Geoff - thanks for your thoughts; I agree that thinks look darker now than a week ago. But, there is still life. (Or, is that "still life" as in fruit and flowers?)
The reason for the fewer posts is that it is depressing to talk about bad things, when everything has already been said.
But, I'll hang in there until the end, even if it turns out to be the bitter end.

It's funny that wherever you look after this series ended you see fans thinking the sky is falling. I'm a huge M's fan and try to watch every game but at the same time I try to remember that it's just a game. I have to say I was a little depressed after the sweep. Then all I had to do was think back to my expectations of the M's at the beginning of the season and how my favorite sports team exceeded them. I mean besides maybe the team did any of you guys think the M's were going to be this good? The answer is no because we were instead talking about how Jose Guillen was a risky signing because of his injuries and attitude. Don't forget about how we unhappy we were when we traded for Vidro. My goal for the beginning of the season was third place in the AL West. I know that sounds pessimistic but I was trying to be realistic. Anyway can the M's kiss the AL West division title goodbye? Yes. Can they still make the playoffs? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No.

re: Hargrove

Actually, I think by the time he left, Hargrove was doing a more than adequate job in the opinion of a lot of his previous detractors. An eight-game winning streak will do that to you, but even more than that, I think the removal of Mateo from the 25-man solved our largest gripe with Hargrove. He suddenly went from making inexplicable bullpen moves to making prudent ones, especially on those long road-trips.

Jose guillen is not that kind of person that the clubhouse need. Remember eigth or seven different teams..probably for not good person..we need to support the team...

Those who are calling for McLaren's head since he pitched at Guerrero are silly. Good idea, let's walk him and face arguably the league's hottest hitter during the past wo weeks! Good call! I have calmed down a little bit after yesterday, and have realized that the Wild Card is now ours to lose. We play the other two contenders on this road trip, and can do some damage in a hurry.

Geoff - Totally agree with your perspective on seeing the big picture. There are certainly good and bad decisions made in each game over the course of the season. You can't get too down on a guy when some don't work out. As long as it isn't a huge pattern.

BUT - It's the big picture things that are so frustrating to me. Obviously the Sexson thing has been beat to a pulp. But this is laughable now, and makes it extremely difficult to be a true fan. Similar with HR and Lopez. You don't feel like the team is putting its best foot forward to try and win.

It's really time to acknowledge that these guys aren't going to be there to help this team when it matters this year. Even if their replacements don't amount to much more, at least the fans can feel like management WANTS to win.

This keeps me at arms length as a fan and somewhat pessimistic frankly. It's disappointing.

I've been a Seattle sports fan all my life, having grown up in West Seattle. I still remember Rainers games at Sicks Stadium (I think if a ballplayer hit a Hawaii airlines sign in the outfield, some lucky fan would win a trip to Hawaii) and remember the days when all we had was AAA baseball, Seattle Totems Hockey, and the Huskies as our teams. I have been pleasantly surprised by the M's success this year, and have started paying attention once again to the games and the reaction of the fans. I know it hurts to lose, but how much better to be in this position than 20 games out thinking about next year again, or even 10 games out. There have been plenty of times when the M's were 7 or 8 out this year that I figured it was all over, and then a winning sreak would happen, and we'd be 3 out instead. No matter what happens, I think it has been an interesting and fun year...I mean, losing a manager, not because he was fired, but he quit? A second place team? And they did not fall apart. We may finish 10 or 12 games out and miss the wild card, but the way this season is going, we might make it as well...whatever happens, it has been a ride, and I'm glad I was along for it...GO M'S!

The Mariners were 12 games over with Hargrove.

The Mariners are 3 games over with McLaren.

Brett - so are you saying you would have rather pitched to Vlad than Anderson?

Really?

Guillen isn't the kind of person the clubhouse needs? BS!!! He is the only veteran to step up and show how you make the postseason, by running your a$$ off and making plays. Have you not been watching any games lately? Yes, he is sometimes has a temper, but I think it is a great deviation from the blah Raul.

Geoff,

As a long time USSM reader, I love your "pocket lint" reference, which they would never make about you, even when they disagree with you, which has been more frequently lately. In fact, Dave and Derek seem to love your work.

I agree with you and disagree with them and a lot of their commenters about McLaren. The fact is that we are always going to complain about a manager. Did it anger me to see Richie in the lineup every day? Yes. Did I hate to see Parrish and Rick White in pressure situations? Yes. Do I want to see more of AJ? Yes. Do I think that he should be manager next year? Yes.

People should try to remember how much we complained (pre-blog) about Lou's many problems with rookies and pitchers. Hindsight isn't actually 20/20. We just remember when he made other mgrs look foolish the way that Scoscia (sp?) did when he sniffed out the hit and run with Kenji on and Willie batting the other night.

There are no perfect managers, only ones who have won the WS, and ones who have not. I would just like to know who all the complainers think should be the Mgr here.

One thing all through this season, as fun as it's been, is that the M's have no legit lights out "guaranteed win" starter at the top of the rotation. It's like a mishmash of "now he's hot" "now he isn't" rotation. I laughed the other day when a caller on radio to Tom Glasgow said, "Miguel Batista is a great pitcher..." and he got the usual homer agreement from Shannon Dreyer and Dave Valle. He is not a great pitcher, and the fact he's been our most reliable starter all year really stabs at the reality that this team would get killed in the playoffs. Dave Cameron at USS Mariner thinks this team is well geared for the playoffs and I think he's crazy. It has no rotation guys to match up against the John Lackey types pitch for pitch in two, and maybe even three times in a seven game series.

So does Bavasi follow the Supersonics model pre-Sam Presti and keep fielding "almost good" teams, or does he have the vision, and the job security, to look 2 - 3 years down the road with emerging minors talent and wise free agent moves? I look at the track record, and I don't trust Bavasi to build a special team. I've loved Bob Fontaine's drafts since Bavasi took the helm, but I fear this franchise is doomed to never being quite good enough, but always being good enough for the GM to keep his job.

The Mariners had the third best record in baseball inspite of some things that McLaren does and because of other things that he does. That last statement is a banality because every person is better at some parts of their jobs than others.

With McLaren in particular, I suspect that we see most of the "inspite of" decisions and very few of the "because of" decisions because of the kind of guy that McLaren is. That is, he's good at getting the players to play hard for him. I also know that his quotes are very consistent with what we would hear from a guy who is trying too hard to be liked. I also read quotes suggesting that he doesn't understand how to use statistics. He doesn't seem to understand which statistics predict the future and he doesn't seem to get the concept of statistical noise. In other words, he seems like a great guy to be the bench coach for someone more analytically rigorous or someone more demanding. But, ultimately, I don't know what he does well or poorly in the clubhouse or in the private time with players. So, all I see are baffling in-game moves.

Ultimately, the question is whether he's a net gain or loss. Personally, I have a hard time seeing the evidence that baseball managers make much of a positive difference at all. They seem to be more caretakers and stewards than leaders or planners, especially when the team is so veteran.

As for "arrogance," let me refer you to the phrase: "post hoc ergo propter hoc." Arrogance isn't questioning McLaren, arrogance is disregarding thousands -- thousands mind you -- of years of wisdom. Analysis is analysis and logical flaws are logical flaws. People smarter than you or me have already figured out why you can't just assume "because of" without some further evidence of causation. When 2,500 years of logical and argumentative reasoning collide with 150 years of baseball reasoning, arrogance is preferring the banalities of Crash Davis to the tested wisdom of the Greeks, the Enlightenment, etc.

Adam-

Depends on the situation and who is on the mound, but what else are they going to do? They can't walk both, and right now both of them have been on fire.

The front office needs to communicate WHY they do these things. Explain to me why Sexson is our starting frist baseman when even a child can see how aweful he has been this year. Even if I disagree with the descision I want to know it is something more than just a big middle finger to the fanbase. I keep hearing that Richie can carry a team. Can someone point me to any moment in Richie's entire professional career he has carried his team anywhere other than the couch in October?

I want to take a moment right here and deliver a message to Mike Hargrove. I really wanted you gone, and I railed about your managing ability the whole time you were here. Now that I got my wish, I want you back. I'm sorry. File that under be careful what you wish for.

scottM
I don't hate hippies, I love em' just saying that Rick White looks like he could be the love child of Jerry Garcia and Janis Joplin.
Or for a local flavor, Rick White looks like he could be the result of a drunken Wayne Cody,
JP Patches one night stand.
.
Besides, if I hated hippies I might tell a bad joke like this
.
Q: "Where is the best place to hide POT from a hippe?"
.
A: " Under a bar of soap!"
.
drum roll? ugggghhhh...
.
GO MARINERS!!!!

I hope Pocket Lint enjoys his retirement.

I agree with what Stango says, except for who should be manager next year. I think McLaren is not on the wrong end of bad gambles, he is making bad decisions. Baseball is a game of percentages, and no one bats 1.000, but you can beat the odds by being smarter than the next guy. What McLaren needs to better understand is that old school thinking doesn't cut it anymore -- that he has to beware of things like small sample size, or that Larry the Cable Guy's record against Guerrero is utterly meaningless.

So who should replace him next year? I have no idea. Nor do I have any confidence that Bavasi will make a wise choice. It's frustrating for Mariner fans that they can do nothing about the poor personnel decisions that prevent this organization from out-performing other organizations that have far less money to spend.

Okay, look. Need anybody point out that we still have to play the Halos four more games at the end of September? By then, where will we be? Could it be possible to pull it out after that series? Yes, it's all about the pitching. Where is Jamie Moyer? Winning over there....
Sexson was traded from the Diamondbacks for the same reasons we gripe about him here. They called him the "one trick wonder" even though we know he's pulled out some wild throws and got outs at first nobody else could have. Even Ben.
McLaren is an untried commodity at the helm and while he's made some bonehead calls, still he's at least gotten the team to where it is now. Still in a pennant race. And we are. It's not over til it's over, folks and there's still lots of baseball to play yet. How would you like to live in Kansas City or Tampa Bay? Nobody should feel like we're "over" as a team. This do or die must win nonsense is just that.
Perhaps this humiliating sweep will wake up the M's to turn on the after burners and prove exactly what type of character the team has. We all learn more from our failures than our successes.
The big picture Geoff refers to is pertinent right now. Let's see if we as fans can truly stay with our team all the way through the good and bad the way Cubs fans do. And look at Boston fans. Geez, they didn't win a WS for years and years. Hello??
Keep on keepin' on and go all out every day believing in our M's. They need all the fan base support they can get right now! Go M's!

Geoff, you are correct that it is time for the fans to grab some perspective on this team. The season is far from over, and it is time for the team to step up like they have all season long. The series was crippling in terms of the division title and damaging for the wild card, but the M's are still leading in the wild card standings (percentage points). It was very disappointing that the team played so poorly in what was the most important series so far this year, but its time to move on and be ready for this roadtrip.
.
You make a good point with McLaren, though his in-game decisions leave a lot to be desired. Perhaps this is tied to knowing the team too well, but so far I have not been impressed with McLaren. Calling for him to be fired after 30(?) games is extreme, but he is going to have to manage the team better over the next 30 games to get some relief. Sometimes bringing in your best pitcher with the team down by one run makes as much sense as being one run up. Believing in L/R splits for pitchers but not for batters is confusing. Sticking with a struggling/injured player when there is a solid bench player available is poor management. He has to improve on these points, points which were identified when the team was winning and are now focal points when the team is losing. Perhaps we should give McLaren a break this year, but he simply needs to improve. Better decisions gets me back on McLaren's side, the results of those decisions will have less of an effect.

The problem with this team is that there's nothing scary about them. For this team to succeed, it feels like every player needs to perform at their highest ability. "If the starter tonight can just do what he's capable of, then they've got a good chance."

The same goes for our hitting.....yes....there are good hitters in our lineup, but is there any hitter there that would truly 'scare' you if you were the other team? Think about it from the opponents perspective...when you're facing the M's for 3 games are you concerned about anyone handing you your hat? The only players I think another team would be afraid of would be Ichiro and J.J. but Ichiro doesn't show the power that creates that sort of fear. You know he's going to produce but you're not entirely concerned that he's going to carry the entire game with 1 swing of the bat. You know he's going to hurt you but it won't necessarily be a crushing, gut wrenching blow.

Then think about it from the M's perspective...when they go into a series who scares them? Going into Monday night I would say that Guerrero and Anderson scared you at the plate and Lackey and Escobar scared you on the mound.

So, because of that, we as fans find ourselves concerned because we know that this team will beat average teams most of the time but any team above average will outperform us because they've got at least 2 or 3 guys who put the fear of God in you and they know how to perform in the clutch.

For this team to truly contend, it needs at least 1 scary bat in the lineup and an Ace on the mound. With that said, think back to when Guerrero was signed by the Angels. Wouldn't it have been nice to have found a way to get him ourselves? Where would we be now if we had signed Guerrero and the Angels hadn't? He's in the 4th year of a 5 year, 70 million dollar contract. That's 14 million a year. Doesn't seem like too much, does it? I wonder what it would've taken to sign him back in the offseason leading up to the '04 season. I wonder what the Mariner's said back then about the 'cost'.

In many ways you could've taken a page from the Yankee playbook.....'if we can, we're not going to let another team in our division get the superstar player' Sometimes they've been able to perform on this, sometimes they haven't. But overall they've seemed to have success in this area and it's helped them for the last 10 years or so.

Man...where would we be if we had signed Vladimir instead of the Angels? If that had happened we wouldn't be looking for that scary bat right now.

Oh well....the Yankees are up 2-0 in this afternoon's game at that dump in the bronx.

Hey Joe,

JP Patches and Wayne Cody? Mr. Patches was colorful, but Mr. Cody only looked pregnant.

Actually it was "Pigpen" of the Grateful Dead who had a salacious on-and-off affair with Janis Joplin. I guess that makes your one liner even funnier. :=)

ScottM
Author, "The Hippie Narrative:
A Literary Perspective on the Counterculture"

Unfortunatly we have a front office that seems uninterested in preventing Anaheim from obtaining the star players, as we will again this winter when we watch them sign ARod.

Well, I can tell you this about McLaren, a wrong move is to keep throwing Rick White out there when the game is still within reach. The guy is a gas can of a pitcher, and how often do we get surprised when he lets things go from bad to worse. Yeah, the other relievers have been streaky lately, but why throw it all away on a guy who is no longer a major league pitcher? Last night may not have been a critical situation, but the guy is not an upgrade to the bullpen. Additional bodies do not strengthen the pen by taking up a seat.

Also, use your best pitcher when the game is still on the line. In the critical middle game, as soon as Morrow starts to falter, you bring in JJ to close down the 8th. I don't care if he has to pitch two innings. With Felix on the mound the next day, you like your odds of Putz having an easy time of it in the following game. You need your surest thing in the highest leverage situations, and one run down in the 8th is still a possible win. I fault him less for this than the White scenario, but we never got to JJ, so look how it helped us to "save" him.

I cannot speak for the entire Safe, but throughout my entire section on tuesday night we all sat there in absolute stunned disbelief when White was called in to pitch to Guerero. Half the crowd didn't even know who he was and the half that did mostly headed for the exits.

That one call is so unbelievably wrong that if I was Bill Bavasi I am asking for McClaren's resignation Wednesday morning. I don't know maybe I'm just not as nice as Bill. Seriously though, 44,000 people knew what the outcome of that at bat was going to be, why didn't Mac?

The M's have won 73 games this season. I live in Dallas and the Ranger fans would love to be in our shoes. Throughout the year I've expressed my negative opinions about Weaver (and the starting pitching in general) and Sexson. But I still think it's great the M's are in the hunt with a little over a month to go.

The starting pitching staff needs help. David Wells and Estaeban Loaiza both were available on waivers but Bavasi couldn't pull the trigger. It's clear Bavasi isn't going to make any additional moves to improve this year's team. And don't count on the September call ups to provide a major impact.

In the end, the M's are what they are. But you don't need to scare people on paper to win. Look at last year's St. Louis Cardinals.

Yankees are beating Boston 2-0 in the 8th.

pk,

I agree with you 100% about the basis for McLaren's decision making. However, I place all the blame for what's going wrong with this team on the FO. They are who put together this team with so many flaws: no feared hitter, avg (at best) defense, avg to below avg rotation, no set-up man, etc... Who would have thought that we would ever have bad defense? I thought that our whole strategy was to build around speed, pitching and defense, to suit our park. Instead we've done the exact opposite.

And, the wyrm: I think that if you were Bavasi, we wouldn't even have Rick White, right? So, why would the GM fire McLaren for using the guy that the GM signed with the hope of improving the team? I'm assuming that's what he was trying to do, at least. I remember hoping and praying that we would sign Vlad, but I also think that we would have had to pay more than the Angels did. I mean, if you were Dominican, not a great English speaker, and had been stuck playing for bad teams and all things (read $$) were equal, wouldn't you prefer a team that won the WS and is in heavily Latino, very sunny SoCal over dreary (to many people), mediocre (at least in sports) Seattle?

Simply put, we have to pay more than some other teams do.

Hey Geoff, you are right in that people can be too fast to criticize and desire to "run" managers out of town. And I do think the audience for these blogs can be the harshest critics. But I do get concerned when McClaren makes a statement like(from yesterday), "they[the Angels] have so much speed, and pesky little hitters with small strike zones ... they can use walks, bunts ... a lot of things they can come at you with." And yet, he continues to trot out a team with minimal speed, no willingness to take walks, inability or unwillingness to sac bunt, etc. Granted he has to work with what he's got but if he believes in what he says above, he should be using AJ in a few more situations than he has. We should have seen some walks, bunts, etc., after the team got the 5 run lead Tuesday. Something to break the rhythm of a young middle reliever. Also the way the Angels played us, I can't help but think that their management/scouts did a heck of a better job in prepping for us than vice versa.

I second your thoughts on the way this team was built. I keep reading how similar the Marines and Angels are and I'm always amazed. They had a consistent philosophy and put together a team with speed that also has good pitching and a big hitter. We've got some speed, but it's interrupted by some pretty slow legs. I can't see much attempt to fit our team to our ballpark. I love having a solid middle of the field, but once you get past that, it's hit and miss.

3-0 yanks.

Touché. If I was Bavasi all along, I would have made a lot of different choices. Sadly, many of them have turned out to have been better ones than Bill made and I am FAR from being a baseball expert.

Speaking of terrible moves by Bavasi, who's idea was it to show that video of Carlos Guillen at the Safe on tuesday? It got a round chorus of "Bavasi is an idiot!" in my section. Should the ballpark really call attention to one of the worst personell descisions our manager has ever made?

I'm trying to be as positive as I can about our current situation. But, the Yankee fans are chirping, and chirping loud.

It seems like I can't get away from it. Everywhere I go, I find a Yankee fan that's telling me that the M's are no match, and that, come next week, the M's will be buried.

And I gotta tell you, it's really hard for the M's to bury the Yankees when all the MLB wants the Yankees in the playoffs. It may sound ridiculous, but what other answer is there for all the blown calls? MLB knows that the ratings go up for the playoffs when the Yankees are there. Between the M's and Yanks, everyone would rather see the Yankees in. So, the umpires are doing everything they can to make MLB happy.

I really, truly can't take this anymore. In my deepest prayers, I can only pray for the M's to sweep the Yanks away next week, and put an end to all this chirping. If God really loved us, then that's what would happen.

I've had this sinking feeling the last two days that, come next week, the M's will be about 4 or 5 out of the Wild Card, with no way to catch up.

I hope i'm wrong!!

Sorry, that should have read one of the worst descisions our GENERAL manager has ever made.

i'm willing to be critical of McLaren without calling for his head. i think he is a very poor in-game strategist -- and folks have articulated that very well above. but there is no doubt that he deserves some patience and should be judged by the body of work at the end of the season. i personally think that his team management will cost us the 2 or 3 games by which we'll miss the playoffs -- but i continue to hope he proves me wrong.

as so many have said, the big test is ahead. we are still in the thick of the wild card and we're staring down the next big series playoff test going up against the Yanks in the Bronx. if we can keep pace with the Yanks during this brutal stretch of games, we'll control our own destiny in September. and you can't ask for much more than that.

as i wrote a few days ago at the beginning of this losing streak, this team is streaky. its the most maddening thing for a fan -- but its the reality of how they're constructed. it means they streak up -- and they streak down. and it's got everything to do with our offense. we were never going to win on the backs of our starting pitchers -- but when our offense gets hot it doesn't really matter who's on the mound for us or the opposing team. my hope is that we have bottomed out on this latest streak and the pendulum will swing the other way.

the one glimmer of hope for me is that streaky teams like ours are well built to compete in a "shortened season" -- meaning the season really is now just 30 games. we can get suddenly hot and basically be unbeatable in a short stretch of games.

the trouble, of course, is that this teams streaks are nearly completely unpredictable -- other than to say there seems to be a correlation between an extended streak of one kind followed by an extended streak of the other.

i personally expect this team to finish with about 89 wins and that probably means that we miss the playoffs by 2 or 3 games. and that's when things like pitching to Vlad, using Parrish/White in critical moments and sticking with Sexson will look even more consequential than they do today.

all of this doesn't change the fact that this has been one of the more remarkable Ms seasons in many, many years. and the best thing is that i feel like they are poised to be competitive for years to come. i like the nucleus of this team. there are a lot of pitching adjustments -- and a big albatross to unload (yes, i'm looking at you big guy) -- but there is a lot of upside to this club. whether Bavasi/McLaren can capitalize on (rather than cannibalize) this is yet to be seen. but in these dark days after a humiliating sweep -- its nice to have something to look forward to.

go Ms!

5-0 yanks. There goes the wc.

All for all of you yahoos who keep saying the 'season ain't over yet' have apparently not been paying attention. This team has not shown the ability to compete. This has nothing to do with other teams catching us. It has everything to do with us falling apart. Do you honestly believe the M's will go into Yankee Stadium and win this next week?

If they were able to do that, they would've been able to take 2 of 3 from the frickin' yuppie angels.

To eddieranch - Amen, Brother. I tried to make that point several weeks ago, that the M's appear to have ZERO scouting reports, either on opposing hitters, pitchers, or tendencies. I can't understand that lack. Yesterday, Felix didn't realize what was happening - he said he was making good pitches, but they were hitting them. That's most likely because the Angel's scouts told their hitters what to expect. Did our scouts tell our guys anything? Sure didn't look like it. Why is it AAA call-ups look like Cy Young and MVP players against us? Some .200 hitter, an emergency catcher, looks like the next HR king. etc., etc.
Some years ago, Margie Schott (Cinn. Reds) was asked why she didn't hire scouts - her answer was, Why pay guys to do nothing but watch baseball games?

M's game will be televised on DirecTv by FSN Ohio at 4:05 PM for those who can get it (may be blacked out in the Northwest). Yankees beat Boston - now a must win for the M's.

Well, to be perfectly frank, until the M's decide that they want to win as badly as the Yankees, then I don't see how we can expect to beat them. Notice how they have no problem bringing up minor league talent to replace faltering veterans? Or removing a struggling pitcher from their rotation?

Winning is a state of mind and it starts at the top. Instead of making the difficult choices it takes to be a winner, we have a front office who coddles our veteran players in the hopes that they will return to form. Would the Yankees suffer through an everyday starter batting sub .200 for the better part of 5 months?

Re: Vlad and Anderson

I would have probably pitched to Anderson and walked Vlad, but both of them just hit the snot out our pitching, so it's kind of a pick your poison. If I had to choose though, I'd pitch to Anderson. The thing with Vlad is he's hitting about .500 against us this year, but it's not only this year. He done it 2 or 3 years in a row. He's a good hitter, but other teams must be able to have some success if he's hitting .327. That's all a moot point now. We need to focus on what's ahead of us.

Even though I am a tried and true fan I kind of had a feeling that this was going to happen. It's a stage they just aren't quite ready for yet. They will get there in time. All is not lost, we can still do this, it's just gonna be a little bit tougher road.

I was concerned after the first game of the Angels series when it Geoff reported that M's clubhouse was light and there wasn't much seem for concern. Many look to Raul and the "unofficial" leader of this team. I almost vomited in my own mouth when I read his comments after last night's game, "Do or die? I don't know exactly what that means." To me it means not caring enough to go out there and make a statement in the most important series of the series. Or it could be translated to mean that the M's are content to bow out of the AL West race and hope to contend for the Wild Card.

Perhaps waking up and being 5 games out of the West and 1/2 percentage point behind the Yankees will help them to realize what, "Do or die" time really means.

I will stay tuned for the rest of the season, as I have for the past 25 years. I am going with the old rally cry, "I'm a LeFebvre Believre" Go M's! Give McLaren a full offseason to make this team truly his own.

Very well put wyrm. And this is a Yankee team that supposedly doesn't have any talent left in its organization with which to improve the team because of all the trades they've made to 'improve' in the past.

DC,

To answer your questions, I think the Angels are a better team than the Yankees are, but there is something about the mystique that is Yankee Stadium. Do I think we can take 2 out of 3 from the Yankees ?? Yes. Will we?? Remains to be seen.

The blog is heating up - by the time I type in something, 3 or 4 more get posted.
To thewyrm at 12:53 - I wasn't there, so I didn't see it. I was so incensed over the Griffey circus put on by the FO, I couldn't see straight! As I said, the FO ruined a promising career - Ryan may never recover from that fiasco. I suppose the Carlos thing was the same stuff.
To Frankie at 12.54 - you explained it - money, money, money. I wonder if Meale got a bonus for the last series. And the previous one at Texas, Wolf seemed intent on helping Texas. On the other hand, I don't think the NFL scripted SB XL, but all the retirement hoopla, plus assigning a Pitt native was suspicious.

First of all, Geoff quit getting all defensive, you make yourself look like a little kid.

My question here is what's the point? What's the point of even trying to make the playoffs at this point. Sure it's good for people like Geoff (gets him all riled up and gives him something to do), its good for the organization because tickets get sold but honestly what the hell is the point? This team can't win one game against any of the playoff contenders in the AL. Right now their likely opponent in the playoffs is the Boston Red Sox and do any of you honestly think we'll win that 5 game series? With all of our 1 decent pitcher -- Hernandez? give me a freaking break.

If this team was any smart, the management would've went young 2 months ago and started prepping for next season. The whole point of playing baseball is winning the World Series, not making the post season!! So if you have no legitimate shot at winning the Series why even try? Grow your prospects, give them chances to play and experience. Set up your rotation and bullpen for the coming year, make your offseason plans, etc and etc and meanwhile you get a top 10 draft pick!!

Next year's lineup looks to be an upgrade offensively and Defensively by moving Ibañez to 1st base, but we will still have the same problem with our starting rotation. Right now is when I really wish common sense had prevailed in what to do with Morrow. I have a hard time believing he will be ready to start next year.

thewyrm: this is an excellent point -- and i think its the heart of the problem. many of us have talked about the "second place chemistry" dynamic of this team.

the Yankees don't have that mind set and they have managed to have the best record in baseball since the All Star Break. the other team that doesn't have this mentality is the Angels -- and we just saw how good they are.

i'm not suggesting that we should become the Evil Empire or those ridiculously named LAAAAA -- but we should sure as hell learn from them. as long as they are out maneuvering us on the general and field management of their squads, we are doomed to suffer "second place chemistry".

i think this starts with the FO -- and it's more than just Bavasi. the entire front office has this weird "you gotta love these guys" mentality. that's a fine slogan -- but a terrible strategy.

it seems to me that someone ought to remind them that the biggest financial boost a team can have is a win. and the next biggest financial boost for a team is a play off berth. you'd think the raw business math would lead to better decisions making.

Everett fan: i remember you making the point about scouting earlier in the season. it was spot on then and seems even more so now.

i think its a big part of the reason our pitching got rocked this series. i don't get any sense that the Ms have a complete game plan driven by good scouting. it was clear that both Batista and Felix were 'figured out' by the Angel's.

personally, i think this was a product of the Hargrove era. i'm hoping that it doesn't extend to next year.

Geoff - thanks for acknowledging my post with a reply. I am only as volitile as my caffeine level. My assessment is that McL is learning the team (first year back) learning a new role (manager), learning what the new parts can do (apparently not enough for the posters), and learning that the safe bet is perhaps the wise bet. His on-the-job-training does not suit everyone. Even I have screamed interim several times at the radio/computer screen. Putting the best team on the field on any given day depends on health issues, mental fatigue, grief (Jose Lopez's case) and so many intanglables that the common fan cannot comprehend. But playing the same folks over and over until they are worn out and no longer able to play to the best of their ability is stupid. 69 Cubs. You use day games to get guys in. Pitching match-ups. Late inning subs for defense and running. It is great to cheer something other than if Ichiro can get to 200 hits in a season. I believe in the team and endorse the team concept. Rotate players, positions and rest the best. You need them all. My earn your way into the line up analogy stands. Richie (for example) may have been the best coming out of spring training but he should be sitting against rhp, on day games and perhaps even get away games. Willie, while not the best, has earned his way into the rotation with his hustle & heart. Giving Yuni, Beltre and Jose Lopez a day off every week will keep them all fresh. That has got to keep them mentally focused. I am interested to see who we call up and when for September is when the merry-go-round of line up changes will appear. We are not just looking at who can play next year, we are looking at who can perform under pressure NOW. That includes the manager.

byebyeibanez, you have to have the stupidest logic I've ever seen. 30 games to go, practically tied in the WC race.. and you want to give up on the season? Did you see St. Louis win it last year? Did you think they had a shot? If you GET to the playoffs, you have a great chance. This is baseball, afterall.. a game where the team with the most talent rarely wins it all.

With the money our ownership is willing to spend, and our expansive geographic fanbase (I'm an Alaskan for crying out loud!) there is no excuse for us to not compete for the World Series every year. We have the money to spend, and a ballpark that should make the best left handed hitters in the MLB absolutely salivate over the prospect of playing here.

Speaking of which, someone explain to me how a team that plays 81 games at SafeCo Field only has three lefties in the lineup? It is unfortunate that we built a ballpark tailored to Ken Griffey Jr. (Huge Outfield for his range, short Right Field fence for his power stroke) and he only spent half a season in it. What a waste.

thewyrm: i totally agree. i've been saying this for several seasons. we have the resources to be competitive every season. we're not a small market team anymore -- like the As and the Twins. we're now officially big time -- and that means we need to hold the team to a much higher standard.

i didn't blame Bavasi for the first miserable year because he was largely picking up the pieces of Gillick's veteran heavy, farm system light debacle.

however, he has had several years and a massive payroll to rebuild this club. it is time to make the leap from small market mentality to big market competitiveness.

part of this means building a team suited to your ball park. as oregongal wrote above, we have gotten very far away from that recently. SafeCo demands a fast team with impeccable defensive skills -- that's willing to play aggressive small ball and have enough LH power to be a long ball threat.

that just doesn't describe this team right now.

Baker... you are learning very quickly that, yes, most Mariner fans are front runners.

Most weren't even aware Seattle had a baseball team until 1995.

Thun- I would ammend your statement to read most weren't even aware Seattle had a baseball team until 1989. 'Cause well. . . before Griffey we didn't.

sad but true... but I can tell you that there are about 8,000 a night that can attest to having baseball before '89

The question I have is this: Will the Mariners look at the success of this season, and being in the wild card race this late in the season certainly qualifies as a success, and decide that this roster is ready to compete again? Or will the FO deal with the team weakness'? Will they eat salaries for upgrades, especially at 1B? Will they send Morrow to winter instructional league to build up his arm so he can start next year or will they wait for spring training? Will they sign another starter in place of HoRam? Will they try to make a deal with Weaver and his agent Boros? Does Bavasi have it in himself to make the deals to continue this improvement?

What many are forgetting is that the same team that has had losing streaks has also had several winning streaks following that. The M's are far from out of it, and really, how many of the posters who are out for blood really expected the M's to be here in the first place? I have posted for a long time that the M's are a year away and wouldn't make the postseason this year. I am OK with that. In fact they are doing better than I thought they would. IF they can get through the rest of the road trip at .500 they will have the last 14 of 21 at home against mainly beatable teams. The Yanks will have a much tougher end of season to deal with. I still don't think the M's get to the postseason but let's be realistic here, this has been a great season.

McLaren is definitely coming back next year. Ichiro said his job is safe.

To Mr. Nintendo and the other billionaire owners who put up 1/10 of 1% of their wealth to buy the Mariners and then have obsessed about the bottom line of their "investment" ever since,
Sincere thanks for saving the team from that snake oil salesman Smulyen but now it's time to sell the team to an owner who cares more about winning than making a profit. An owner who wouldn't tolerate a moron like Bavasi running the team.

Mark Cuban - please buy the Mariners. Thanks.

I guess even a Yankee pitcher (if you're a rookie and not named Clemens) can get in trouble with an umpire:

New York Yankees rookie phenom Joba Chamberlain was ejected in the ninth inning of Thursday's 5-0 victory against the rival Boston Red Sox for throwing two pitches near the head of first baseman Kevin Youkilis.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=txyankeeschamberlain&prov=st&type=lgns

GB: I don't think anyone thinks you are "pocket lint" (I know I don't). I just think you let McLaren off too easily after some horrible moves. As one of your posters put it earlier, 44,000 fans all saw it coming when he allowed Vlad to single handedly beat the M's. No, he probably shouldn't be fired in the middle of a pennant race. But if the M's miss the playoffs by a game or two, well, I'll just say many of us will blame him for basically giving a couple of games away.
Maybe this is all still too fresh, but I went to all three games this week, and not only did McLaren botch the middle game, but the team looked disinterested and was clearly not ready to play throughout this entire series. And in my book that is on the manager as well.

Vogel: "the trouble, of course, is that this team's streaks are nearly completely unpredictable."

It does seem that way, but one of the confounding things about the M's is how they will start a win streak just when we fans begin to give up on them. This team has an odd way of rallying themselves when least expected. By losing to the Angels so pathetically, the silver lining is that the M's are now close to where they play the best: under the radar.

If the M's can go 6-4 or even 5-5 over the next ten games, then they will be positioned to make a largely "under the radar" run for the wildcard during the stretch run from Sept 10th through 30th.

The M's can't control what the Yankees or Tigers do, except when playing those teams head to head. The players do need to step up the intensity a notch--something we haven't seen since game two in Texas. The pitchers, especially, need to stay within themselves, and the batters need to not go for the bleachers so often, but to take what the other pitchers give them.

It's too early to write this season off. Still time to enjoy the ride. WARNING to all you feint of heart blogging naysayers: this race will drive you crazy!!

we just don't have any leadership right now...obvioulsy, they were not ready to play..i've never seen so many mistakes..I understand the Angels are better and that is fine to lose to better team, but to play tight and make mental errors..that is unacceptable..this isn't Little League..step up..Sexson cannot handle pressure..he has never been in a pressure situation until this year and what do you know..he shrivels up and then whines about getting booed..are you kidding?..he is hitting .200 for almost an entire season..i would boo myself...what a giant vag...we will see what leaders will emerge right now...this is it

dfb: this is a great perspective. the only thing i want to see is the management doing everything it can to maximize every opportunity. this means putting the best team on the field every game -- it means spelling your regulars so you don't flame out at the end a long stretch -- it means officially platooning 1B.

but i still am pleased to be where we are -- and will root the team on until the last out of the season.

wrmike: great questions.

i think that there is scenario where we answer these questions with positive answers -- and then we'd be a formidable competitor in 2008.

here are some of my thoughts:

1. trade Sexson (and be willing to eat a lot of salary in the process).
2. move Raul to 1B
3. put Jones in LF
4. retain Guillen
5. find a power LH bat to DH (and spell at 1B)
6. Vidro becomes a hot switch hitting bat off the bench that occasionally DHs.
7. stretch Morrow out in winter ball
8. cut HoRam
9. sign the best starting pitcher we can afford
10. build a rotation of New Pitcher, Felix, Batista, Washburn and Morrow

that's my thinking. it's not perfect because you have to deal with the hand you've been dealt -- but i think it makes for an improved team.

i wonder what others think.

PS: i'm sorry for so much focus on next year -- but its something to take my mind off of what is likely to be 6 losses in a row and losing the WC lead to the Yankees.

from ricofoy: "now it's time to sell the team to an owner who cares more about winning than making a profit."

This is patently ridiculous. Maybe Clayton Bennett can gather a group to buy the M's. Or would you prefer a local traitor like Howard Schultz? (If you think Bavasi is bad, think Wally Walker).

We should count our blessings that the M's have an ownership that is, foremost, loyal to staying in the city of Seattle, and, secondly, willing to invest in players who they believe will help win a championship: most recently Ichiro and now Guillen. It's fine to take issue with how much Sexson is being overpaid, or the $8 million going rate for a one year deal on Weaver, but the fact is that the ownership has given the M's management the latitude to spend more than most MLB teams on player salaries.

Why manufacture problems in an area where there are none?

Being so disgusted that you don't want to think about it anymore or go to a blog and revel in the mystery does not make me us fair weathered fans.

Best to take a deep breath, console my kids by playing some football, check out the U.S. Open, and regroup as yet another losing streak is upon us.

Well, that was the fear coming into the Angels having lost two in a row. The M's don't do much in terms of small losing streaks. They have had losing streaks of 6, 3, 6, 7 and this one, and then no other streaks longer than 2 games. When they go in a funk, its a week long event.

Can this team heat up while on a 10-game road trip to Cleveland, Toronto, New York and Detroit? Most would look at 5-5 as a decent trip, and anything 6-4 or better as a big success.

First game could go either way. Its a rookie, so that's usually bad for us, but Laffey is a Lefty, and we are 24-8 against lefties this year (thanks Guillen!!!).

Yankees won today, so they need to win to stay even.

For me, I just rewrite history a bit. The M's just swept the Angels to pull into a tie with the Yankees for the Wild Card lead and even managed to pull within 5 games of the Angels who once lead us by 8 games. Sounds better don't it? Go M's!!!

I like your plan Vogel, except for Vidro, and not ruling out a healthy Baek in the rotation. Vidro in the second hole is a great complement for Ichiro. The power you want SHOULD be coming from the other bats. A more relaxed Jones, Ibanez healthy for the whole season, Beltre, and Guillen SHOULD provide enough home runs. Baek, Morrow, and maybe Rowland-Smith have the potential to compete as solid pitchers in the five slot and, even replace Batista if he falters.

Can someone tell me how Sexson got into the top 10 in MLB salaries? Even during his best year, he was never a top 10 player???? Amazing! The Yankees and Red Sox can afford "mistakes" like that, not the Mariners.............

scottM: i'm really torn on Vidro. i was down on him for the first half of the year for his poor numbers and aptitude for double plays. but no one can deny he has been an unbelievable complement to Ichiro since the All Star Break. i'm just not convinced he can keep up this torrent pace next year, and if he falls off this unprecedented pace he because a liability as a DH. maybe he'll prove me wrong.

i totally agree about the other young arms in the system. Baek could be a great option. and RRS has been particularly impressive. i think that all of them should be given the opportunity to compete for the 5th spot -- and lets face it we're likely to have a need for someone to step up if any of our regular starters goes on the DL.

Geoff, Would you comment on "mental game" of baseball and in particular how we can tell if the Mariners don't have the mental toughness to compete at the highest level or whether it is simply a matter of teams like the Angels just have better players?

When I watched the Angels play the Yankees last week, it seemed obvious to me that these were two really good teams with good players across the board.

Even when I watch the Mariners play really well, I get the feeling that "things just clicked" that day and the opposing pitcher was less than stellar that day. Or is it possible, I care so much about the Mariners and have "suffered" along with them in their lapses that I just don't believe they are , with the exception of a few players, a group of "top notch" players?

It may be that the Mariners are doing as well as their skills permit and we should just all be happy that they have improved this year.

Comment?

vogel,

Have any ideas on how to achieve #9 in your plan? Mariner's have never shown any ability to do this even in a "plentiful" year of Starting Pitching. And this coming off-season doesn't seem like a bumper crop for Free Agent pitching. I suppose a trade would be possible since if Guillen is signed (#4), then it really makes Balentien expendable. Still will be tough to pull off.

I like Morrow as a starter too. But stretching him out in Winter Ball and Spring Training is going to put a lot of innings on his arm before the 2008 season starts. The M's were careful about Felix greatly increasing his innings pitched between years and would think that Morrow may get the same treatment (though being a college pitcher maybe this is not as critical). If they decide to limit his innings, I'm not sure how much he will be able to contribute as a Starter in 2008.

Putting Vidro in the field with a ground ball pitcher on the mound is an incorrect, bad decision.

Putting Vidro in the field with a ground ball pitcher on the mound is an incorrect, bad decision.

Umm..Reality Check? If anyone had told any of us back in March that the Mariners would be 15 games over .500 at this point, in line for a ~95 win season, playing important games in September; we'd have laughed them out of the park. Yeah, the post-season would be nice, but even without it it's been a hell of a year.

Interesting lineup with Lopez out and Adam Jones in RF for Guillen who DH's while Vidro trots out to 2B.

Frankly, I'm up for taking a chance on Vidro at 2B, after Lopez makes another blunder (picked off!) yesterday.

I understand its not optimal with groundball pitcher on the mound, but I see the reasoning behind it and really depends on variance in defensive ability between Bloomquist and Vidro, which is probably not as great as it may at first appear - remember that Vidro is a lifelong 2B who has lost a step.

While Vidro has never been a strong defender, it is NOT like we are putting Edgar Martinez at 2B. Last year, Vidro played 107 games at 2B. His Range Factor was 4.73 and Zone Rating was .793 which is bad (Both measure how many plays a player makes, with RF being more of a counting stat, and ZR involving human judgement of what percent they should get to). Jose Lopez in 2007 sports a 5.12 range factor and .837 ZR.

Vidro's numbers are comparable (nearly identical) this year to KC's Mark Grudzielanek, Jeff Kent, and Ray Durham, who are all full-time second basemen. Vidro is a poor fielding second baseman, but he still has the skills necessary to field the position to get his bat into the lineup, which at this point seems a reasonable risk to run for a few games while trying to maximize the offense.

Why is this guy RICK WHITE trying to pitch, Looks like a fat farmer and pitchs like one.

Why is this guy RICK WHITE trying to pitch, Looks like a fat farmer and pitchs like one.

So, Geoff, so much for "leading the wild card race" and the over .500 record for McLaren.

Amazing how fast the wheels have fallen off, with McLaren casting around like a drunk monkey for a way to, as Ron Fairly would have put it, "stop the bleeding".

You weren't here last year, so maybe you didn't notice the 11 game losing streak in August that took the team from the edge of contention to also-rans in the blink of an eye.

This year, the team got lucky and managed to parlay a few lucky breaks to a winning record in the first half. With the current losing streak, McLaren is back to .500 as a manager, and well, that's about as good as he's every likely to be.

The fact that we continue to get inept managers is due to the fact that we have inept people selecting them. The common thread is that they're all old-school baseball guys that don't really care to learn about any strategies invented after the Mickey Mantle era.

It's true that if McLaren is fired there's no guarantee that the the team would improve, but that's largely because we'd likely get someone with the same baseball DNA anyway. It's time to get away from that tired inbred gene pool.