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Chief political reporter David Postman explores state, regional and national politics.

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July 10, 2008 10:44 AM

Pro-Rossi signs say Seattle stole '04 election

Posted by David Postman

Billboards promoting Dino Rossi's gubernatorial campaign and telling voters "Don't Let Seattle Steal This Election!" are going up in Eastern Washington, thanks to the Republican's biggest backers. The Building Industry Association of Washington is paying $168,000 for 61 of the billboards, according to this story by Spokane TV station KXLY.

I wrote about the signs last month when they started to pop up in Eastern Washington. At the time the Rossi campaign said they had no connection with the signs and didn't know who was erecting them. The BIAW has also led an effort to air radio commercials attacking Gov. Chris Gregoire.

The billboards are an effort to remind Eastern Washington voters about the troubled 2004 vote count in the race between Gregoire and Rossi. That fight ended more than six months after the election when a judge ruled against Republican claims that the election count was flawed and corrupt.

Rossi has said he thinks the election problems have been fixed and his campaign is on the record saying it does not fear this year's election can be stolen. Now that we know the billboards are coming from Rossi's most powerful ally, I wonder what he and others will say about the effort.

At Sound Politics, Eric Earling wrote last month that the signs were counter-productive for Rossi backers because they convey "a message Rossi seems clearly trying to avoid." Earling understands the sentiment behind the signs, though.

Folks on the west side of the Cascades, even many Republicans, sometimes fail to grasp the annoyance and resentment those east of the mountains have with politics and policy in our state that at times seem dominated by King County liberals. This frustration runs deeper than many west-siders care to acknowledge or admit.

The professional-looking signs, however, inevitably receive attention on the other side of the state where huge chunks of the population don't grasp the root of the resentment.


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Posted by Glenno

11:18 AM, Jul 10, 2008

The signs have more to do reminding eastern Washington that it has a larger population then Seattle...We can control our own destiny.

Seahawk football stadium proves this point. With out Benton County their would be no Quest Field...

PS Benton County will remember that Gregoire dropped the ball the $2 Billion dollar Avera plant by not stepping up to the plate...but she is stepping up for the Boeing Tanker rebid.

Posted by Paul

11:44 AM, Jul 10, 2008

Just an observation: I believe they are talking about the fact that if E. WA turnout had matched W. WA turnout in '04, then Rossi would have been Governor. E. WA voters were apathetic about Dino's chances in '04 due to them being largely ignored by the campaign and were not aware of how close it had become on the west side. If turnout in Spokane, Yakima, and the Tri-Cities had been of equal percentage to Seattle, Tacoma, or Everett, then Dino would be running for re-election right now.

Thus, E. WA missed its chance to be the difference in the race and this is a reminder that our votes do matter.

Posted by MadDogM13

12:46 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Yeah, those poor Eastern Washingtonians have it rough what with having those evil Seattle liberal shipping most of their tax contributions east of the mountains to subsidize their less-prosperous neighbors' roads, state services, etc.. Maybe if those hardy Easterners are serious about how much they hate Puget Sound, they'll push for having to pay their own way for a change. I'm not holding my breath

Posted by Casey

1:24 PM, Jul 10, 2008

I have no Problem With those to the east become there own state so they can stop using my tax dollars. They bitch and complain about being ignored, but have forgotten a lesson my parents told me a long time ago when i would complain to them. When you start paying for things your self and dont need mom and dad to foot the bill you can do things your way. Untill then dont bit the hand that feeds you. And just be greatfull that us Unmoral liberals Pay for your Childern to go to school, and build your roads.

Posted by Seattlelite

2:45 PM, Jul 10, 2008

It's well-known that Republicans have selective memories when it comes down to historical FACTS of how the '04 election panned out. For example:

FACT: The Democratic Party was in its full legal right to have a recount done. They paid for it and if found that counts were higher than the opponents', they get their money back. It's a state law.

FACT: The WA State Secretary of State who happens to be a Republican, certified the results and declared Gregoire the winner. He clearly did his job as he was elected to do by Republicans.

FACT: The State GOP lost their heads but won their proposal for hand-picking a judge in conservative Chelan County to come up with the final conclusion. Not only did the Chelan judge decide in favor of Gregoire, he also added about 8 votes to the final tally.

No one stole the election. It was the GOP's own party members who certified the results of the election. The Reds would be more than happy to turn a blind eye to this as long as it meets THEIR agenda. Pathetic.

Posted by Ryan

2:49 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Wow MadDogM13 and Casey, way to keep it classy! You have represented yourselves very well.

Seattlelite, you had a great argument. Then you threw in a cheap shot at the end, which totally derails your personal credibilty. Leave that part out next time and more people will be willing to listen to you.

Posted by C'mon

2:52 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Personally I think this election should focus more on Gregoire's abysmal record of no accomplishments....unless you call turning a huge surplus into a $2.7 BILLION DEFICIT situation for the upcoming bienium an accomplishment.
I think it is good to remind voters about what happened in 2004.
But it's more important to remind them that Gregoire went on a massive spending spree from 2005-2008 putting us in this Budget Trainwreck situation.

Posted by C'mon

2:55 PM, Jul 10, 2008

And if you don't think voter fraud happens, take a look at this that was posted on SoundPolitics.

http://blog.usefulwork.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=11064

It's a Progressive DEMOCRATIC PARTY Activist.
Look at the evidence.
How many times does it happen?
Finally, a prosecution.
Is the guy guilty??
What do you think?

Posted by jamesb

2:59 PM, Jul 10, 2008

My guess, and perhaps my wish, is that this kind of thing will back fire on Rossi. I’m sure there are a lot of folk still ticked off about the ’04 election but even greater numbers of folk are going to be turned off by a “spilled milk” campaign.

Posted by jamesb

3:22 PM, Jul 10, 2008

C’mon
This proves what? Do you recall the only votes taken away by the judge in the ’04 election suit were from Rossi and the Independent? The republicans were suggesting “institutional fraud” in ’04 and were unable to prove their case. There were republicans in that election who admitted committing voter fraud. Should we paint all republicans with the same brush for the actions of a few?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/opinion/13tue1.html

Voter fraud is largely a red herring

Posted by BacktoReality

3:26 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Reading some of these idiot postings by the westies doesn't suprise me. I used to live on the westside, live in Central Wash now and love it. Sunny, slower pace in the some aspects. MadDog13 and Casey are just ignorant morons, we all pay taxes, believe me when I tell you Eastside has awoke and will vote your Gov out of office. Your Gov took a 2 billion dollar surplus to a 1.5 billion deficit. For the most part Westies are good people, I'm talking about King County who are just simple tax-n-spend socialist libs, where I hope your ol mayor Knickles just keeps raising more and more your taxes. Always room on the Eastside.

Posted by John

3:42 PM, Jul 10, 2008

Seattle Liberals, are spoiled brats, they do not pay taxes and rely on the rest of the state to pay the tab.

If Seattle was a State that would be hilarious to watch.


Posted by C'mon

3:47 PM, Jul 10, 2008

BackToReality--
Sorry to correct you but Gregoire has actually taken us from the huge surplus to a $2.7 BILLION Deficit. You gave her a $1.2 BILLION break she doesn't deserve.

jamesb--
I agree one example is merely anecdotal.
But it is one of your Washington Progressive Comrades!
Haven't seen the Seattle times or P-I pick up on this.
If it were a Republican, it would be on the front page.
At least the Peninsula Daily News and Jefferson County/Pt. Townsend Leader covered it.
I see you are not concerned jamesb.

A one-two-three punch of reminding voters about the 2004 Election Fiasco, poor fiscal management/excessive spending creating a $2.7 BILLION deficit out of a surplus and her sweetheart deal with the tribes followed by huge campaign contributions will turn the tide if properly presented.


Posted by jamesb

4:20 PM, Jul 10, 2008

C’Mon,

My Washington state progressive comrades? Where do you get that?

I would be concerned if you had demonstrated some kind of systemic problem. Don’t see how one guy, from either party, represents the entire party. Do you?

As far as which media outlets cover that story, I’m not a media guy so that has to come out of someone else’s pile.

You presented the story to prove what exactly?

Posted by JimD

6:03 PM, Jul 10, 2008

I also think the billboard campaign will backfire.
It reeks of western conservatives mindset that THINKS it knows how easterners think, then has the condescending audacity to TELL them how they think on billboards.

Contrary to popular stereotype of gun-toting, loud-mouth, hillbilly rural folks screaming foul at western Washingtonians in the strongest of terms - most rural eastsiders have a very sophisticated and understated manner of expressing their ethic of fairness, hard work and personal responsibility.

Many will surely be offended by the presumption they believe they had the election stolen from them, when in fact, 2004's virtual tie makes that typically big city exaggeration rather disingenuous.
Worse yet, it makes Rossi and his camp look like the urban whiners and complainers they have little respect for.

Way to go, Rossi!
The more we learn about you, the more we just don't like you.

Posted by Quincy

7:38 PM, Jul 10, 2008

hey eastsiders, if you want things to go your way, convince enough people to vote your way – you almost did it in ’04. the victim pose does not help your cause. i didn’t steal anything. i went and voted like everybody else.

Posted by Pale Rider

9:03 PM, Jul 10, 2008

You righty-tighties really have to stretch to get excited about a single person filling out his wife's ballot. Sure, a number of people have done that, according to the studies. But there was no evidence of it being exclusively the province of a single party. Once again Stefan's little sandbox (litterbox?) playmates have a temper tantrum over nothing.


Besides, you had a true case of attempted voter fraud right here in King County. But the Republican D.A. let Lori Sotelo off the hook on the 2,000 counts of perjury and declined to bring charges.


Face, it guys, you're upset because:


(a) 1/3 of all the voters in the state live in King County. Acreage doesn't vote, people do. And people who live in high-population-density areas tend to be more liberal. Get over it.


(b) you didn't cheat enough to win the election (even though you tried hard). Don't forget the skewed vote pattern in Snohomish County where they were using DRE's at the polls. Now Snohomish County is all mail-in. Missed your chance there.


(c) You know that you are a net importer of tax dollars. But the fact that you don't stand a (legal) chance of taking over preserves your right to whine about the situation even while you reap the benefits of it.


(d) The crashing economy and anticipated deficits are as much a result of the disastrous national economic and energy policies of your draft-dodging boy-wonder President and his oil-company cabinet as anything else. Hey, if we have to tighten our belts here, let's start by making every county tax-neutral.


(e) Washington was judged the 5th-best state in the nation for business by Forbes magazine (up from 12th under DINO Locke). Gregoire finally choreographed getting the teachers the money they had been promised, and got a whole bunch more children covered by medical insurance (even as the businesses succeed in cutting people off).


That's what really smarts, isn't it? You love to hate her because you tried so hard to cheat your way into a win, and YOU STILL LOST. You're even trying to blame her for the Sonics leaving! In reality, she's been the most effective Governor we've had in a long time. Geez, people, get a grip!

Posted by upchuck

10:06 PM, Jul 10, 2008

rale rider, mail voting is still very susceptible to machine fraud during the scanning/counting process.

c'mon, well i guess we'll have to amend gregoire's victory to 128

and yes the signs will backfire... bigtime!

Posted by GR

11:54 PM, Jul 10, 2008

I love all these posts by Seattle liberals about E. WA getting all the tax dollars! Really? If the liberals in this country were nearly as generous with their own money then all of the hard working "rich" Republicans wouldn't have to support all of them. "Tax the Rich" ....um, yeah. Actually the lowest 50% in income, also known as lazy liberals, pay 0% of the taxes!!!

Posted by Ryan

2:06 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Ha, wow Palerider, I'm trying to figure out which part of your message made me laugh the most. I think I'm going to go with "Dino Locke"...you don't get to pass off your political figures when it suites you!

Wait, maybe it was the part about the "most effective governor". Please see the many previous posts about the several billion dollar deficit that's been created under her watch.

Please use your talented humor when you respond, you entertain me!

Posted by Mark

4:20 AM, Jul 11, 2008

I was going to post words similar to Maddog and Casey - but I'll second their sentiments - Eastern Washington infrastructure and public services are subsidized disproportionately by my tax dollars. Pay your own way.

Posted by petel

7:00 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Pay our own way?

Is that the same philosophy you use when deciding on issues such as health care? Or child care? Or Qwest field?

We'll be glad to pay our own way when we no longer have to subsidize your own poor, your own children, and your own stadium.

Posted by EastSider

7:07 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Ah yes, once again the old liberal meme about taxes from the westside paying for the east. Seattle doesn't produce the energy it consumes, it has to rely on the Bonneville Power Administration to keep the lights on. Seattle doesn't produce the food it consumes, it has to rely on the agricultural output of Eastern Washington to keep their bellies full. There aren't enough "p-patches" to feed all the mouths in Seattle. Other than marijuana, there isn't an agricultural industry in Seattle.

So when smarmy liberals sit in their artificial construct of concrete and mortar lecturing us about their taxes and such, they better mind their p's and q's lest reality creep in and make them look even more foolish than they already do.

Posted by Change

7:15 AM, Jul 11, 2008

"You're even trying to blame her for the Sonics leaving! In reality, she's been the most effective Governor we've had in a long time. Geez, people, get a grip!"


EFFECTIVE? At putting the state into debt.

Seven years after the Nisqually Quake, she doesn't even have a plan for the Alaskan Way viaduct. Why is it that San Francisco was able to study, plan and replace the Cypress viaduct in less than 6 years when our Democrat hegemony cannot even make a plan after seven?

TIME. FOR. CHANGE.


Why is it that liberals always tell us how George Bush took a surplus and turned it into a defict and that is bad, but when Gregoire does the same thing, it is called "effective"?

The state DOC is letting felons out prematurely to rape kill and rob the citizens, the social services agencies are neglecting the children they are supposed to be protecting and they are dying. Our transportation system is a mess.

TIME. FOR. CHANGE.

Posted by TRUTH

7:21 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Let's get one thing straight. The LIE that liberals tell about the $2.7 BILLION deficit just "being the norm" around the country is just that, a LIE. The insane liberals try to somehow blame Gregoire's incompetence on Bush. So much for Harry Truman and "the buck stops here" eh?


According to the New York Times:

"More than 40 states have found themselves with more money than they planned as they wound down their regular sessions. Governors in 23 of those states proposed tax cuts, and a majority of states with surpluses chose to shore up their roads, schools and rainy day funds. For example, lawmakers in Utah agreed to a $1 billion bond act to fix state roads and add lane miles, while in Idaho state spending on education outpaced that on Medicaid for the first time in 20 years."


WASHINGTON is NOT on that list. So umm no, it isn't the fault of Bush, as 42 other states reported higher than expected revenues while Gregoire has a $2.7 billion deficit.

Posted by Postman

8:34 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Truth, you missed Washington on that list. We are No. 8. The "deficit" you talk about is a projection.

Posted by Neil

9:30 AM, Jul 11, 2008

Silly people, only Republicans steal elections.

Posted by John

10:36 AM, Jul 11, 2008

"The "deficit" you talk about is a projection."

This projection was before the price of gas was $4.50 gal. and the economy was better than it will be next year so it will hit what 3.7 billion.
Not good times to even think the word DEFICIT however it is a reality.

Posted by Postman

2:28 PM, Jul 11, 2008

John, the projection is actually 10 days old. It is the latest, based on the most recent revenue forecast, etc.

Posted by John

3:51 PM, Jul 11, 2008

Postman,

I remember hearing this 2.7 billion way before 10 days ago.


I know of people who wear yellow sun glasses in the dead of winter, makes everything brighter than it is.:)

Do you have a link please?

Posted by jamesb

4:48 PM, Jul 11, 2008

John,
Here’s a link for you about the projected budget deficit. I’m giving you a link to a PI article as we all know you feel the Times is biased.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_gregoire_taxes.html

Do tell us what you think after reading it. If you want more information, there is a nifty search feature at the top of this very page (the one you are now reading). Although the Times wants to control your thoughts and tell you lies made up by lazy Seattle liberals, their search feature includes sources other than their own paper.

Posted by upchuck

6:40 PM, Jul 11, 2008

GR, yeah Cheney, Ken Lay, Lee Raymond and other GOPers are very "hard" workers... that's why they all look so fit and healthy = )

Posted by John

7:46 PM, Jul 11, 2008


Upchuck:

In America, we have a class of citizens who are allowed to take risk in order to make their living as the people you referenced some make it others do not.

The other classes of citizen’s works for the Unions they’re hard working and slim trim these are the great Americans you’re talking about.

Their Union bosses are the fat cats with no risk.

Posted by Annoy2006

7:49 PM, Jul 11, 2008

Anyone want to credit the GMA for keeping these builders limited over the last few years? See what rampant building did in San Diego?

We all want to live in nice houses, but come on! How much is the house being built 40 miles from Seattle going to pay in road construction fees so the "new owner" can drive to work in their SOV?

Posted by John

8:06 PM, Jul 11, 2008


Jamesb:

I searched everywhere but Times did find old stuff at the PI not this one thanks
You can get a detailed budget at http://www.erfc.wa.gov/

By the time you go through it you forget what you’re looking for, I never found what I was looking for which was the bottom line figures of 2.5 billion.

2.5 or 3 billion no matter how you look at it she has to raise taxes, as we all know she will not take away all she has given.

The big revenue she received last few years will not be back to help her.

I’m starting to worry about the gas tax to pay everything she promised.

With higher fuel cost these taxes are going to drop like a lead balloon.
Then couple the loss of jobs and industry leaving the state not a good picture for her being a rookie.

Posted by upchuck

8:27 PM, Jul 11, 2008

John,

Just to be clear, Ken Lay is a convicted criminal who defrauded thousands of people who worked at his own company. If that's wahat you call a "great American" then I suppose that's telling.

Posted by evergreen_representative

8:49 PM, Jul 11, 2008

The Corporate Mainstream News Media, which is solidly behind the corporate Democrat and Republican parties, including their press bloggers that seem to be effectively assigned to benefit one or the other corporate party, have practiced their usual corporate catering journalism. So the Party of Commons, on behalf of Secretary of State candidate, Mark Greene, of the Party of Commons, is submitting Mark's campaign report here, among other places, as iit relates to the entire mess of the election system during the Sam Reed (Washington Secretary of State) and Ron Sims (King County Executive) administrations.

The so-called alternative, cutting-edge on-line news outfits, such as Crosscut, are just as bad as the usual CMNM suspects. There's nothing alternative about them.

By the way, it doesn't take a soothsayer or a rocket scientist to tell you which 2 candidates the Times (and the PI) are going to endorse for Secretary of State in the August 19th Primary; they'll be Reed and Osgood. The Common People of Washington will have a different idea, however.

Mark Greene is the chairman of the Party of Commons. The Party of Commons is economically progressive, culturally traditional, anti-interventionist, for common sense defense and pro-Bill of Rights.

SECRETARY OF STATE CAMPAIGN: THE REPORT

DEFENSE OF TOP 2 PRIMARY

The reinstated "Top 2" Primary will be defended; this primary once again ensures our opportunity to vote for ANY candidate in primaries, a tradition in Washington. This primary, by its inherent nature, ensures that minor parties and independents are a part of the opening process of the electoral season. Voters will NOT have to sign statements or choose a slate committing themselves to a particular party's candidates. Primaries are not an offbeat stop on the way to the main event, they are a fundamental part of the election process, as they are a part of the winnowing process that determines which candidates should be in the General Election. The Democrat Secretary of State candidate (Osgood) is against "Top 2".

DEFENSE OF INITIATIVE SYSTEM

I am a strong supporter of initiatives (the Common People's Government) and I would do everything in my power as Secretary of State to rebuff attempts by some in the Legislature to weaken the Initiative system. In fact, I would try to make it somewhat EASIER to put initiatives on the ballot. Some Democrats in the Washington Legislature are trying to make it effectively harder to put initiatives on the ballot.

DEFENSE OF GENERAL POSTAL MAIL VOTING

Voting by mail should be an option for all voters. I am a supporter of general mail voting, as long as there is a recourse for voters to vote in the traditional method at regional polling stations. Also, mail voting should have plenty of checks and balances to ensure the integrity of the election system. As with any kind of voting system, there will be problems uniquely identified to a particular system, and they must be counteracted with actions to keep the same problems from reoccurring, and through robust auditing. The Democrat Secretary of State candidate (Osgood) is against so-called all-postal mail voting, according to an article in the Seattle Times.

CORPORATE REGISTRATIONS

As the registrar of Corporations; also, the Secretary of State's duty, I would see to it that no special favors are given to particular corporate entities, and that the corporate regulations of Washington are set forth in an egalitarian and professional manner.

FRAUD AND WHISTLEBLOWERS DIVISION

I would create a sub-division in the Elections Division that could be called something like the Fraud and Whistleblowers Sub-division. That office would concentrate on monitoring election systems, conducting audits, and communicating with whistleblowers.

Whistleblowers who dutifully, and sometimes courageously, report problems or abuse of the electoral system should be welcomed as an important part of ensuring the integrity of it. If I'm elected, whistleblowers will have a special place in the Secretary of State's Office.

People who have special skills in monitoring elections and knowledge of voting apparatuses would be welcome additions to my office; someone like Bev Harris, a renowned investigator of voting fraud across America, would make a good Deputy Secretary of State. These are the kind of employees that would ensure that Washington has the most integral voting system in the country.

RANDOM PROFESSIONAL CHECKS ON VOTING MACHINES

The Secretary of State's Office, as the state office in charge of elections, among other things, it should be responsible for vigilantly safeguarding our electoral rights as set forth in our federal and state laws, and there should be a sincere upholding of the federal and state constitutions. Constant, professional and random checks of the voting systems in Washington are essential. There is no democracy if the votes are not counted correctly or at all. Paper based election systems, such as optical scanning, are a must, so that the votes can be audited and verified. In close elections, within a margin of two percent of winning or qualifying, votes should be verified by a hand count. Voting machines from controversial manufacturers, or with constant problems, should not be allowed for use in Washington.

SPECIAL EMPHASIS ON AUDITING NEEDED

I would make sure that my staff is not overworked and that they understand the importance of making continuous audits and checks so that errors from our office, if any, will be caught as soon as possible. Conscientiousness, professionalism, integrity and devotion to detail would be a priority in my office. I would make sure there is an auditing position, if there is not, now, for each division of the Secretary of State's Office: Elections, Historical Archives, and Corporate Registrations. For cost saving measures, other positions may have to be combined together, in order to accommodate the new emphasis on checking, auditing, and generally making sure that work is error free.

INDIGENT CANDIDATES

Running for office should be relatively easy, but the system to assist prospective candidates who cannot pay the filing fee is not working. Filing fees are tied to the salaries of the office holders, but as the salaries rise continuously, so does the requirement for the number of signatures on petitions. Collecting signatures is hard work and time consuming. While the rigors of the work that the office holders do, and the number of hours they work, may not change if their salary increases, the opposite is true for those who have to use a petition in lieu of the filing fee. Not only that, but the petition system is not fair for those who are working, but still economically unable to pay the filing fee, and for those who are elderly or disabled. Working people often don't have time to collect signatures, especially as the requirement raises with the office holders' pay raises. The elderly and disabled may face physical obstacles to collecting signatures. It's a degenerative system and unfair on the face of it. If elected to Secretary of State, I will propose a new system for those who want to run for office and cannot afford the filing fees.

HISTORICAL ARCHIVES

As this office is the preserver of Washington's history, I would see to it that the history of all Washingtonians is revered and that special emphasis be given to this function of the Secretary of State's duties.

VOTING REGISTRATION SYSTEM

The incumbent Secretary of State's relatively recent programs of reducing the voter roll of invalid registrations may have been rushed and did not take into account considerations that would be more vigilant in protecting voting rights, generally.

New applications are, also, of a concern. Reed was reprimanded by the United States District Court for trying to deny new voter registration applications if they did not exactly match government agency data [Washington Association of Churches versus Sam Reed]. However, government agency data is not necessarily correct and an individual's voting rights should not be automatically denied.

Felon voting restoration should come about upon their release from imprisonment, home arrest, or release from electronic monitoring systems.

The Secretary of State should be more mindful of voters' rights and should not rush to overhaul voting registration systems, especially to deny a potential registrant or void a current registration, without careful and deliberate checking of each registrant.

[end of report]

www.PartyofCommons.com

Posted by evergreen_representative

8:57 PM, Jul 11, 2008

P.S. (to evergreen_representative posting)

CLARIFICATION:
(grammatical/typo):

...as it relates to the entire mess of the election system during the Sam Reed (Washington Secretary of State) and Ron Sims (King County Executive) administrations.

Party of Commons Campaign Blog:

http://360.yahoo.com/poc_senator

Posted by John

9:00 PM, Jul 11, 2008

Posted by John

9:16 PM, Jul 11, 2008

upchuck:
Risk takers like Dick Cheney and Ken some make it other do not (ken) did not. The other guy I do not know of.

Fat cats (no risk) = Un healthy

Great Americans I said where Union workers (slim trim)

I played on your words.

Posted by JimD

9:21 PM, Jul 11, 2008

"...I remember hearing this 2.7 billion way before 10 days ago. .."

John, you probably heard 2.5 billion - the number thrown around before the more recent, updated projection of 2.7 mil.

"...This projection was before the price of gas was $4.50 gal..."

The new projection is $200 million more than the old projection, updated ten days ago to include rising fuel prices. ($2,700,000,000 - $2,500,000,000 = #20,000,000)

The reason this projection is updated (like it was ten days ago) is to account for changing conditions like rising fuel prices, changing tax revenue, changing expenditures...etc.
I agree that as the economy continues to sink, future updates to our state's projected debt will probably be even worse.
If gasoline and diesels sales continue to slow, there would be even more decline in fuel tax revenue than there ALREADY is at $4.50 gal.

Posted by C'mon

7:09 AM, Jul 12, 2008

JimD--
The average Washingtonian Voter has been belt-tightening for some time now...knowing the cost of living was rising rapidly.

The problem for Gregoire is she showed ZERO leadership and a high degree of arrogance in not belt-tightening sooner to a much higher degree.
Her attitude is.....we will wait until next biennium and deal with it. Irresponsible.
She should have demanding a Supplementary Budget which made more cuts over a year ago.
Instead, she increased spending. Now the cure of what she could have prevented will be much harsher.
Typical of a 39-year Government Bureaucrat.
They live from Budget to Budget and assume tax increases are a slam-dunk.

The latest Rasmussen Poll shows Gregoire leading by 6 points. Watch it evaporate as she dodges responsibility for our Budget woes.

Posted by JimD

8:32 AM, Jul 12, 2008

C'mon,
Me thinks republicans protest too much when spewing the republican fiscal responsibility line in the face of overwhelming evidence of their contradictory performance - at the federal level for example.
If you think the state should be run more like a business - a typical Rossi theme - you'd do what any responsible, successful business does; run a line of credit you can draw on during periods of a negative net, and invest surplus in long-range improvements.
Your suggestion that the state should alternately cut expenditures in times of debt, then lower the cost to consumer's (taxpayer's) in times of surplus, is not how a large, successful enterprise is managed.
I know, I know -- you're objective is to make the state less of a "successful enterprise" by strangling it's revenue while demanding immediate adjustment for temporary debt - as if this would eliminate wasteful spending.
But in the real world, this herky-jerky fiscal management frequently costs more in the long run as real-time projects are delayed and then have to be re-started, programs and projects are canceled or transferred to entities that will cost us more in the long run...etc.
Better to manage with dedicated, long-range goals backed-up with dependable funding, to best maximize efficiency for the objectives at hand - that requires the flexibility to average-out the peaks and valleys.

If you want to responsibly down-size government, wouldn't it be better to target specific expenditures you'd like to see cut, instead of simply insisting SOMETHING be cut, then leaving those critical decisions to the very democrats you don't think aren't fiscally responsible enough to make good decisions in the first place?
Your agenda to cut government regardless of the consequences to consumers is clear, and your chainsaw approach is simply the worst possible way to do it.

Posted by upchuck

10:33 AM, Jul 12, 2008

john, i know you're a lost casue, but i recognize that many smarter people buy your ideology simply becasue they never hear the real story. so i'll humor you with my humble attempt to shed a little light....

lee raymond received a 300 million dollar retirement package from exxon. you cons always complain about the gas tax that benefits all citizens of wa, but this one guy took 4x the amount of annual wa state gas tax revenues all for himself. there's no way anyone can honestly say that he made his money by hard work and personal risk - more like hard work on behalf of thousands of workers in his co and consumers across america and risk that he would never be personally accountble for, but that thousands of us troops have paid the ultimate price for.

one point to put the corrupt union boss myth to rest: i am a casual long shore worker and the union leaders in our union take a pay cut compared to the wages they would make on the docks when they serve in leadership positions - that's the way ot should be. but even if some union leaders make a little premium (say in the 6 figure range) it's alwys those guys who get labeled greedy bastard by you cons and never the guys like ken lay, lee raymond or cheney who make most of their money by diverting public resources to the hands of the few greedy fat cats feeding off of the labor or tax resources of the many.

Posted by John

3:40 PM, Jul 12, 2008

I did hear some people talking (crying) about the head of Exxon a while back.
Even though it means nothing to me, do you know how many hours in a day the man worked? Or how many birthday parties he missed of his family due to business trips. Or what hardships he endured in his career? I don’t think so; all you know is what they gave to him as retirement. I don’t see the workers in the oil fields walking off the site in protest so why are you upset?

What someone makes is his or her business. If this bothers you do not buy Exxon.
I cannot see spending $5.00 for a cup of coffee so I do not, that’s a simple solution I don’t getup set with Mr. Shultz you can get whatever price you want for services and products in America. Doesn’t this make you want to fall to your knees, kiss the ground everyday, and sing God Bless America?

Some movie stars makes millions for acting are you going to stop go to the movies or complain about his income for a 2-hour movie? I know a lot of politicians on the left hate people who make more income than them and want to stop this from happening. In this country everyone has the ability to grow up and lead the life they want. Some are risk takers like Bill Gates, Henery Ford who have a dream. Others are followers who just want to get by. Others are in-between and some just want to live off others.

I’m not sure what your saying or implying here.
“ but that thousands of us troops have paid the ultimate price for.” ????????????????

“one point to put the corrupt union boss myth to rest: i am a casual long shore worker and the union leaders in our union take a pay cut compared to the wages they would make on the docks when they serve in leadership positions”

I think its un kind of you union guys to allow this to happen.
I thought under a union you all where equal? I would think the real reason for the pay cut is he’s not busting his butt moving cargo right.

I’m talking about the higher echelon fat cats who never experience any risk. When you go on strike the fat cats still get their check don’t they? If you get locked out the Fat cats still get their checks don’t they? The only risk they have is driving to work on highways that haven’t been improved in over 30 years.

I wish you where making 50 or 100 million or whatever your heart wants to make upchuck. Even your fat cats can make that and it won’t bother me.

I think you have it wrong upchuck the left are the ones who call anyone making more income than they “greedy bastards.”

“never the guys like ken lay, lee raymond or cheney who make most of their money by diverting public resources to the hands of the few greedy fat cats feeding off of the labor or tax resources of the many.”

Please tell me how these two guys diverted public resources?

Posted by JimD

7:37 PM, Jul 12, 2008

John,
The head of Enron, Ken Lay, committed multiple felonies, was prosecuted and sentenced to jail.
He broke a string of laws - and not just technicalities either, but laws and regulations there to protect consumers from white collar criminals.
He intentionally and deliberately falsified numbers and literally stole real money.
Enron wasn't a company that simply went broke.
It was run by Lay and other top management as a criminal enterprise.
Period.
I'm sure some mobsters also worked long hours and sacrifice their personal and family life for their "careers".
But that doesn't make them any less guilty of the crimes they commit.
You MUST be confusing Ken Lay with someone else, because no one - and I mean no one who knows the facts - would call him anything but the crook and thief his trial proved him to be beyond any doubt what so ever.
Sadly, he died unexpectedly before the date he was to report to a federal penitentiary to begin serving his sentence.
(Sadly for his victims, that is -- the bastard never had to pay for his crime)

Posted by upchuck

8:54 PM, Jul 12, 2008

john your posts do more to advance my point of view then my own... but i will add a few points anyway.

first in response to your comment: "I don’t see the workers in the oil fields walking off the site in protest"

...good point, becasue you know, maybe that's why a seattle film crew was recently detained in nigeria. the well documented truth is that indigenous people are being displaced, oppressed, and even killed in large numbers in oil producing regions all over the world by paramilitary and corrupt gov forces often directly or at least indirectly funded, trained, and equipped with oil company dollars. there have been many strikes from oil workers in iraq and elsewhere when they are lucky enough to at least be employed by the companies that come in to pillage their local resources, but often they are simply displaced, violently if neccessary.

second, i don't have animosity (nor do most on the left) for those who are successful. however what is not acceptable is people getting ahead (way ahead, like more money than the gdp of many countries) by cheating others. it's not that we disagree with rhetoric about making it easier for hard working business pepole to be successful, it's more that we understand this rhetoric from the right to translate into making it easier for mega corporations to take control of public resources: instead of public power utilities we get enron power and blackouts in cali. instead of public education we get pat robertson making a buck teaching about adam and eve in science class, and instead of the best army in the world hunting osama in tanks and hummers we get blackwater in suburbans getting shot up in bagdad. wow could i go on....

so going on: how did cheney divert public resources to his hands??? by giving contracts to halliburton to do all sorts of crap in iraq (that for the most part never even got done, or when it did it was subcontracted to poor 3rd world peasants at pennies on the dollar so the halliburton execs could make millions. is that what you call taking risks to get ahead? it's not like they sold a product on the private market to willing customers. cheney used to be the head of halliburton, got paid 50 million to quit and be vp, then as vp he oversaw govt contracts (no bid mind you) to guess who? the company that he got 50 mil from.

finally, as to the longshore union... i'm really new to the docks so i really have to admit that i'm not the one to answer all the why's and how's of their operations. i say "their" because i'm not even a registered member of the union yet - just a trained casual who can make it up the ranks if i stick it out long enough. what i do see is that they give everyone equal opportunity to prove themselves to be hard working and committed enough to get the job done safely and efficiently. those with more experience who have paid their dues (metaphorically nor literally) advance in pay and work opportunities. also, i know the union is committed to justice for working people everywhere not just for our own union - that's part of why they went on strike for one day in may to protest the continued iraq occupation - in solidarity with iraqi longshore workers by the way. i'm sure this ethic of supporting all working people plays into why they don't give big payola out to union leadership - they want people who interested in service, not get rich schemes to be their representatives. that's how it should be in olympia and wa dc too.

Posted by John

9:29 PM, Jul 12, 2008

JimD,

Your twisting what I said.
Here is what I said in one post.

In America, we have a class of citizens who are allowed to take risk in order to make their living as the people you referenced some make it others do not.

Then I clarified the above in another post..
Risk takers like Dick Cheney and Ken some make it other do not (ken) did not. The other guy I do not know of. (by name)

Here is my last post, where is Ken Lay name? I think your getting Enron and Exxon mixed up.

I did hear some people talking (crying) about the head of Exxon a while back.
Even though it means nothing to me, do you know how many hours in a day the man worked? Or how many birthday parties he missed of his family due to business trips. Or what hardships he endured in his career? I don’t think so; all you know is what they gave to him as retirement. I don’t see the workers in the oil fields walking off the site in protest so why are you upset?

Then Upchuck said:
“never the guys like ken lay, lee raymond or cheney who make most of their money by diverting public resources to the hands of the few greedy fat cats feeding off of the labor or tax resources of the many.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Lay has been vilified and rightly so he’s with his maker and I’m sure he’s in some HOT WATER. I didn’t think it was necessary to go there. His actions did divert public resources, law enforcement and the courts we all know this.

Please tell me how these two guys (Lee Raymond and Cheney) diverted public resources?


I take it then you agree with everything else I mentioned
in my post to upchuck finally your coming around. :)

Posted by John Dokes

10:06 PM, Jul 12, 2008

They should go up, somebody has to tell the truth.

Posted by John

10:30 PM, Jul 12, 2008

Upchuck,
you said
“.good point, becasue you know, maybe that's why a seattle film crew was recently detained in nigeria. the well documented truth is that indigenous people are being displaced, oppressed, and even killed in large numbers in oil producing regions all over the world by paramilitary and corrupt gov forces often directly or at least indirectly funded, trained, and equipped with oil company dollars. there have been many strikes from oil workers in iraq and elsewhere when they are lucky enough to at least be employed by the companies that come in to pillage their local resources, but often they are simply displaced, violently if neccessary.”

Very Good point upchuck,

You are correct on this one. Isn’t too bad that the left and their environmentalist extremists have prevented Americans to drill here in the good old USA and allowed these high paying jobs to be shipped overseas. I’m behind you in your fight to bring these jobs home now. We need to drill 24/7 and do many other things to curtail our imports of oil.
It is horrible what these foreign governments are doing to their own people I agree.

As you know when you pay union dues God only knows whose hand it ends up in like the Big Oil sending money to a broker.

You said:

“second, i don't have animosity (nor do most on the left) for those who are successful. however what is not acceptable is people getting ahead (way ahead, like more money than the gdp of many countries) by cheating others. it's not that we disagree with rhetoric about making it easier for hard working business pepole to be successful, it's more that we understand this rhetoric from the right to translate into making it easier for mega corporations to take control of public resources: instead of public power utilities we get enron power and blackouts in cali. instead of public education we get pat robertson making a buck teaching about adam and eve in science class, and instead of the best army in the world hunting osama in tanks and hummers we get blackwater in suburbans getting shot up in bagdad. wow could i go on....”

So are we talking about one or two successful people cheating or all?

Ya know, if we where perfect we wouldn’t need jails. I’m not sure how we can correct this unless we turn over all our assets to the Government who we all know are trust worthy. Can you can tell me one Government Dept. other than our great Military thanks to President Ronald Reagan who is up to the challenge of giving good products or services equal to what we pay in our tax dollars that will be held to the same level you think Corp. should be?

One of my local pet grips is:
I would like the state of Washington to get out of the liquor business and stop stealing paychecks from the poor from State gambling.

Nothing wrong with this cause it helps pay 100% of our schools remember that lie 35 years ago? Where is your outrage on this and what have you done to stop them?

I never seen any President of any big Union go into JC penny's to buy suits.


Posted by JimD

8:43 AM, Jul 13, 2008

"...I would like the state of Washington to get out of the liquor business and stop stealing paychecks from the poor from State gambling. ..."
My God...here's two more things we agree about!
Sort of - the lotto was never promised to "pay 100% of our schools," but it clearly was sold as a way to eliminate the need for school levied ballot measures.
I don't think the state - any state - should run a gambling enterprise like the Washington State Lottery - although you must admit, if you make a voluntary tax fun enough, people line-up to pay it.

I used to work in the alcohol business as a retailer, and although the Washington State Liquor Board has recently become much more progressive than it once was, it's still exists to generate revenue by regulating morality and choice - a remnant of the "blue laws" days.
I don't mind the high tax slapped on hard liquor, as much as I object to the state regulating how it's bought, handled and consumed separate from the criminal statues enforced by regular police.

If I didn't understand your inclusion of Ken Lay in your list of guys who work hard and deserve credit for it, my apologies.
But I have to go with upchuck on his general belief that power corrupts, and just because someone has the drive and ability to create wealth and jobs, that hard work doesn't give them the right to abuse that power.
Unions, for example, may sometimes be a corrupt entity of their own, but they exists to off-set the ability of management to under-value the worker who's frequently at the mercy of the their power.
Many folk simply cannot walk-off their job if they don't like it if there are no other jobs that offer better.
Unions have traditionally established a base-line of worker value that other employers have to compete with to attract workers.
As union influence on job value diminishes, so too does the pay, benefits and working conditions of the worker's alternatives.
No one disputes that in the early part of the last century, unions were responsible for creating what we now know as the "middle class".
I fear that those with decidedly anti-union positions would also like to dis-assemble the middle-class and return our country to a majority of relatively poor, working folk, controlled by an elite ruling class.
And at the rate we're going, they're doing a good job turning back the clock.

Posted by John

9:11 AM, Jul 13, 2008

Upchuck,


Your posting overlapped mine; I need to type this stuff offline.

I can understand your frustration with the Government awarding contracts to
Halliburton for performing work in a war zone. Please tell me the company that should have been awarded the contracts?

The same with Blackwater whom would you recommend?

If you don’t know please ask Senator Durbin, Schurmer, Murtha, Obama or Kerry

I can wait for a response hopefully it would be this year.

Posted by JimD

9:31 AM, Jul 13, 2008

I watched much of The Sopranos, and I must say - it's one of the best-crafted dramas ever produced for film or television.
Upchuck, the showed chronicled what appeared to be relatively average people like you and me, engaging in the most horrific acts - not just violence, but betrayal, dishonesty, lust...you name it.
It was so "realistic" that mobsters of all ethnic backgrounds were some its biggest fans.
It was not about stereotypical Italian culture like The Godfather.
No old-world music to embellish a scene, no gratuitous reminders of the player's country of origin.
For the most part, the characters have no redeeming characteristics of loyalty to their legitimate ethbnic culture or family values.
The are absolute scum.
The riveting part was - their decay, is our decay ;-)
Their failures as human beings are our own.

I'd highly recommend the series to you, upchuck, and guarantee that if you can stand the violence and language, you'll find it a classic AMERICAN story, where Italian heritage is rendered irrelevant.

And that's what makes the use of its theme song even more offensive in the attack ad on Rossi.
It try's to attach a cheap stereotype to Rossi that was never realized in the show.
No fan of Rossi here - but again, that ad was a disgrace.
They should of used Theme From Titanic.

Posted by JimD

9:33 AM, Jul 13, 2008

ooops... so sorry, I dropped the wrong clipboard text into my post. please disregard, sorry

Posted by John

9:55 AM, Jul 13, 2008

Jimd,

We agree on two items

I would like to know how much savings the state would see if we where not in the liquor business just monitoring the stores. The lottery they will never get rid of it is their lifeblood even though they’re sucking the blood of their citizens.

I also have grips with public officials who learn on taxpayer’s dime then write a book about their experience in public service and KEEP every dime they make to themselves.
Like Gore, Richard Clarke and others.

Let’s say Vice President Cheney in Sept. 2009 released a book titled “
Why Bush and Rice lied to us about Iraq. Then went on to rip them apart.

The NY Times would call it the Best Book every written by man.
The Liberals would embrace him as a fellow comrade. He would make Millions on the book.
Ok back to books, it should be law that if a public official makes money on his experience in public office 100% should be donated back to that office.
Then let’s see how many books these people publish in the name of telling the truth.
PS just because it's written in a book doesn't make it true.

Posted by JimD

3:43 PM, Jul 13, 2008

"...Like Gore, Richard Clarke and others..."
I think (seriously, pretty sure) they both have donated their proceeds to charity.
Many private sector jobs require a property information agreement in addition to a no-compete clause in the executive's contract - to prevent them from taking inside information to a competing concern or reveal it to the public.
I'm kind of glad government doesn't do this - the latter at least.
We need as much "sunshine" on what happens behind our backs as we can get, in my opinion.
The books can, and do, stand on their own merit as accurate history or fabrication - or in most cases, a bit of both.
The image of Cheney would improve considerably if he found the decency and patriotism to come clean after he left office - in my never be humble opinion. ;-)

Posted by John

4:52 PM, Jul 13, 2008


The answer Gore and Clarke did not donated any of their book revenue to charity however Gore did donate 100% of his half of the noble prize to a environment program
This was to off set his royalties and upfront cash on his book (my guess)
Noteworthy was his Gores giving $357.00 to charity as VP in 1997.
Gore also owns a lot of shares in Occidental Petroleum these where handed down through his family I’m sure.

Clarke gave nothing off his book.

You have no problem for them to make money off our tax dollars?

I too want sunshine but why do they need to write a book to show it if not for the money?

I have said, write the book then donate all of back to the Dept. they where working at. Take a tax deduction for the donation. This did not go over well with my Federal elected officials first time I never received a response (there all democrats) They also share your opinion.

With all the perks they get off of us taxpayers this is an insult.


Vice President Dick Cheney has done nothing wrong and history will bear this out.

Posted by KS

8:07 PM, Jul 13, 2008

Dwelling on the results of the 2004 election is futile. Energy is better channeled by gearing up to be vigilant about voter fraud, because It will happen. How can this be done ?

Whistleblower techniques can be used or volunteering for Election Day monitoring and voter verification. It is safest to assume the King County will not address this unless there is an outcry. So, there needs to be an outcry. Trust but verify !!

Posted by JimD

9:31 PM, Jul 13, 2008

",,,You have no problem for them to make money off our tax dollars?..."

I'm not sure how writing a book about their service - as a soldier, a cop, a street sweeper, a press secretary, a general, a politician....or any other government job they've left - is "making money off our tax dollars"...?

They're making money off their book by writing about their experience and point of view.
did Lee Iacocca "make money off the automobile buyers" when he wrote his first best seller?
I don't see why government should be any different - unless the writer is divulging sensitive state secrets, etc.

And of course, I have to ask, since you only mention liberal authors:
Do you have a problem with the many prominent conservative ex-politicians, like Newt Gingrich, who've "made money off the taxpayers" promoting conservative ideology in their best-selling books?

Short answer - I don't have a problem with anyone writing a book about anything they want.
Books are good things.

Posted by JimD

9:46 PM, Jul 13, 2008

....And they can do with the money as they see fit.
They earned it fair and square WRITING A BOOK.
I even think the laws prohibiting a criminal from capitalizing on his exploits with a book are wrong.
The victim's families or other interested parties should take him to civil court and get a judgement against the proceeds (as they did against all future earnings by O.J.) if they feel they deserve it.
I'm also against most pornography statutes and the like, on principle of course.
Books are free speech.
The sale of books is capitalism at work.
Hands off all books - in my opinion.
(I guess that makes me somewhat of a libertarian)

Posted by John

11:00 PM, Jul 13, 2008

“Do you have a problem with the many prominent conservative ex-politicians, like Newt Gingrich, who've "made money off the taxpayers" promoting conservative ideology in their best-selling books?”

Of course not it is ideology.

I have no problem with private person doing anything legal.

If you look at all of the books that have come out in the last 8 years from within federal government the only reason for the book was to make a buck of someone’s understanding what may or may not have happen with high percentage of finger pointing being speculation all done on the taxpayers dime. Make the book is fine but donate the proceeds. Whistle blowers do not write books to spill the beans. I’m talking about both parties. The only reason for picking on liberals is it is easy who else knows the ropes to screw taxpayers better than themJ

Posted by JimD

11:11 PM, Jul 13, 2008

That's an interesting way to look at it.
I guess I'm against the government sticking its nose in our business unless it has a damn good reason.
What good reason is there for telling an author what he has to do with the money he makes from a book about his experience in government service, versus any other author?
What's the point?
To discourage folks from writing books about their jobs in government?
Why would we want to do that?
Seems to me that should be encouraged.
In any event - I honestly don't get why you think they shouldn't be able to keep the money.
What good would that serve?

Posted by John

11:28 PM, Jul 13, 2008

It boils down to one thing our tax dollars should be spent on doing the peoples business. If they reap outside income from doing our business I think it is wrong.

Example:
We have a career political operative he wants to make 75 thousand on helping a private company run like government so he uses skills that he learned in the dept.of health. Tells the company how to do it nothing against the law just stuff to make them run like Government. You see anything wrong other than the company is nuts ?

Posted by JimD

10:15 AM, Jul 14, 2008

If someone makes money writing a book about what they learned in government, it is NOT paid for by our tax dollars.
The employee still did the SAME work for the SAME amount of taxpayer money, whether they wrote the book or not.
If idiots want to buy the book, that's between them and the writer.
The government should not get involved (except of national security information, etc).

I see the connection you're trying to make - a guy gets an interesting job speaking for the President, paid for by our tax dollars.
Then he leaves the job, writes a best seller, and keeps the money.
I understand your premise - he's enriching himself off a job we paid him to do.
I'm saying that's fine with me.
His political ideology, how many books he sells and who buys them is irrelevant.
I'm fine with the principle since my tax dollars paid him to do the job anyway, whether he wrote the book or not.

There's also a higher principle involved here.
Controlling who gets to keep money made from their expression of free speech drifts a little to close to totalitarianism for me.
The control of books has been a traditional way for some pretty awful governments to control their people.
Better we error on the side of constitutional principle, than enter this slippery slope.

I'd feel the same if a disgraced democratic administration was leaving office and we were expecting a slew of books from ex-civil servants spilling the beans.

I'm frankly more concerned with career government moving to private industry as lobbyists for military suppliers and such - where our future tax dollars are at stake - than an ex-government employee making money off some skanky book about what he did when he was on our payroll.

The principle is more important than the specific political ideology involved.

Posted by John

10:38 AM, Jul 14, 2008

I have very little tolerance for Government as everything they do except for our law enforcement (FBI and Police) and Military needs to be fixed every so many years because it should never have existed to begin with.

This spills over to my resentment of public servants as you can see. We have so many laws on the books from these people they do not know what they have passed.
I do understand your point of view.

Posted by JimD

10:55 AM, Jul 14, 2008

I think most of us share at least some of your frustration and resentment.
You're pretty far on one end while I'm way over on the other side.
But everyone can agree - to one degree or another - that some of our tax dollar is wasted and mis-spent.
Everyone has different priorities.
You may resent excessive social services, while I resent my tax dollars being spent to enrich huge multi-national corporations...etc.
We're not all of one mind, and never will be.

I think the question is - compared to what?
Which country would we be more proud to call our own?
For all our faults, we've got a government, society and country that functions pretty damn good.
Thank God (literally) for empowering our founding fathers to create a system that allows us to speak freely and pick government representatives we think can do a better job than the bums we always seem to get stuck with.
It's an eternal struggle making this country work.
And perhaps like the ever-changing nature of life itself - it's about the journey, not the destination.

VOTE VOTE! VOTE! ;-)

Posted by John

11:27 AM, Jul 14, 2008

I agree, however I do not stop at social services it is the other stuff too like the bail outs where doing today and for the past few years. If congress where in session for 5 days a year with no overtime it may work better than today.

I talked about Risk just the other day well forget it we have no risk in this country anymore.
Do not read more into my resentment than I have said. Our country and government is the best of the best even in our low points.
Both parties are horrible role models both have evil however the Republicans are little better on the right side of issues most of the time but, not lately.

Posted by JimD

11:56 AM, Jul 14, 2008

This may sound a little naive and simplistic - but I truly believe MOST folks who get into government (politicians) do so with the high purpose of true patriotism and a desire to make this a better country.
The problem may not be so much that they're incompetent, "evil" or have the wrong priorities - but that they face an almost impossible task of trying to change the status-quo or make things work better.

Say what you want about Congress' short work week - but they're spending their other time meeting with citizens and all manner of work-related activities, including fund-raising they HAVE to do to stay in office to implement their agenda ...and maybe even a little time with their families if they're lucky.
They come back to a pile of complex problems requiring huge staffs to sort through and 40,000 full-time Washington lobbyists to explain it all to them.
Talk about a job from hell.

I think much of our continuous disappointment with government and the politicians who run it isn't due to them not living up to the job - but that the job itself is virtually impossible to perform in the first place.

Herding cats is harder than it looks.

Our job is to elect those we feel best able to enact our values and beliefs.
If they come-up short - and EVERY single one does - it's surely not because NONE of them are doing their best.
Rather, I truly believe most are actually doing the best they can.

Posted by John

12:21 PM, Jul 14, 2008

That is the problem trying to make bad laws better it should not have been law to begin with.

Some people are upset with congress at times when they do nothing, this is when government works best.

When they should fix something that will help us they don ‘t until it’s unfixable like drilling for oil today.

The state of affairs is depressing and knowing John McCain will be elected is not going to fix this mess where in however Obama would be a disaster to our country.

"Rather, I truly believe most are actually doing the best they can." Even a broken clock is correct twice a day :)

Posted by JimD

1:26 PM, Jul 14, 2008

"...Some people are upset with congress at times when they do nothing, this is when government works best.
When they should fix something that will help us they don ‘t until it’s unfixable like drilling for oil today...."

Well, the problem with republican belief that congress works best when it does nothing at all, is that living in that mode makes congress less able to act when it needs to.
It gets used to grid-lock, and when it IS time to act - everyone's still in gridlock mode and unable to reach across the isle and work together.

I don't think McCain would help this situation because he represents the same basic republican politics of Bush.
He's absolute, iron-fisted and unable to compromise his beliefs - the very characteristic that's led to today's gridlock.
Just saying, "let's work together" doesn't make it happen.

Both parties have to give a little to find a compromise position, and the culture of congress and the senate no longer works that way, thanks to Newt's "51%" strategy for aggressive republican control - his shameful contribution to the death of truly bi-partisan politics.

Off-shore oil drilling is a controversial topic.
There are many pros and cons.
It is NOT a forgone conclusion that it's a good idea.
That is an opinion - not a fact - since there are many other considerations, including the FACT that it would produce little impact on the world oil supply which determines the price of oil.
What little extra oil we'd eventually extract from our coast-lines (and it's not very much) would mostly be sold to China and India anyway....etc.

And the republican governor of Ca-li-forn-ia absolutely opposes it, as do most residents of California who have the final say anyway.
The better off-limits source for oil is the Alaskan wilderness, where McCain still (inexplicably) opposes drilling.

We were on-track back in the '70's with programs to improve fuel efficiency and energy alternatives.
Then Reagan and the rest of 'em saw oil prices hit rock bottom and decided it was a wasted effort.
Germany and many other European countries stayed on-track and now are reaping the rewards of more nuclear and solar, and high fuel efficiency in their transportation and industry.
Did you know Germany is number-one in solar energy?
We're playing catch-up.
We can't simply drill our way out of failing to reduce our fossil fuel dependence when we had a chance while oil prices were at an all-time low - which they'll never return to again.

The coastal drilling proposals are shams to look like a solution from Bush and mcCain, but offer no solution - or even any effect on future prices - at all.

Posted by John

3:30 PM, Jul 14, 2008

“Well, the problem with republican belief that congress works best when it does nothing at all, is that living in that mode makes congress less able to act when it needs to.
It gets used to grid-lock, and when it IS time to act - everyone's still in gridlock mode and unable to reach across the isle and work together.”

Let’s not get into the whys here is a case in point:
Congress prohibits building of refineries and drilling through USA If this law was never passed we might be in good shape today. Since it was at least 30 years ago the last refinery was built. Oil/Coal has been on the hit list of congress many years.


“I don't think McCain would help this situation because he represents the same basic republican politics of Bush.”

McCain is not like Bush you may want to think so however it doesn’t make it true.

”He's absolute, iron-fisted and unable to compromise his beliefs - the very characteristic that's led to today's gridlock.
Just saying, "let's work together" doesn't make it happen.”

You got to be kidding the problem with McCain he gave up his core values if he had them and has given the Democrats everything they wanted. This is the only way he could get his bills passed.
Democrats meaning of compromise is our way or the hwy.

“Newt's "51%" strategy for aggressive republican control - his shameful contribution to the death of truly bi-partisan politics.”

It died when Carter was elected do not blame Newt.

Over 42 years the Democrats controlled congress at the beginning the Dems where rational in thinking and compromising Scoop and Magee to name two.
Then the far left liberals took over the party and we have the mess where in today.


“Off-shore oil drilling is a controversial topic.
There are many pros and cons.
It is NOT a forgone conclusion that it's a good idea.
That is an opinion - not a fact - since there are many other considerations, including the FACT that it would produce little impact on the world oil supply which determines the price of oil.
What little extra oil we'd eventually extract from our coast-lines (and it's not very much) would mostly be sold to China and India anyway....etc.”

We should forget the world Jim and worry about the USA. As the world has proven to us when they need us where their friends when we need them they say get screwed.

Ok, so let’s just end this now, stop importing Oil, bend over, and kiss our butts goodbye.

We can go back to the Stone Age, as the democrats want. You’ll come up with wind and solar power and the Democrats will never allow a new power grid to get under construction in within 100 years.

“Germany and many other European countries stayed on-track and now are reaping the rewards of more nuclear and solar, and high fuel efficiency in their transportation and industry.
Did you know Germany is number-one in solar energy?”

Yeah and the Democrats had over 42 years running this country and look what has happen to us.

Let me know when the democrats approve a new power grid connecting every American city and town.

We will never live to see it as the lawyers and aclu will see to that.

“The coastal drilling proposals are shams to look like a solution from Bush and mcCain, but offer no solution - or even any effect on future prices - at all.”


Why worry about price of oil, I’m talking about not importing oil.

I would pay whatever to use our oil then pay to the Middle East.

I know, I know the Democrats plan is to increase oil output from our enemies giving them more of our money so they can destroy us sooner. Now we need gridlock to stop this democrat plan.


Posted by JimD

3:57 PM, Jul 14, 2008

That is the most original and unique analysis I've heard to date, and I make it my business to listen to as many as I can.

I really don't know where to begin.
We're completely at odds on this one...and I have to get back to work anyway, and make it a policy to never play on the internet while piloting my 80,000 lb eighteen wheeler.

But I do complement you on the relative quality of that post and the other recent entries you've crafted.
I look forward to debating with you in the future, John.
Thanks for a fun few hours.

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