth is out of hand. And like it or not, the team HAS still absolutely and unquestionably overacheived on the season... I'll be impressed by anyone who can point me to a respected publication that was calling for the M's to be playing meaningful games well into September. I was seeing them almost universally being projected to finish in 4th, behind lowly Texas.

Full disclosure: I just couldn't believe the rant I read from Kayla who called this collapse the "biggest joke in all of sports right now".

Unfortunately, as a Pittsburgh native and dedicated Pirates fan who is faithfully following the 16th consecutive (I believe, though it may actually be 17- please don't quote me) losing season, I've gotta say that you all don't know what ineptitude and laughing-stock franchises are all about.

Yeah- I wholeheartedly agree that this sucks, Mac is doing a pretty piss-poor job of justifying any degree of long term faith in him. And Bavasi... well, I don't know... I can also certainly understand that there's frustration over some of his moves, though it can't be denied he did build the team that has me (unexpectedly, by any reasonable measure) watching meaningful games this late in the season for the first time in as long as I can remember and he also did get Ichiro signed, against some pretty formidable odds.

If it makes anyone feel any better, Pittsburgh just yesterday fired Dave Littlefield as GM (just in time too, as I'm sure he was probably getting ready to tender a free agency offer to ol' Rick White), who will be on the market.

I guess I just really do think it's easy to lose some perspective. Except when discussing Sexson, of course, who should be loaded onto the next space shuttle mission, preferrably one to Mars.

I think McLaren might have stumbled onto his solution in that blowout loss to the Yanks....start all the kids...all of them. Let's see some young players with energy, heart, and desire to prove themselves.

Hang in there Matsuricow! The season isn't over...who's to say we can't catch up with Texas? We ought to move past Oakland next week and we have a couple of weeks left to catch Texas...I have moved past disappointment, dispair, anger, and seething to astonishment and marvel as I witness this historic season! This is looking like a collapse of such magnitude that it will be studied and commented upon for years to come. This is like watching Ed Harris in "The Abyss", "always knew this was a one way trip", or Jules Verne's "Journey to the Center of the Earth"or the opening train wreck in "The Fugitive. I've never seen anything like this. Everyday takes us to new levels, makes this season more special, I hope they continue to run the big fella out there....Richie has a legitimate shot to make 14 million for batting 199...He is the crown jewel of this astonishing team!

No more blame game. Lights out on this season. They're not even playing for honor anymore. Look forward to trying again next year. You can't hold out hope forever. Go huskies!

What amazes me is that ownership tolerates this ineptitude year after year after year. This organization needs to be totally dismantled starting at the top. Anything less than a complete overhaul, starting with top management is inadequate. If they can't make the necessary changes, they should sell the damn team. I have followed the M's from a distance religiously for 30 years, but have never been as appalled as I am this year.

Bob Melvin, in retrospect, must be thrilled that Bavasi canned him. He seems to have landed on his feet quite nicely with the D-Backs, and may very well end up in the World Series this year for the 2nd time. This is a franchise that has only existed for 10 years.

I want to see an empty SAfeco field on Monday and show Lets showThese ownship group how much we disapprove about their free fall. The Ownership group will not do a thing unless they are losing Money. The Mariners will not win another game until Bavasi is fired. Bavasi is a joke and soo is Maclaren Fire them both. Mclaren is now 5 games under 500 since taking over for Hargrove. I think the team has given up playing for them. I seriesly think Oakland maybe Texas could catch us by the season end. The Mariners will finish the season in 4th place just like Bavasi wants. Bavasi and Mclaren have wrecked the Mariners adn its too bad I thought the Mariners would win the division but no ot was just a tease By Bavasi. Any Manager is better than Bench coach Mclaren. I think the mariners would be a better team with Hargrove but not much better though. GO SEahawks

At least Bavasi/McLaren's jobs are on the line again (hopefully) and there is a slight chance we could have more competent management in the future to correct the comedy of errors that set us up for this collapse. McLaren's bullpen management is atrocious, and the Parrish/White fiasco's are just more of the same from Bavasi.

Had to have a chuckle reading DC's comments.

Where have you rube's been?

Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln have never known how to properly run a winning baseball franchise.

This club has been living off a baseball palace for years, and people like DC keep handing over thousands of dollars hand over fist.

You just now realized that an orginization that claims Randy Johnson is done 10 years, 17 Cy Youngs and a World Series championship early might have a few flaws?

They've let this Bavasi schmuck - the Barbara Hedges of SODO - run the team into the ground.

After Lou left, they're choices to manage the club have been cheap, uninspired and easy.

They trot out dancing groundskeepers and ban Yankees Suck T-Shirts in an effort to peddle family-oriented fun to suburban suckers and dissapear to count their cash as the team shows up at 7:05 every night to make fools of themselves.

I'm glad DC has finally seen the light, and I can only hope more start refusing to feed these pigs.

If you don't take winning seriously, you don't deserve to own a franchise.

Just because you have an epic setting in which to present a subpar product doesn't make the bottom line to real fans any less important: WIN!

Sabermetrics Vs. Scouting is an argument that the majority of intelligent baseball fans acknowledge isn't necessary. It's not one or another. Together they help give a pretty accurate picture of a particular player's talents, abilities and projectable skills. No need to wage that outdated war when we can all just keep watching the games with our best car crash face.

Pardon me, one or the other.

Geoff, are you sure it will be a long time before we witness a collapse of this magnitude again? I'm thinking it may be real soon, like tomorrow. Or more likely the day after as Felix will probably pitch at least a decent game and give the team a chance to win one here.


Too little, too late though.


Did anyone happen to notice if Dr. Kevorkian was among the call ups? We need someone to put the M's out of their misery!

Anyone who hasn't done so yet needs to head over to Lookout Landing and read Jeff's blog post about the losing streak. He pretty much sums it all up for us.

I hate to say i told you so, but i will anyway. 3-4 weeks ago i stated that Johnny Mac was not qualified to be a manager and was in way over his head. This historic slide into the toilet should be the final straw. Now i am advocating that the whole front office, not just Boovasi should be replaced. If "don't have a clue" Mac is not fired, the Ms will be in last place in 08 for sure.

Dump Mac and Boovasi at the end of the season or you will see a drop in attendance of historic numbers in 08. Book it, Dano!

I am frustrated here, and I'VE HAD IT! The M's are committing baseball hari-kari here...although it's only been TWO WEEKS, these last two weeks have seemed really L-O-N-G for the Seattle Mariners, and for their fans (what's left of them); the team has virtually succeeded in achieving some form of instant mediocrity, which might actually not be all that mediocre after all, since you have to do something really special in order to turn a really good season into a tragicomical travesty with a relatively few swings of the bat. Run production is down, the starting pitching all of a sudden can't make it halfway through the game, the 'staff ace' only wins once in a while, and the relievers ain't givin' the team any relief. The new manager is at a loss for any kind of explanation, and all of this is beginning to make former skipper Mike Hargrove look like a sage for the ages, deciding to abandon ship when he did, WHILE THE TEAM WAS STILL WINNING. And now, the M's have lost 13 of the last 14 games. The only time they've won in the last two weeks was when they whipped up on battered old washed-up pitcher Roger Clemens of the Yankees last week. Sad, huh?

Hargrove must have foreseen impending doom and disaster as he gazed in his crystal ball, or had mysterious forces guiding his hand on the Ouija board, telling him, "Mike, in order to save face and avoid eternal damnation, you must quit NOW." He had the last laugh, though. You see, he evidently had difficulties with Ichiro. Ichiro was in the final year of his contract, and no one knew if he'd re-sign with the team. Hargrove left. Ichiro re-signed. (no cause-effect relationship there, huh?) And it is obviously Ichiro's Ouija board that's not working, for Ichiro's new deal guarantees him that, as a Mariner, he won't be anywhere NEAR any kind of championship for at least the next several Presidential terms.

Listen, I am no fair-weather fan. I have stuck by the Mariners since 1997, thru thick and thin, listening to virtually every game (in which I have constantly been irritated by sportscaster Rick Rizzs and his breathless mind-numbing deluge of constant ceaseless blather, trivia and factoids which make me wanna dropkick my radio), but I am beginning to think that Seattle, especially in the world of baseball, is where good players and coaches go to die, or to wallow forever in the murky depths of cesspool residue generated by the dregs of America's National Pastime. Anymore, when I tune in a Mariners' game, I'm looking for yet another new way for them to lose yet another game. A missed catch, perhaps. Or a baserunning error. And in that regard, I am NEVER disappointed anymore.

Something about Seattle just keep sports teams, especially BASEBALL teams, from reaching any kind of enduring, or fleeting, success.. It must be in the water, or the coffee, or maybe there are spurious gas emissions from the nearby active Mt. Rainier volcano that get into the air and somehow screw things up in sports teams' brain waves. I don't know what else it could be. And I am just about ready to QUIT being a fan. I don't care if the team actually WINS a championship; what I DO want from the Mariners is some sort of RESPECTABILITY, some VALIDITY, some PURPOSE, and year after year after decade after century after eon after epoch of bumbling and stumbling, I EXPECT BETTER. And it ain't happenin'! It's too late for this season. I wouldn't be surprised if the M's fall all the way back to the .500 mark. At the start of this losing skid, they were only 20-games over! Sheesh!

(this is from my blog, but I wanted to post it here just in case any great minds from Mariners management happen to run...or stumble...across it)

I am frustrated here, and I'VE HAD IT! The M's are committing baseball hari-kari here...although it's only been TWO WEEKS, these last two weeks have seemed really L-O-N-G for the Seattle Mariners, and for their fans (what's left of them); the team has virtually succeeded in achieving some form of instant mediocrity, which might actually not be all that mediocre after all, since you have to do something really special in order to turn a really good season into a tragicomical travesty with a relatively few swings of the bat. Run production is down, the starting pitching all of a sudden can't make it halfway through the game, the 'staff ace' only wins once in a while, and the relievers ain't givin' the team any relief. The new manager is at a loss for any kind of explanation, and all of this is beginning to make former skipper Mike Hargrove look like a sage for the ages, deciding to abandon ship when he did, WHILE THE TEAM WAS STILL WINNING. And now, the M's have lost 13 of the last 14 games. The only time they've won in the last two weeks was when they whipped up on battered old washed-up pitcher Roger Clemens of the Yankees last week. Sad, huh?

Hargrove must have foreseen impending doom and disaster as he gazed in his crystal ball, or had mysterious forces guiding his hand on the Ouija board, telling him, "Mike, in order to save face and avoid eternal damnation, you must quit NOW." He had the last laugh, though. You see, he evidently had difficulties with Ichiro. Ichiro was in the final year of his contract, and no one knew if he'd re-sign with the team. Hargrove left. Ichiro re-signed. (no cause-effect relationship there, huh?) And it is obviously Ichiro's Ouija board that's not working, for Ichiro's new deal guarantees him that, as a Mariner, he won't be anywhere NEAR any kind of championship for at least the next several Presidential terms.

Listen, I am no fair-weather fan. I have stuck by the Mariners since 1997, thru thick and thin, listening to virtually every game (in which I have constantly been irritated by sportscaster Rick Rizzs and his breathless mind-numbing deluge of constant ceaseless blather, trivia and factoids which make me wanna dropkick my radio), but I am beginning to think that Seattle, especially in the world of baseball, is where good players and coaches go to die, or to wallow forever in the murky depths of cesspool residue generated by the dregs of America's National Pastime. Anymore, when I tune in a Mariners' game, I'm looking for yet another new way for them to lose yet another game. A missed catch, perhaps. Or a baserunning error. And in that regard, I am NEVER disappointed anymore.

Something about Seattle just keep sports teams, especially BASEBALL teams, from reaching any kind of enduring, or fleeting, success.. It must be in the water, or the coffee, or maybe there are spurious gas emissions from the nearby active Mt. Rainier volcano that get into the air and somehow screw things up in sports teams' brain waves. I don't know what else it could be. And I am just about ready to QUIT being a fan. I don't care if the team actually WINS a championship; what I DO want from the Mariners is some sort of RESPECTABILITY, some VALIDITY, some PURPOSE, and year after year after decade after century after eon after epoch of bumbling and stumbling, I EXPECT BETTER. And it ain't happenin'! It's too late for this season. I wouldn't be surprised if the M's fall all the way back to the .500 mark. At the start of this losing skid, they were only 20-games over! Sheesh!

(this is from my blog, but I wanted to post it here just in case any great minds from Mariners management happen to run...or stumble...across it)

Why is this happening to us now? Allow me to explain. I have feared the downfall of this team all season for a number of different reasons. The offense has been very sparatic all season as we all know, the starting pitching has been average at best all season. (Not to take anything away from the flashes of brilliance that each starter has displayed at least twice this year) The glue that held this thing together all season was the pen. Our starters would give up 4 or 5 and couldnt get out of the 6th and the pen would pitch the second half of a ballgame. I would be curious to know how many games our bullpen has had to take over in the 6th inning or earlier.
With all that being said, the pen is TIRED. They cant get anybody out because they were overworked all year. Our starting pitching is not good enough to compensate and our offense now needs to put up 9 runs a game just to keep it close. I dont think it helps much that this team has had to sacrifice days off to make up for the snow out in cleveland. That's 3 days off that this team could have really used. You can say that Cleveland fought the same battle and came out fine, but they dont live in the northwest. The m's annually rack up more frequent flyer miles than any other team in probably any other sport.
All of these elements combined against them just when things looked like they were about to get very exciting. It's sad and it breaks my heart, but those are the facts of life. I don't know that you can throw blame on anybody for circumstance. Maybe Hargrove and Mcclarren for mismanagement of the pen early on? But then again, how well would we have done early on if they hadnt gone to the pen so quick?
We had a fun ride this year, and unfortunately it has come to a shreiking halt. Hopefully next year we can add the final one or two pieces to this club that can help us compete for the full season instead of 5/6 of it. I'm out

Jeff-Defender of Sabermetrics,

Batting average is not the only metric I use to evaluate players. I have a John McLaren gut-instinct you think it's okay for saberheads to use the flawed OPS in evaluating players. And by your opposition to my Vidro comment I can only assume you believe a player hitting .300 for the year is a failure.

Yes, please sign me up to that invigorating analysis. And you called Geoff's analysis lazy?

I could link you a popular sabermetric-laden site that used Ichiro's batting average as the lone metric measure in defending paying Suzuki $17 million a year in deferred payments until 2032. But that double standard might be too much to take. You might actually then start questioning Win Shares to your peers and start sliding down the slippery slope of scouting and using raw statistics.

I'll apply for the GM position as you suggested right after you apply as new sabermetrics consultant for this blog.

Good one, Resin,ROFL.

I have to agree with Dump Mac up above. Booovasi has to go along with Mac. Both of their screw ups have been explained in detail. But i have to say I have never in watching baseball for over 35 years seen a manager this far out of his depth. Mac really is not a leader or motivator and has no idea how to do anything different than to stick with what "works". Well, that plan sunk the Ms and i really hope it runs him out of town the day the season is over.

Mariners were killed by 5 things

1. Umpires who are either on the take or are so incompetent that they have no business being in the big leagues.

Someone needs to look into those guys.

2. Whoever was dumb enough to pull back Sexson after the Tigers were foolish enough to claim him and his freaking salary off the waiver wire.

3. Whatever is ailing Jose Lopez to make him play like he's recovering from an overdose. Too much partying? Not enough conditioning? It's tough to buy the bereavement excuse unless that's what's caused him to party too much or whatever, which leaves him with less concentration than a drowsy toddler.

4. Carlos Garcia's incompetence at crucial moments. Extreme momentum changers. Too many on the M's are not mentally robust enough to shake it off. Looking over the players we have, maybe only Ichiro clears the mark. Easily in his case btw.

5. Ho-Ram, Rick White, Reitsma, and all the garbage foisted on to the team by Bavasi and his freaking ego. He has to act the nice guy to the other GMs. Ridiculous.

Tom C, let's not forget about the 6th and biggest reason the M's were killed- Hargrove the quiter! He could light a fire under these guys. My suggestion is that they all contract some tropical disease and forfeit a game or two to get their heads right. Fire McLaren and hire Baker TODAY, (Why should we worry about tinkering with chemistry, it sucks anyway?)! It would be nice to at least finish with a winning record, which by the way is becoming less and less of a reality as the days go by!

Another point regarding the umpires in the Yankees and Angels (now Detroit) series.

Is it possible in some way to open up crooked umpires to a criminal investigation?

It would seem likely that if all past and present emails of those umpires were revealed, there would be some dirt in it.

Or at least there is a basis to make such an investigation and verify if that (wrongdoing) is the case or not.

Crooked umpires (and those higher up that possibly give out the orders, wink+nudge whatever) are at least as bad for the game as steroids, since they are basically rigging the games.

I hope those dirtbags (if they are) understand that people will eventually come after them and they will be disgraced and hopefully be sent to jail.

Houston M's Fan

I'm not sure that Hargrove had such a big effect. I agree that "Grover on the hot seat" managed the best that he ever had during his years here, but I think it's hard to say that he was a great manager.

And Grover was playing for a win in the shortest term (with bullpen moves being his strongest suit), but this could have lead to what we are seeing now, namely the bullpen being burned out from over-use.

But in any case the big blame goes to Bavasi for picking up that trash mentioned earlier and not getting any credible pitching help.

I agree fully with what you say that it would be nice having a winning season (or much better) after these couple years! Hope they can dig themselves out of this hole and get running again.

After many years of being a season ticket holder I have decided no more $$ down the drain only for the higher ups to ignore the fans and bring in subpar players while they count their money and likely chuckle around the "counting table" how they continue to dupe the Seattle fans. Never again or at least for sometime will I give that organization ONE PENNY and if they don't clean house - i.e. McLaren, Bavasi, Sexson and others - I will actively boycott the M's and encourage others to do so as well. Empty seats may speak wonders! Seattle fans and taxpayers have paid for Safeco and should be able to get the message to the phantom owners that they best pay attention to those who shell out the bucks so they can vacation in Tahiti while the local folks watch players who are true castaways. The whole organization is a BIG JOKE and they're (the owners) are laughing all the way to the bank.

To AKMariner....

I'm with you man. I watched every game this year and was at the game and on my feet cheering when they took the field for the 1st game (Monday night) against the Angels. I've tivo'd every game and spent hours watching on t.v. (all the while tolerating Dave Sims as our new announcer - although sometimes he's so bad I just turn the sound off).

That behavior stopped about a week ago. Yesterday I watched Oregon destroy Michigan and took in a bunch of Nascar. Today's menu will be watching the Seahawks. I turned on the M's game in the top of the 9th and 15 seconds later it was off. I won't watch it today. I might check the Mariner score online later tonight. My wife asked me if the baseball season was over. She's so used to us having the game on the radio or on television. She asked, "Doesn't the season last until October?" I guess I better be careful or she might think I have more time on my hands to do yardwork.

Anyway....it has helped my psyche tremendously over the last few days to have basically stopped paying attention. You can't have your expectations and hopes dashed if you don't get them set too high to begin with...although, I think expecting a win every few days shouldn't be too much to ask.

The ball/strike calling by umpires has been terrible all year. Amazingly terrible. Virtually every umpire seems to have a very small horizontial strike zone coupled with tendency to call anything above the waist a ball. However, the Mariners suffer more as they tend to swing early in the count and at anything close. Most other teams seem to wait out close pitches, thus getting the benefit of bad calls.

I sincerely recommend the MLB organization to introduce VTR for their judging. Human cannot avoid mistakes completely, and our judgments are not always free from favoritism. Some may say that that's (arbitrary judging is) the baseball. However, we should concern that the current level of low-quality umpires would just bring the MLB games to boring and less popular pro-sports in the world.

With introduction of VTR, needless to say, I hope that umpire crews become much more careful to see play, and their calls become fairer to both sides. The VTR-assist judging would also make baseball games more fun and exciting. Let me take two examples of utterly surprising plays of Ichiro. 1) May 15, 2005 (SEA vs. BOS): Ichiro ran into a home-plate from the first base. (A 3B traffic light was erroneously green that time) Ichiro abruptly stop his high-speed running just in front of the catcher, and instead of bumping into the catcher (hoping he drops a ball), nor sliding around the catcher, Ichiro just jumped over him and reached the home-plate safely. VTR showed that he was safe, but home-plate umpire's call was simply "Out," since his play was beyond umpire's thinkable plays. The catcher, later, told Japanese reporter, that he actually did not tatch Ichiro. 2) September 5, 2007 (SEA vs. NYY): Ichiro quickly changed his direction, so that he could avoid Jeter's tag. Again the 2B umpire called out, probably because timing was so obviously out. Ichiro has been developing these skills throughout his career, so that he could beat any unusual situations he may encounter in the game. Unfortunately, it wouldn't seem that human eyes could see, especially for umpires.' I hope that VTR will reveal players' such exciting athletic performance and desperate efforts, which can be seen only in a comic book.

I heard that the SUMO wrestling, a traditional national sport of Japan, introduced VTR for their majestic judging as way back to as 1969. They needed to preserve the sanctity of tradition of fairness.

I think part of the reason why this decline has been so intense and personal for so many people is due to its unexpectedness. Prior to the start of the Angels series at home, there was no inkling of anything serious/negative/wrong happening in terms of team chemistry, dynamics, etc. And even though the team has lost 13 of its last 14 games, the team insists that there is nothing the matter and not even a significant roster change is necessary. Of course how drastic of a roster change can occur when the most serious flaw in your team happens to be the starters? Look at the starters for the Angels, Yankees, Twins and Tigers...only the Bronxsters have a weakness there but because of their situation they've tried out more pitchers and have hit upon a group that works through sheer numbers, trial and error...with the exception of the #5 slot, NOTHING has changed with Seattle.

I fully expect a drastic change at the top regarding this team and it will be completely deserved because unlike previous recent years where mediocrity was the defining quality throughout the year, to be so good and consistent up to the end of August and then have the engine fall out of the car like this says something worse about how this team has been managed and maintained throughout a season, not just 3/4s of it...and if no drastic change occurs then expect a fall-off in interest and support the likes of which the Ms have never seen before.

Thank goodness for the blogs and opportunities for other voices to be heard than the standard team-shills. With each new loss the spinners like Blowers, Charlton and Valle all lose a little more credibility in the eyes of the fans who honestly DO know better.

I mean really....would it really hurt if JUST ONCE a MAJOR roster change should occur, like AJ in left, WB in right, Bloomie at 2nd, JV at 1st and RI as DH? I think of all the things McL has done that has been the most damaging to the team psyche, it's insisting that the old roster is fine...by not making any major changes, he personifies every 'denial' trait in the books.

The downfall of the Mariners, is the lack of starting pitching. Except for Hernandez, and sometimes Washburn, there are no starters worth anything on the Mariners. You have to give a team 6 innings of quality innings, to give the team a chance to win. Also faulty 3rd base coaching and a manager who insists on playing the same players, in the same order, night after night. Giving them a rest once in awhile, might help put a spark under them, but McLaren refuses to do that. Get some starting pitching, a new GM, new coaches and a manager for next year. Otherwise, the losing we are doing now, could continue into next year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: OPS is not "flawed". It's just another tool to analyze a player's contribution. I happen to think it's better than BA since it measures the ability of a hitter to both not make an out and hit for power, which are two moderately important things for a hitter. OPS is so widely accepted now that to refer to it as a fringe or obscure stat is willingly living behind the times. Why the stat hatred Resin?